Distant signal south of Bewdley Tunnel

[peak experience]

I've just been watching the programme, 'The Flying Scotsman from the Footplate'. As the train left Bewdley Tunnel there was a distant signal on the right hand side of the track, opposite to where the driver's position is. I've never seen theis before on the prototype. I always thought signals were sited on the driver's side. How common was it?

[br2975]

Sometimes signals were placed in 'unusual' positions to aid sighting by the driver e.g. on some curves.

[phil-b259]

I've just been watching the programme, 'The Flying Scotsman from the Footplate'. As the train left Bewdley Tunnel there was a distant signal on the right hand side of the track, opposite to where the driver's position is. I've never seen theis before on the prototype. I always thought signals were sited on the driver's side. How common was it?

Please remember all GWR locos were right hand drive - NOT the more usually left hand drive favoured by the rest of the big Four* or British Railways. As such it would not be unusuall to find signals on ex GWR lines mounted on the right hand side of the line, particularly on single track routes.

 

* While the SR, LMS and LNER may have inherited right hand drive locos from various pre-grouping companies (the 'Flying Scotsman' being one such example as it was right hand drive from construction by the GNR up until it was upgraded to the A3 standard in the late 1940s), all three companies standardised on left hand drive for new construction.

[Rugd1022]

It's still very common today, the routes I drive on are littered with right handers, mostly for sighting reasons, this includes semaphores, colour lights, ground signals etc.

[PenrithBeacon]

Please remember all GWR locos were right hand drive - NOT the more usually left hand drive favoured by the rest of the big Four* or British Railways. As such it would not be unusuall to find signals on ex GWR lines mounted on the right hand side of the line, particularly on single track routes.

 

* While the SR, LMS and LNER may have inherited right hand drive locos from various pre-grouping companies (the 'Flying Scotsman' being one such example as it was right hand drive from construction by the GNR up until it was upgraded to the A3 standard in the late 1940s), all three companies standardised on left hand drive for new construction.

Early LMS and LNER designs had right hand drive and some locos stayed in production with right hand drive after the companies changed to left hand drive. The LMS 3F shunter is the classic example of this, but the 4F did change from right hand to left hand.

 

'Flying Scotsman' was converted to left hand drive in 1954. The loco's engineering history is a little complex, built with short travel, short lap valve gear and 180lb boiler, later rebuilt with long travel, long lap valve gear (not sure when, think mid 30s), high pressure boiler in 1940s, left hand drive in 1954, double chimney and blinkers early 60s.

 

Regards

[Blandford1969]

Due to the curve of the tunnel, you can sight the distant before emerging from the tunnel and even though only doing 25 (the tunnel is on a downgrade and steam is shut off so no problems of too much exhaust blocking the view. Its still useful to get that early view. I don't know how common it is, but its been there since at least the line reopening.

[peak experience]

Thanks for your answers guys. It certainly looked odd.

[The Johnster]

The loop starter on Cwmdimbath is a right hand side signal, as there is not room on the left side of the loop in the 6 foot between it and the platform road.  This is another reason for positioning a signal on the right of the track, but there needs to be no running line that side to cause confusion.  Knowing where the signals are is a part of route knowledge.

[Rugd1022]

There are plenty of places where right handers are placed between two adjacent lines, obviously route knowledge is the key ingrediant when it comes ot these locations. Worcester is a case in point, there are several right handers scattered about at Shrub Hill, one of which is a right b*st*rd to see at night as the overhead lighting gantry by the DMU sidings tends to blot everything else out!

[Longdog]

The thing I noticed was the Finial being yellow. Presumibly it's red on Home posts? Always thought it was white on both.

[The Stationmaster]

The thing I noticed was the Finial being yellow. Presumibly it's red on Home posts? Always thought it was white on both.

 

The ball part of the finial should be the same colour as the arm of the signal on 'proper' Western painting style so red for a stop signal and yellow for a distant (it would be red on a stop signal post or doll with a lower arm distant).  The only bit I have never found an answer to is what colour they were painted on Backing Distants but I do wonder if it was red?

[beast66606]

  The only bit I have never found an answer to is what colour they were painted on Backing Distants but I do wonder if it was red?

 

This one - at Wrexham (Croes Newydd) has a red ball - but it was LM territory by this date (1980) so whether it's genuine is a different matter.

 

[Bulleidnutter]

Thats not a distant though. Thats a standard Western backing signal which is a form of stop signal.

[The Stationmaster]

This one - at Wrexham (Croes Newydd) has a red ball - but it was LM territory by this date (1980) so whether it's genuine is a different matter.

 

DAS04090.jpg

 

 

Thats not a distant though. Thats a standard Western backing signal which is a form of stop signal.

Yes - it is indeed a stop signal and, even if they showed a white light when at danger, all the Backing  (stop) Signals had a red ball.

 

The difficult one is the Backing Distant, for a start they were very rare (I only know of three on the whole of the GWR although there might have been more) and secondly I have never come across a colour picture of one - probably because with one possible exception the ones I know about had gone before amateur colour film was widely available.

[johnb]

What did they look like Mike? Also what were the circumstances of their use? I was under the impression that backing signals were for relatively local moves. If they needed a distant then presumably they were for quite lengthy backing moves.

[ForestPines]

I've just been watching the programme, 'The Flying Scotsman from the Footplate'. As the train left Bewdley Tunnel there was a distant signal on the right hand side of the track, opposite to where the driver's position is. I've never seen theis before on the prototype. I always thought signals were sited on the driver's side. How common was it?

I feel slightly churlish pointing this out, but by that point in the journey the train had already passed a few other signals on the RHS, most noticeably Bewdley North Up Home, at which the train was briefly stopped; and also that signal's banner repeater. There was also Bewdley South Up Homes, but I can't recall if they were visible on screen.

[peak experience]

I feel slightly churlish pointing this out, but by that point in the journey the train had already passed a few other signals on the RHS, most noticeably Bewdley North Up Home, at which the train was briefly stopped; and also that signal's banner repeater. There was also Bewdley South Up Homes, but I can't recall if they were visible on screen.

 

I only started watching from that point.

[beast66606]

Yes - it is indeed a stop signal and, even if they showed a white light when at danger, all the Backing  (stop) Signals had a red ball.

 

The difficult one is the Backing Distant, for a start they were very rare (I only know of three on the whole of the GWR although there might have been more) and secondly I have never come across a colour picture of one - probably because with one possible exception the ones I know about had gone before amateur colour film was widely available.

 

Sorry Mike - I stopped reading at backing and went off to find a photo ... <smacks head>

[Metr0Land]

Just east of Pembrey and Burry Port this one exists on the RHS between the tracks. Just west of the station, the semaphore is in the more normal position on LHS

 

[woodenhead]

There was interesting language being applied that did not feel like it originated with railwaymen, the fireman calling out "code red" whenever he was spotting the right hand signals for the driver and the driver repeating to acknowledge.

 

Is this HSE inspired or for the cameras?

[Fat Controller]

Just east of Pembrey and Burry Port this one exists on the RHS between the tracks. Just west of the station, the semaphore is in the more normal position on LHS

 

Just behind the relay cabinets was the 'Cambrian Hotel', which my great-aunt Muriel used to keep from the 1940s until the end of the 1960s. I used to spend my visits leaning on the back fence, trying to avoid the attentions of her chickens (and more especially, their fleas). The grassy area to the right of the train was the exchange sidings for the BP&GV line, so there was always something moving.

I'm trying to think why that signal is situated where it is; to improve sighting against the footbridge on which the photographer was standing? Where the green-clad building is was a flat crossing for the BP&GV branch which went up the Dyvatty Valley.

[The Stationmaster]

What did they look like Mike? Also what were the circumstances of their use? I was under the impression that backing signals were for relatively local moves. If they needed a distant then presumably they were for quite lengthy backing moves.

 

They looked exactly the same as an ordinary Backing Signal except there was a 'fishtail' cut in the end of the arm.  One of those I know about actually applied to a ground disc and was, as far as I could tell from photos and diagrams plus limited knowledge of the site provided entirely for sighting reasons and was probably no more than a train length from the disc it applied to.

 

The same can probably be said of the other one of which I know a bit about the site as it was in a curved cutting with retaining walls on both sides and very limited safe room for anyone on the ground.  I presume that it too applied to a ground disc as one definitely appears in the right place on the relevant SRS 'box diagram but oddly the diagram does not include the backing distant although it was pointed out to me in a photo someone had come across.  I only know about the other one from being told that it existed but have never seen any information about it or photos of it so can't reach any conclusions about its purpose.

 

Presumably the signals were mentioned in the relevant Sectional Appendix as there is no mention of them in the contemporaneous GWR General Appendix and I have never come across any mention of them in one of the the relevant Minute Books (of which I have a full set).  There is another set of Minute Books where they might to have cropped up but I don't know of anyone who has a set of those.

[johnb]

Many thanks for that Mike, so really more of a repeater in awkward sighting locations rather than a 'true distant'. Presumably painted yellow amd controlled from the same lever in the 'box?  A practical way to solve a problem. Neat!

 

John

 

PS Will you be at the MM&D show on Saturday?

[ForestPines]

I only started watching from that point.

I apologise; I recommend you head over to iPlayer and watch the whole thing!

[Phil Bullock]

There are plenty of places where right handers are placed between two adjacent lines, obviously route knowledge is the key ingrediant when it comes ot these locations. Worcester is a case in point, there are several right handers scattered about at Shrub Hill, one of which is a right b*st*rd to see at night as the overhead lighting gantry by the DMU sidings tends to blot everything else out!

 

And Norton Junction's home from Abbotswood junction used to be a right hander IIRC....just around the corner to the right in this photo

 

http://www.miac.org.uk/norton.html

 

Havent checked lately but am assuming its now replaced by

 

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=norton+junction+home+signal&view=detailv2&&id=F7B162C01A0B9ACFECE4FD8698342CA511628A61&selectedIndex=12&ccid=QDw9WNII&simid=608050169335516707&thid=OIP.M403c3d58d208d1f3ef97d8981086c63do0&ajaxhist=0

 

Phil