34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 ...'Firstly, front brake shoes. Short answer: yes, they are missing. This is one of those design compromises that have to be unfortunately, the front bogie will foul if they are fitted.' I've replied saying I am disappointed and surprised about this as a) its going to really stand out and b) the clearances don't appear any tighter than for other models in the current range. Compare for example the Royal Scot which has the same diameter drivers, bigger bogie wheels and (based on photo's - I haven't got drawings to hand) very similar clearances. Thats got full brake gear and sanding gear fitted. I am assuming Hornby have realised that the bogie wheels fitted to the current Duchess model are way too large - if scale wheels are fitted there is plenty of room... There's 3 inches extra distance on the 7P between the bogie wheel centre and the leading driver centre, and the cylinders are correctly positioned between the bogie wheels, and it's a significantly shorter loco. On the 7P model Hornby have used very small flanges on the bogie wheelsets (0.35mm) and the bogie moves forward when lateralIy displaced, which is possible because the cylinder block rear is significantly further forward relative to the trailing bogie wheel on the 7P. I can see why the model designer might favour the compromise of leaving the leading brake shoes off on the 8P model. It's Tom Coleman's detail design work on the 8P I am afraid! Might be worth suggesting that the leading brake shoes be made as a clip in piece for user application? They will fit on a display model on straight track; and those of us prepared to 'fiddle' will be able to make them work on larger radius curves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScRSG Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Regarding the front brake shoe debate, even if you try to build a DJH kit, you will have enormous difficulty in fitting these shoes (in fine etched brass) and getting the bogie to not foul them. I can fully understand why they will be omitted, so unless you only run on straight track or very large radius curves (or as a showcase only model), I think you may just have to accept this. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) Regarding the front brake shoe debate, even if you try to build a DJH kit, you will have enormous difficulty in fitting these shoes (in fine etched brass) and getting the bogie to not foul them. I can fully understand why they will be omitted, so unless you only run on straight track or very large radius curves (or as a showcase only model), I think you may just have to accept this. Oh dear, the armchair modellers and those who never made anything and therefore never made a mistake wont like this. Edited January 11, 2017 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted January 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2017 Regarding the front brake shoe debate, even if you try to build a DJH kit, you will have enormous difficulty in fitting these shoes (in fine etched brass) and getting the bogie to not foul them. I can fully understand why they will be omitted, so unless you only run on straight track or very large radius curves (or as a showcase only model), I think you may just have to accept this. Thanks - that answered my next question - how do DJH do it! Oh dear, the armchair modellers and those who never made anything and therefore never made a mistake wont like this. Shame there isn't a 'Not helpful' button. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 My Comet chassis Duchess has got brake shoes on the front drivers. Don't see what the problem is. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) Regarding the front brake shoe debate, even if you try to build a DJH kit, you will have enormous difficulty in fitting these shoes (in fine etched brass) and getting the bogie to not foul them. I can fully understand why they will be omitted, so unless you only run on straight track or very large radius curves (or as a showcase only model), I think you may just have to accept this. Kits generally do not like tight curves and things so while - with a lot patience - you can make great detailed models, 3ft radius is about as tight as you can go unless they are small locos. On my southern Q class (a smallish 0-6-0), I had to grind back the bearing faces of the axle boxes in order to give it enough side play to go round 26 inch radius. The other thing with kits is that break shoes etc are all etched metal pieces which increases short circuits if they do touch the wheels. RTR cheats by making these in plastic. Edit: on my Q class, even I cheated by giving it plastic brake shoes! Edited January 13, 2017 by JSpencer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 My Comet chassis Duchess has got brake shoes on the front drivers. Don't see what the problem is. Mass producing a large Pacific loco that looks like a scale model and yet has to negotiate ultra-sharp curves like settrack is a hard call, but hornbyfans expect miracles even though proprietary r-t-r locomotive are more finely detailed today than they ever were. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) What luxury; all these layouts with 30" radius curves & above! Hornby cater for the average modeller & try to incorporate as much detail as possible in all their latest models. They cater for those of us who consider minimum radii as second radius curves because of space restraints on their layout choice. If you want all the nitty gritty details of the prototype, build yourself a DJH kit. If you do not have the skill to build one, stop moaning! I could build & decorate one but am quite satisfied with what Hornby will be offering with their minor compromises. How many modellers visiting an exhibition can pick out all the omissions pointed out in this forum? Very Few. 90% of us average modeller will be delighted with Hornby's new Duchess. This year's Christmas present is already asked for - 'Sir William Stanier FRS'. Peter Edited January 12, 2017 by Crewlisle 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 My Comet chassis Duchess has got brake shoes on the front drivers. Don't see what the problem is. Built from accurately scaled parts to the correct dimensional layout of course there isn't a problem. After all the full size parts are all present on the prototype. Follow on question: and what is the minimum radius on which the resulting model runs? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted January 12, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2017 Dare I mention that the Graham Farish N gauge model has a complete set of brake gear. I can see there have been other compromises in the chassis though. From this point of view can i thank '34betweentheB&D' for post 186 which is both constructive and insightful in highlighting the actual technical issues. I am over the moon that Hornby are making a new Duchess but I dont think I need to be 'grateful' to them - they are a business and producing a big red named Pacific should be a sure fire winner for them. I've already got my pre-orders in as I imagine most of the contributors to this thread have. This being my all time favourite loco class I want it to be the best model Hornby can possibly make and thats why I drew attention to the brake shoes - which jar on the CAD to my eyes, If they aren't on the finished model they are going to be difficult (but not impossible) to add. I like the idea of an optional part on the detail pack - maybe with a caveat of usable down to a minimum curve of a Peco medium radius point (36 inch) - wonder if thats a possibility?. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 (edited) 34theletterbetweenB&D, on 12 Jan 2017 - 10:53, said: Built from accurately scaled parts to the correct dimensional layout of course there isn't a problem. After all the full size parts are all present on the prototype. Follow on question: and what is the minimum radius on which the resulting model runs? Considerably more than the two chains the majority of purchasers will expect it to run on. Edited January 14, 2017 by Wheatley Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Hi Guys, Following the earlier picture of my dad with 6229.....here is another picture, but this time of my Grandfather, a fitter in Crewe Works. This is the loco I want to model, and wondered if the new Duchess of Atholl would be the best donor to convert to an early sixties model of City of Sheffield. He is pictured on the right of the nameplate, Harold "Jock" Coupe, and probably taken when the loco was being fitted with its replacement Stainless Steel plates manufactured by Firth Brown of Sheffield for the City council.....the date would be late 1944 or early 1945 and pictured in the works. I have posted this photo on here some years ago, so apologies if some of you have seen it before. Regards Bob 17 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2017 Hi Guys, Following the earlier picture of my dad with 6229.....here is another picture, but this time of my Grandfather, a fitter in Crewe Works. This is the loco I want to model, and wondered if the new Duchess of Atholl would be the best donor to convert to an early sixties model of City of Sheffield. He is pictured on the right of the nameplate, Harold "Jock" Coupe, and probably taken when the loco was being fitted with its replacement Stainless Steel plates manufactured by Firth Brown of Sheffield for the City council.....the date would be late 1944 or early 1945 and pictured in the works. I have posted this photo on here some years ago, so apologies if some of you have seen it before. Regards Thank you for posting this.I certainly have not seen it before and it is most certainly a valuable historical document. This not the first time I have seen railway memorabilia with the name Firth Brown attached .I believe I'm correct in saying that there still hangs in Cutlers Hall in Sheffield the original loco headboard from "The Master Cutler" made by and donated by the same Firth Brown.I think they might like a copy ? Bob My Grandfather Harold (Jock) Coupe on the right, fixing the nameplate.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) My Grandfather Harold (Jock) Coupe on the right, fixing the nameplate.jpg Thank you for posting this.I certainly have not seen it before and it is most certainly a valuable historical document. This not the first time I have seen railway memorabilia with the name Firth Brown attached .I believe I'm correct in saying that there still hangs in Cutlers Hall in Sheffield the original loco headboard from "The Master Cutler" made by and donated by the same Firth Brown.I think they might like a copy ? Thanks Ian...... For me, its a really important photograph, the only one I have of my grandfather on Crewe Works. His real job was as a motion fitter in the erecting shop, so I don't know how he managed to get on this publicity photo. Bob. Edited January 17, 2017 by 250BOB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 17, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2017 Thanks Ian...... For me, its a really important photograph, the only one I have of my grandfather on Crewe Works. His real job was as a motion fitter in the erecting shop, so I don't know how he managed to get on this publicity photo. Bob. Lovely.But worth a wider look. Don't keep it to yourself .Sheffield is a city proud of its industrial heritage and that is an iconic photo. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brocp Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Great photo! Thanks for sharing it here with us Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Brit70053 Posted January 18, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 18, 2017 A Nameplate from City Of Sheffield is on display in the Kelham Island Industrial Museum in Sheffield, though I don't know if its the one in the photograph above. I did have a photograph taken in the museum, but it was lost when my hard drive went walk about. Said museum is well worth a visit. Regards, John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
9402 Fredrick Posted January 18, 2017 Share Posted January 18, 2017 Pre-ordered the model of 46256 this morning from Hornby, I'm extremely excited to have a model of one of these amazing locos on my layout. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) Pre-ordered the model of 46256 this morning from Hornby, I'm extremely excited to have a model of one of these amazing locos on my layout.I'm excited too, and very much looking forward to these locos. I'm not a penny pincher and am very much of the mindset to support our model shops.Just wondered why you would order direct from Hornby at £189.99, whereas for instance, the price from Rails of Sheffield is £149.50, that's £40 cheaper.? Bob Edited January 21, 2017 by 250BOB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tractionman Posted January 21, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2017 A Nameplate from City Of Sheffield is on display in the Kelham Island Industrial Museum in Sheffield, though I don't know if its the one in the photograph above. I did have a photograph taken in the museum, but it was lost when my hard drive went walk about. Said museum is well worth a visit. Regards, John The smokebox number plate and nameplate from City of Coventry is on the wall in the stairwell of Coventry station, along with a colour photograph of the loco. It's been there as long as I remember, perhaps put up when the loco was scrapped as the station was brand new then. If you're visiting, it's the stairs between platforms two and three. Coventry station is due to be rebuilt, sadly so in my view as the station is iconic of its time. I hope the loco plates reappear in the new station when it finally sees completion. All the best, Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeps Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 I'm excited too, and very much looking forward to these locos. I'm not a penny pincher and am very much of the mindset to support our model shops. Just wondered why you would order direct from Hornby at £189.99, whereas for instance, the price from Rails of Sheffield is £149.50, that's £40 cheaper.? Bob It's £169.50 on Rails Website, has it gone up? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeps Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 It's £169.50 on Rails Website, has it gone up? Oh no you're right - it is £149.50 better order one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted January 21, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2017 Oh no you're right - it is £149.50 better order one. Thanks - Hattons order (£171) cancelled Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250BOB Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 So why would anyone buy from Hornby at the full £189....??????? Rails seem to have some of the best prices these days.....a few of my friends who were Hatton devotees have now switched their allegiance to Rails. Me.......I shall support my local model shop and see what they can do it for, hopefully under £180 and it will be ok for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
9402 Fredrick Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 I live in the USA and the one I pre-ordered was only 158.33 cause it had free shipping for me and no VAT. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now