RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted January 11, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2021 A bit too slow then! Unless this is a diesel loco, any steam loco should be able to do at least 30-40mph. The main criticism of diesel shunters when they replaced steam was that they were too b****y slow. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down_Under Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 Thanks Barclay, Do you know how these compare with the smaller ones ? Got a couple of those with some Agenoria Kits recently. anyone tried this? Bit more ££ but possibly been spec’d for model railways? https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/154240492242?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20161006002618%26meid%3Dda8998e7833c4bd3a273f467afa8c6e0%26pid%3D100694%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D27%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D283315414483%26itm%3D154240492242%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2386202%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barclay Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 54 minutes ago, Michael Edge said: A bit too slow then! Unless this is a diesel loco, any steam loco should be able to do at least 30-40mph. The main criticism of diesel shunters when they replaced steam was that they were too b****y slow. Yes I should have gone for 30 or even 20:1 but luckily it's an industrial shunter! 27 minutes ago, Down_Under said: Thanks Barclay, Do you know how these compare with the smaller ones ? Got a couple of those with some Agenoria Kits recently. anyone tried this? Bit more ££ but possibly been spec’d for model railways? https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/154240492242?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20161006002618%26meid%3Dda8998e7833c4bd3a273f467afa8c6e0%26pid%3D100694%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D27%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D283315414483%26itm%3D154240492242%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2386202%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic J I haven't tried the smaller ones because they seem to always be for less than 12v and I was worried about burning them out, which is a shame as they would be very suitable for my needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 3 hours ago, Down_Under said: Thanks Barclay, Do you know how these compare with the smaller ones ? Got a couple of those with some Agenoria Kits recently. anyone tried this? Bit more ££ but possibly been spec’d for model railways? https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/154240492242?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20161006002618%26meid%3Dda8998e7833c4bd3a273f467afa8c6e0%26pid%3D100694%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D27%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D283315414483%26itm%3D154240492242%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2386202%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic J I tried one of these the 1220 ish single ended shaft, it did not like my H&M test controller, after a short while it died. High Level ones are rated for 12 volts and are fine Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted January 12, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2021 I have used the smaller square motor, one does seem to be running successfully but another one died very quickly. They also run hot on (nominally) 12v DC, I don't think I'll bother with these again - it's a pity though, they are also very powerful for the size. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted January 12, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2021 The main problem is of course that what appears on such as eBay are surplus stock and what the specs the motors were originally made for is an unknown. Perhaps the square type were not intended for continuous operation, but just intermittent use where short bursts of high power were the main requirement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted January 12, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 12, 2021 Quite possibly but they are so cheap that it doesn't really matter. I've amassed a large stock of all sorts for very little expenditure, not knowing if there is a reliable supply of any of these makes it nearly impossible to use them in any production kits though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium NCB Posted January 14, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 14, 2021 (edited) Being a 3mm/ft modeller I'm interested in small motors, and have been trying the small coreless motors appearing on the market. First attempt was a 7x16 motor from ebay; I bought 16 for £25. Here's one fitted to a Metro chassis, with a Mashima 1020 for comparison: I used a High Level Compact+ 54:1 gearbox, replacing the first stage with one having cradle for the motor which is fixed with a strap. The motor is very smooth and quiet; it has been tested under moderate loads and works fine. It's a bit livelier than I would like, but overall works as well as, possibly better than, the 1020. The drive shaft is a bit small but using a bush cut from brass tube 1mm I/D 1.5mm O/D it works OK. I then tried a couple of 8x17 motors from Tramfabriek in two Cambrian locomotives, an Albion 2-4-0 and a Seaham 2-4-0T. Here they are: Again I used a High Level Compact+ 54:1 gearbox, using my own cradle for the motor, which is glued in place using Araldite Rapid; this holds the motor firm enough, but a Stanley knife slid underneath will detach it. Again, very smooth and quiet, lively but reasonably so (as the real things were). Tramfabriek does other coreless motors, including a 10x20 which they imply can be used as a replacement for the Mashima 1020: https://tramfabriek.nl/motors.html These were tested using a basic Gaugemaster Combi controller. As with all coreless motors extreme caution is recommended with feed-back controllers. Nigel Edited January 14, 2021 by NCB 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 (edited) On 06/01/2021 at 10:55, Down_Under said: Hi all, I've been trialling out these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Japan-Mini-Micro-5-Pole-Electric-Big-Coreless-Motor-DC-3-7V-5V-6V-12V-High-Speed/193592365341?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D078579b7ca5d4a32b6e813e2d6d94605%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dpp%26sd%3D193592365341%26itm%3D193592365341%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A7681270b-500b-11eb-a7e8-6ef2a71592fa|parentrq%3Ad747c1971760a68ba65ca17bffcbd636|iid%3A1 I bought models B, C and D. Here is the C type fitted to a Judith Edge Janus chassis and a High Level Road Runner + (54:1). I had to sleeve the shaft from 1 to 1.5mm and in doing so ensured there is no for and aft movement. it will crawl long under normal DC, even at relatively low levels of reduction (for a shunter) - 20 sec for a full wheel rotation without stalling. They have surprising amount of torque and I'd say quite a nice 12/20 or 12/24 replacement. I'm yet to run up to the full 12v as that is far beyond what I need for a small shunter. Very responsive to minor current increase. cant stop them with fingers at 3v - and the model C has normal Mashima mounting screw holes. Will try some of the double shaft variety as they look similar https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10mm-Mini-Coreless-Motor-Dual-Shaft-DC-6V-9V-12V-High-Speed-RC-Rail-Train-Car/192513133362?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200520130048%26meid%3D3b34a177d0dc4ad6ac713fd37c333ba6%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dsb%26sd%3D193592365341%26itm%3D192513133362%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV3BBEV2b%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851 Good luck! James James What size grub screws do these motors have please, plus any further thoughts on these motors Thanks Edited February 9, 2021 by hayfield Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down_Under Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 On 09/02/2021 at 17:14, hayfield said: James What size grub screws do these motors have please, plus any further thoughts on these motors Thanks G’day Hayfield, RE mounting screws: The 6v 1mm shaft 10/20 (C type) motors use the same size mounting screws as the equivalent Mashima (M1.4 x 2) the 12v 1.5mm shaft version (B type - stubby little shaft) use a 10BA screw (weird right?!) I used some Romford crankpins until some 10BA turned up. I’m in the process of building one of the 12v ones into a 165DE to see if I can sleeve this correctly, so far so good. I’m in the process of building one of the 6v ones into a EM jinty to run on a friends large continuous run EM layout (35ft long). That should be a pretty good test. Hope to have this one running my month end. James 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barclay Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 On 11/01/2021 at 08:40, Barclay said: I've had some of these 15mm square 6 pole motors for a while but this is the first time I have used one in a loco. I too was concerned that they seem to run quite hot, but after some running this one seems to have settled down nicely. It's far too early to be able to comment on longevity but I can say they are very powerful - the loco this one is going into weighs 400g and it will still spin the wheels if obstructed on the track. It's also ludicrously slow revving compared to most of 'our' motors - this loco tops out at about 16mph flat out at 12 volts, and that's with simple 40:1 Romford gears. I've now completed this loco. and had the chance to run it for a while, and it is very smooth and quiet indeed. The only unexpected thing is that it only really performs at it's best when run with a very old AGW 'solid state controller'. On the Gaugemaster feedback and the Pentroller, which all my other loco's prefer, it is slightly hesitant, or twitchy. Does this mean these motors aren't happy with feedback? I wonder if anyone else has noticed this issue? Further testing, with an H&M Powermaster, will follow in due course. As a matter of interest, I note that one has been used to re-motor a Pacific Fast Mail brass Shay in February's Railroad Model Craftsman, so they seem to be gaining in popularity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 I have used N20 motors in a few locomotives now but I have not, until now, seen one with this configuration. It's not going to be suitable for 4mm but I can see uses for chain-driven industrial diesels, and Sentinel steam locos in 7mm. @Michael Edge 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted February 22, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Barclay said: I've now completed this loco. and had the chance to run it for a while, and it is very smooth and quiet indeed. The only unexpected thing is that it only really performs at it's best when run with a very old AGW 'solid state controller'. On the Gaugemaster feedback and the Pentroller, which all my other loco's prefer, it is slightly hesitant, or twitchy. Does this mean these motors aren't happy with feedback? I wonder if anyone else has noticed this issue? Further testing, with an H&M Powermaster, will follow in due course. As a matter of interest, I note that one has been used to re-motor a Pacific Fast Mail brass Shay in February's Railroad Model Craftsman, so they seem to be gaining in popularity. I use some Gaugemaster feedback controllers and I haven't noticed this but the motor does buzz a bit. 9 minutes ago, Ruston said: I have used N20 motors in a few locomotives now but I have not, until now, seen one with this configuration. It's not going to be suitable for 4mm but I can see uses for chain-driven industrial diesels, and Sentinel steam locos in 7mm. @Michael Edge That looks very interesting, why not for 4mm? How wide is the gearbox? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Michael Edge said: I use some Gaugemaster feedback controllers and I haven't noticed this but the motor does buzz a bit. That looks very interesting, why not for 4mm? How wide is the gearbox? It's as wide as the motor, so although it will fit within the frames, the drive arm won't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted February 22, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2021 Interesting Dave. I'll have a look for that version as for something like a tender drive it could be laid flat on the top of the frames. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted February 22, 2021 Author Share Posted February 22, 2021 Could it be arranged so that it uses bevel gears with the motor in the firebox? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barclay Posted February 22, 2021 Share Posted February 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Ruston said: It's as wide as the motor, so although it will fit within the frames, the drive arm won't. With careful drilling, could it be 're-engineered' to replace the drive arm with a locomotive axle? Fitted with hornblocks, it could be dropped out for maintenance rather than having to build the entire chassis around it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted February 22, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 22, 2021 That sounds like a plan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted February 22, 2021 Author Share Posted February 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Barclay said: With careful drilling, could it be 're-engineered' to replace the drive arm with a locomotive axle? Fitted with hornblocks, it could be dropped out for maintenance rather than having to build the entire chassis around it. The drive shaft will be 3mm so if you choose a 3mm axle there won't be any need for drilling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pebbles Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 On 22/02/2021 at 16:45, PenrithBeacon said: The drive shaft will be 3mm so if you choose a 3mm axle there won't be any need for drilling. The two ends of the drive shaft appear to be of different diameters and maybe the final gear is located on a diameter of less than 3mm. I confess I have no idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted February 25, 2021 Share Posted February 25, 2021 On 06/01/2021 at 10:55, Down_Under said: Here is the C type fitted to a Judith Edge Janus chassis and a High Level Road Runner + (54:1). I had to sleeve the shaft from 1 to 1.5mm and in doing so ensured there is no for and aft movement. I went ahead and bought two of these motors. I have fitted one to a 90:1 HL Humpshunter, in a Judith Edge Ruston 165. It is running perfectly in one direction but in the other it appears to travel along well enough but it makes the most horrendous noise. It is in the direction where the shaft in the motor is being pulled out and I am wondering if it is the motor that is causing the noise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 21 hours ago, Ruston said: I went ahead and bought two of these motors. I have fitted one to a 90:1 HL Humpshunter, in a Judith Edge Ruston 165. It is running perfectly in one direction but in the other it appears to travel along well enough but it makes the most horrendous noise. It is in the direction where the shaft in the motor is being pulled out and I am wondering if it is the motor that is causing the noise. It was the motor. It appears that the end float was excessive and must have caused something inside the motor to rub against something that it ought not to. I swapped it for a Mitsumi and the loco runs nicely and quietly now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted February 26, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 26, 2021 The single ended ones I've got have very little end float, I can just get a worm on the shaft but the hardest job was getting the pinion off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5050 Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 On 26/02/2021 at 19:22, Michael Edge said: The single ended ones I've got have very little end float, I can just get a worm on the shaft but the hardest job was getting the pinion off. We P4 modellers use a large pudding hammer for small jobs like that 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted March 2, 2021 Share Posted March 2, 2021 On 26/02/2021 at 11:22, Michael Edge said: The single ended ones I've got have very little end float, I can just get a worm on the shaft but the hardest job was getting the pinion off. You could say it was a matter of a pinion 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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