More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Edited September 5, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Penlan]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

........ That was when I realised I’d failed to keep a note of the shade of grey used for each wagon… 

Whilst painting the wagon, I paint the number under the floor with the same paint... 
I learnt the hard way too 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Penlan

[jwealleans]

I usually paint each wagon with a mix of shades.  If i need to touch up then I make it a patch of a different colour.  There are enough pictures of just that to make me sure that that's what they did.

[Dave Hunt]

Bob Essery told me that he once spoke to a chap who had worked at the Derby wagon works who told him that they had a large tub of paint that was made up from all the stuff left over from other jobs mixed together and that's what was used for touching up after repairs.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

On 04/09/2019 at 08:43, Dave Hunt said:

they had a large tub of paint that was made up from all the stuff left over from other jobs mixed together and that's what was used for touching up after repairs.

 

 

Evidently not working to finescale standards.

 

According to Gary (@BlueLightning), there's no strong counter-evidence to Brighton wagon numberplates not being blue into the 20th century, though the later rectangular ones were black:

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Compound2632]

I’ve assembled the second of the 5&9 LBSCR wagon kits, originally by Eric Gates, for the Open D. I followed the build sequence I used for the Open A. The body castings went together like a dream, though I had a bit more faffing around getting the axleboxes/springs right – photographs are so cruel: one axlebox is still wonky:

 

 

This angle also exposes the compromise of 00 when a kit is designed for the wider gauges – side on that brake block is in the right place. As with the Open A, I’m leaving the brake lever off until the wagon is painted and lettered.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Compound2632
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[57xx]

11 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Bob Essery told me that he once spoke to a chap who had worked at the Derby wagon works who told him that they had a large tub of paint that was made up from all the stuff left over from other jobs mixed together and that's what was used for touching up after repairs.

 

Known as Smudge.

[Compound2632]

45 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

Known as Smudge.

 

I though he was the works cat?

 

But seriously, according to Midland Style, smudge was post-World War 1 Government surplus battleship grey mixed with black paint left overs, making a sombre dark grey, almost black and used for the repainting of repaired wagons. As we know, the white lead-based grey used for new wagons became black by chemical reaction with atmospheric pollutants, so the end result was probably indistinguishable - certainly so in b/w photos.

 

Anyway, that's irrelevant to my c. 1902 modelling period.

[Compound2632]

Thinking ahead about livery for the Open D. There is one good photo in Southern Wagons Vol. 2 of this early type of Open D without the diagonal ironwork, plate 14. This is No. 459, lettered LB&SCR and fairly convincingly without black ironwork. This style of lettering (without the Y) came in in 1903 according to the livery notes in Southern Wagons and on the Brighton Circle website, though it would appear one should expect to see black ironwork. Quoted in the caption, but not really visible in the photo, the overhaul date is either 20/5/03 or 20/5/05. The paintwork does look reasonably fresh, though it has accumulated a good number of shunters' chalk marks. The wagon has a load of hay and is said to be at Arundel, probably in the summer of 1903. Haymaking is an early summer activity (to be done while the sun shines) so if the overhaul date is 20/5/03 and that's also a repaint date (as suggested by the lettering), the wagon would only have been in traffic a few weeks. (The kit packaging carries a photo of a completed model representing this wagon.)

 

In a PM, @BlueLightning stated that the repainting cycle for Brighton wagons was 15 years at this period - that seemed rather at variance with the received wisdom for other companies, around 7 years. I'm glad to say that when challenged, he was able to cite a contemporary source: F.S. Hollandsche, Locomotive History of the London Brighton & South Coast Railway (London, 1903) Hollandsche being the pseudonym of a Brighton Works employee, G.F. Burtt. One can't get much closer to the horse's mouth than that. The implication is that prior to its May 1903 (or 1905) overhaul, No. 459 would have been wearing the shabby remnants of the paintwork it was given c. 1888-90, which would of course have been the Stroudley light grey. If I was to go for this condition, I'm wondering if I ought to have given the model the self-contained buffers - the conventional type may have been fitted at this overhaul. A snag with copying No. 459 directly is that it has Mansell wheels - I'm not aware of a source for 12 mm Mansell wheels, though the model depicted in the kit packaging has them.

 

I rather liked a remark made by @Edwardian yesterday on another thread, which I will adapt to my case: "Physics graduate + metrologist + pre-Grouping railway enthusiast = this kind of post, I'm afraid!"

[BlueLightning]

I could really confuse matters with the ironwork, officially the ironwork stopped being painted black when the body colour darkened (lbscr.org lists this as 1911), however in Southern Style Part 2 there is a picture (Plate 87, page 62) on an Open A with black ironwork, with the post-1911 LBSC lettering, there is also a picture (Plate 86, page 61) of an Open D without black ironwork with the 1903 - 1911 LB&SCR lettering.

 

Enjoy!

 

Gary

[Skinnylinny]

I believe 12mm Mansell wheels are available through Alan Gibson (their part number 4011 in the catalogue, compared to 4004 for the 14mm ones). I'll need to get some for my SER wagons at some point... 

 

The Open D looks lovely, although the blue for the number plate looks rather dark compared to the one I saw at the Bluebell Railway. 

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Skinnylinny

[Compound2632]

Thanks! The sources said "bright blue"; my first attempt was royal blue. I hope you think this is a better shade. 

 

 

I created the number set for Midland numberplates, the digits on which are 2⅛” high. Increasing them to 2½” seems more in proportion.

 

The way I've done these, it would now be extreme faff to change one to "8 tons" for the Open D, so they're probably staying like this. Remember they will only be 5 mm x 3 mm when printed!

Edited September 6, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Skinnylinny]

You're very welcome. They look very good - may I steal the design for my own wagons? I'd probably change the 10 to an 8 because I have a few 8 ton vans to do too, I don't think the Brighton really went in for bigger wagons much! 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

You're very welcome. They look very good - may I steal the design for my own wagons? I'd probably change the 10 to an 8 because I have a few 8 ton vans to do too, I don't think the Brighton really went in for bigger wagons much! 

 

@Skinnylinny I've come round to thinking I will do an 8 ton version - I'm not happy with the spacing of 227 anyway.

 

Unless you have CorelDraw yourself, it could be simpler for me to make up a sheet of your required numbers myself and send it to you as a pdf. The same goes for any of the other numberplates I've done or might do in the future though if there's too much interest I would have to start charging for my time!

[Skinnylinny]

That's very kind of you to offer, thank you. I don't have CorelDraw, but I'm not averse to copying and pasting individual digits to make my own numbers in MS Paint if you are prepared to provide a PNG or some other lossless format, at, say, 600dpi with the numbers on the appropriate coloured background. The issue is that I don't know what numbers I'll need at the moment - I intend to build quite a few wagons over the next few years! 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Skinnylinny

[Ruston]

A question regarding the works plates for your models: Are you printing these on a home computer, or are they designs to be printed professionally as decals?

[Compound2632]

I realised that the cattle wagon should be 6 tons. Further fiddling:

 

 

@Skinnylinny, I could make a sheet of blank numberplates and put the digits on a blue background, for you to cut and paste. That might get a bit tricky where the digits come up close to the surrounding text, as for 6448. CorelDraw can export to png. In Coreldraw, I've drawn the plates at 1 mm/inch, so have to reduce by 1/3 before printing.

 

@Ruston, I've not yet tried a test print so don't know how well these will turn out with my printer - a now quite elderly HP Deskjet 3055A - though I was happy enough with the Midland, LNWR, and S&DJRones I made, printed at best quality onto photographic paper. I then cut the plates out with a sharp craft knife and peeled the shiny top layer off the backing, to give a thin plate to glue onto the wagon. The idea of the grey background is to blend in with the wagon colour if the cutting-out isn't perfect, e.g. on the concave radiused corners of the Midland plates.

 

I have done some real modelling today, though rather tedious: setting up the spring bearings for the batch of four Mousa Midland 3-plank wagons that has been progressing too slowly for too long:

 

 

Previously, I'd threaded the bearing units onto the wire one at a time. With four sets of four to do, I realised it would be easier to thread them on as a group. Even so, after doing eight bearings I had to take a break to check RMWeb and Guardian live politics; after twelve, I needed a walk round the garden. Then with only four left to do, I gradually recovered my sanity.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Ruston]

The reason I ask is because I made up some L&Y plates using Photoshop and saved them as .jpg files, as I have done for many things on my railway such as signs and engine names, both on plain paper and decal paper. When I print these things I put them into a Word document but for whatever reason the wagon plates simply do not print. Other items in the document print but the plates don't. I tried printing them on their own but still nothing.

[Compound2632]

@Ruston, that sounds like one of those really annoying Microsoft hiccups that are beyond my skills to deal with! I do the reduction by 1/3 in CorelDraw, then save as a pdf. This ensures that when I print the pdf there are no untoward scaling issues creeping in. L&Y plates have those rather oddly-shaped 1s...

[billbedford]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I have done some real modelling today, though rather tedious: setting up the spring bearings for the batch of four Mousa Midland 3-plank wagons that has been progressing too slowly for too long:

 

Previously, I'd threaded the bearing units onto the wire one at a time. With four sets of four to do, I realised it would be easier to thread them on as a group. Even so, after doing eight bearings I had to take a break to check RMWeb and Guardian live politics; after twelve, I needed a walk round the garden. Then with only four left to do, I gradually recovered my sanity.

4

 

Ohh good, grief...

 

Putting the wires in is a minutes job. 

 

You will need three pairs of pliers. One snipe, one flat on the third one can be either snipe or flat. The snipe pair should be a cheap pair that you don't mind modifying. 

 

First, take the snipe piers and file the tips so that they can just hold the middle tab of the bearing supports. The filed tips should be no wider than the tab and long enough to hold the whole tab.

 

Use the third pair of pliers to hold the bearing support. You need to support the strip of metal just below the three holding tabs and ideally, you should keep the support held for the whole operation.

 

Use the snipe pliers to bend down the middle tab from the base of the slots. You should be aiming to bend the tab just enough to be able to clip the wire into place.

 

Put down the snipe pliers and place the wire in the support.

 

Finally, squeeze the ends of all three tabs together with the end of the flat pliers, so that the wire is trapped and is hard to move in the tabs.

 

Finished, just the other 3 to do...

[Compound2632]

@billbedford, it was not my intention to denigrate your product and my apologies if I came across as doing so. The issue is with my own presbyopia! Actually, it's not threading the wire through the tabs that is the issue - I am using the method you describe, though maybe not with the ideal set of tools. It's threading the wire through the holes in the axleguard unit that taxes my eyesight. My method is to make a right angle bend about 6-7 mm from the end of the wire, then cut off the wire with bearing on to about 20 mm length. I hook the bent end through the hole on one side, then pull back to thread the long end though the hole on the other side - that's the bit that causes the eyestrain, as far as I'm concerned. Then the ends of the wire are bent right back round as shown in the photo - this stops the wire rotation round and slipping out of the holes. At first I tried soldering the tabs up, which does add strength but sometimes blocks the hole - again, my cack-handedness. 

 

I put the sprung buffer heads in before the axleguards, as otherwise there's no room to get in to bend the buffer shank to hold it in place - at least with the tools at my disposal. That's why I aim to complete painting of the body before adding the axleguards.

 

Perhaps I should invest in some finer pliers! 

[Compound2632]

@spikey posed an interesting question about PO wagons painted up in the livery of the building or leasing firm, which I think is worth bringing to the attention of those who look in here: 

 

 

[wagonman]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@spikey posed an interesting question about PO wagons painted up in the livery of the building or leasing firm, which I think is worth bringing to the attention of those who look in here: 

 

 

 

Normally such wagons were in the short-term hire fleet though there may have been the odd few used for publicity purposes.

[Compound2632]

I’ve been sidetracked by numerology once again, motivated by wanting to give my Midland wagons reasonably probable numbers. In particular, I want to be happy with the numbers I give to my D360 and D364 16’6” fitted vans. Before I come to these, I’m going to digress onto some of the other vehicles involved in the Sharnbrook accident.

 

Maj. Pringle’s report lists the number and type of each wagon destroyed or damaged. According to guard Henson, the 18 fitted vehicles in the up Manchester train were all vans, with the 6 unfitted vehicles being 3 vans and 3 wagons. The report does not indicate which wagons were in which train but lists 25 vans, 19 broken up and 3 badly damaged and 3 less severely damaged; 5 high sided wagons, one broken up and the remainder damaged; and a tank wagon belonging to the Nene Sulphate Company, badly damaged – the only non-Midland vehicle. Thus we have the numbers of all the fitted vehicles, and possibly the 6 unfitted vehicles in the up goods, and can conclude that the down goods included at least 4 vans near the front. Some of the wagons in the runaway portion of the down goods are listed – at least two; any more would imply one or more wagons at the very tail of the up goods were undamaged, noting that Henson’s brake van is not listed as damaged.

 

Several of the vacuum-fitted vehicles can be picked out without ambiguity. In addition to the two refrigerator meat vans already discussed, there were two motor car vans, five banana vans, and another meat van.

 

The two motor car vans, Nos. 2368 and 3224, were near the front of the up goods: one is very prominent on top of the heap of wreckage in the postcard views:

 

 

In another photo (unsuitable for posting) taken from the other side of the wreckage, the other is lying on its side, end-on to the first. Reference to Midland Wagons shows that these were both D369 vehicles. Both numbers appear in the list of special wagons (Midland Wagons, Fig. 126). The list of numbers on the diagram (Fig. 103) includes 3224 but has 210 and 3368 where the special list has 2010 and 2368, demonstrating that the number lists on the diagrams are not completely reliable. Both lists give 32 numbers; the lot list gives 35 built, 12 to lot 642 in 1906, 20 to lot 668 in 1907, and 3 to lot 725, ordered on 9 August 1909, six months after the accident. According to Midland Wagons, the special wagon list dates from December 1913. The date of the diagram book used in compiling Midland Wagons is not stated. The conclusion must be that lot 725 was for replacements of the two motor car vans destroyed at Sharnbrook, along with, presumably, one other accident victim, the new vehicles taking their numbers.

 

The five banana vans, Nos. 109835/42/48/57/58, were completely destroyed. Midland Wagons Plate 201 is of banana van No. 109858, with 1910 just about readable on its builder’s plate. This makes it one of five built to lot 724, ordered along with lot 725 on 9 August 1909 and thus presumably also replacements of the Sharnbrook victims, taking their numbers. These replacement vehicles were built to a new drawing, Drg 3271, and placed on diagram D387. This diagram is for vans with 3’7” diameter wheels but the description says, similar to lot 649, which was apparently for vans to D365, Drg 2333, with 3’2” wheels. To add to the confusion, for this lot there is a note “sliding doors, 75, folding doors, 25”; D365 shows folding doors and D387 shows a sliding door but carries the note “25 vehicles have folding doors”. The Midland Railway Study Centre has Drg 2333 (Item No. 88-D0247), dated 7 August 1906, and catalogued as lots 608, 649, and 724, several copies of Drg 2640 (Items 88-C0282, 88-D0060, 88-D0106, no dates given), for vans “with undergear to run at express passenger speed and with steam warming apparatus”, catalogued as lot 648, and Drg 3271 (Item No. 88-D1427, no date given), “banana van fitted with undergear to be run at express passenger speed, lot 724”. The supports the story given by the lot and diagram books, suggesting that the body style seen in the photo of No. 109858 was the same as that used for the D365 vans with sliding doors but the lot 724 vans were given the passenger running gear of lot 648. So were the destroyed vans to D365 or D387? I’m inclined to think D387, as D365 is silent on continuous brakes – the diagrams invariably specify if some or all are fitted or piped, listing the nominal tare weight for each case. However, the photo of a lot 648 vehicle (Midland Wagons Plate 202) shows a van numbered 117367. As we’ve seen, the 117xxx number series is a favourite for special wagons built around the turn of the century, to the extent that the identities of 117104-182, 284, 286-300, 501-505, 572-591, 556-568, 571 are known. That does leave a rather suggestive gap of 200 numbers, 117301-500, for the 200 vans of lot 648. To confuse matters further, the G.K. Fox drawing based on Drg 3271 (Midland Wagons Fig. 90) shows 109867 – not one of the Sharnbrook numbers. The conclusion is that one must tread carefully where banana vans are concerned!

 

The well-known photo of a banana train at Hathersage in July 1911 appears to show exclusively vans with passenger running gear, mostly the flat sided vans of lot 648 but also, apparently, all five vans of lot 724:

 

 

NRM DY 9588, reproduced under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

In addition to the two refrigerator meat vans, Nos. 116443 and 117211, a meat van, No. 111778, was destroyed. Vehicles branded “Meat Van” included the D370 refrigerator vans (being 14’11” rather than 16’6” long, there wasn’t room for the full inscription) However, the official photo of a vehicle to this diagram (Midland Wagons Plate 212) shows No. 114128 of lot 305, built in 1892. This suggests that if there was block numbering of these vans, it was rather in the 114xxx range than the 111xxx range, a point to which I will return. The other possibility is D379, the unrefrigerated vans with carriage-style panelled bodies. These were built to two drawings, Drg. 508, which applies to Lots 57 and 274, and Drg. 568, which applies to the remaining lots. Lot 57 was for the first small batch of vans treated as NPCS. Lot 371 of 1896 was for 100 vehicles, half fitted, half piped only; the photo (Midland Wagons Plate 215) shows No. 5817 – indicating a renewal replacement of a very ancient vehicle, not necessarily a meat van. I suspect this whole lot had scattered numbers. Lot 81 of 1882 were almost certainly numbered 35450-69 and were unfitted and had grease axleboxes (Midland Wagons Plates 214 and 216); lot 215 of 1888 also seems to have been unfitted. That leaves lots 274 and 275 of 1891 – 20 vans to Drg 508 and 30 to Drg 568. My guess is that 111778 was one of the 20 fitted vans of lot 274; perhaps this lot was numbered 111770-789. (Referring to the Special Wagons list, Nos. 111790-795 were deep case wagons, but the lots for these all seem to be renewals in the period 1905-12; the other nearby known number is 111759, a crane match wagon.) The date is about right for this number – before the first known 114xxx numbered vehicle and after D351 end-door coal wagon No. 100000 of lot 224 of 1890.

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Compound2632]

I’ve made a start on the second of the Chatham Kits / Roxey Mouldings Stephenson Clarke dumb-buffered wagon kits. (Ex-Woodham Wagon Works, i.e. originating, as do the 5&9 Brighton opens, with Eric Gates.) With some careful preparation with the needle file, cleaning up and fitting the corners – especially at the fixed end – I think I’ve managed to put it together a bit better than my first attempt:

 

 

The discolouration, even after a thorough clean with Cif, shows that at these corners I had to make several attempts to get a flush, square joint. A bit more tidying up with files is needed to get all smooth.

 

Rather annoyingly, I've just realised that I've got the solebar with the brake V-hanger on the wrong side again - the brake lever should be at the fixed end. Serves me right for following the model in front of me rather than going back to the instructions...

Edited September 11, 2019 by Compound2632
Confession of the error of my ways