844fan Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Hey all, Boy I do bounce around in my research. I suppose it just comes from my thirst of knowledge on locomotives and railway's coupled with my ADHD. Anyway for today;s disscusion I was looking for more photos of the French box tank I talked about over here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/120433-french-plm-0-6-0-cou-cou-shunting-box-tanks-no-1901-80/ and I ran across this A small 0-4-0 saddle tank shunter with a bit of a twist. This little Tank Engine is like a Shay, Climax, Heisler or even Sentinel vertical boilers in that it is a geared drive. The website I found it on http://home.btconnect.com/Enhance-Ecosse/llcase.html says the little engine is based off a Locomotive by the name of Pugsy which is a nice use of the Pug nickname which I think comes from the fact that most 0-4-0 saddle tanks which are most commonly called Pugs just happen to have their smokebox recessed under their tanks. But I digress back to Pugsy the little engine looks adorable and I have a soft spot in my heart for geared locos so anyone know more of the little shunter? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) Pugsy was bought from Grays challk quarries, in 1866, by Isaac Watt Boulton, maker unknown. Cylinders 7"x18". Weight 7 tons 19cwt. Working boiler pressure 120lb. For further details see The Chronicles of Boulton's Siding by A.R. Bennett. That is if you can find a copy - it was published in 1927 so I suspect it is quite hard to find now. Edited March 6, 2017 by Ruston Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I bet the driver did not like it. It looks like right *** to oil up. Gordon A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir douglas Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 You'll like this one, it turned up about a year ago on facebook. All thats known is that its somewhere in middlesborough in the 1870's a coupling rod and crank can be seen behind the rear wheel so it would suggest a vertical cylinder and geared drive to the rear axle 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 You'll like this one, it turned up about a year ago on facebook. All thats known is that its somewhere in middlesborough in the 1870's a coupling rod and crank can be seen behind the rear wheel so it would suggest a vertical cylinder and geared drive to the rear axle loco middlesborough 1870's.jpg The two(?) vertical cylinders are clearly visible behind the pannier(?) tanks. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) Some information on "Pugsy" in the "Industrial Railways & Locomotives of Essex", which refers to an item in "The Engineer", 16th February 1866. (I've tried to find the piece referred to here: http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/f/fa/Er18660216.pdf, but without success). Apparently, there was a listing that two locomotives were to be auctioned by Fuller Horsey on 14/3/1866 (later revised to 27/3/1866) formerly of Grays Chalk Quarries Co. Ltd. One was a "4w coupled" by Slaughter & Gruning (outside-cylindered 0-4-0ST of 1863 named "BRISTOL"), the other a 7" by Coley & Co, West London Ironworks (the inside-cylindered geared 0-4-0ST subject of this thread). Both locos went to Isaac Boulton. (I've highlighted the bits that are additional to the entry in "The Chronicles of Boulton's Siding". Another (uncredited) source suggests an alternative spelling of "Colley & Co". No other locomotives have been described. "The Chronicles of Boulton's Siding" was reprinted by David & Charles in 1971, which means that second-hand copies are available from the usual places. Edited March 6, 2017 by EddieB 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 6, 2017 The term 'pug' for a small saddle tank shunting loco seems to have originated in Scotland, though of course the L & Y engines picked up the name as well. I have never heard of it being used in the southern half of Britain, where there were plenty of examples of the breed; the term would have been unknown at Danygraig for the Swansea Dock engines, for instance. AFAIK it is only due to the activities of railway enthusiasts, including modellers, that the word has become known across the country, a bit like 'Jinty'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 You'll like this one, it turned up about a year ago on facebook. All thats known is that its somewhere in middlesborough in the 1870's a coupling rod and crank can be seen behind the rear wheel so it would suggest a vertical cylinder and geared drive to the rear axle loco middlesborough 1870's.jpg Sam my friend you never fail to amaze me with your finds. That is quite clearly a vertical cylinder geared tank engine and by the looks od it I'd say it is quite close in build to Pugsy. I'd even go out on a limb and say it may even have been her at a earlier time with pannier tanks as opposed to later saddle arrangements the model depicts. Some information on "Pugsy" in the "Industrial Railways & Locomotives of Essex", which refers to an item in "The Engineer", 16th February 1866. (I've tried to find the piece referred to here: http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/f/fa/Er18660216.pdf, but without success). Apparently, there was a listing that two locomotives were to be auctioned by Fuller Horsey on 14/3/1866 (later revised to 27/3/1866) formerly of Grays Chalk Quarries Co. Ltd. One was a "4w coupled" by Slaughter & Gruning (outside-cylindered 0-4-0ST of 1863 named "BRISTOL"), the other a 7" by Coley & Co, West London Ironworks (the inside-cylindered geared 0-4-0ST subject of this thread). Both locos went to Isaac Boulton. (I've highlighted the bits that are additional to the entry in "The Chronicles of Boulton's Siding". Another (uncredited) source suggests an alternative spelling of "Colley & Co". No other locomotives have been described. "The Chronicles of Boulton's Siding" was reprinted by David & Charles in 1971, which means that second-hand copies are available from the usual places. I looked up the book in question for a image search on Google and found a photo of the other loco mentioned in that sale. Bristol is quite a interesting little loco too. I'm going to have to look into seeing if Abebooks has a copy of the book who knows may be affordable. The term 'pug' for a small saddle tank shunting loco seems to have originated in Scotland, though of course the L & Y engines picked up the name as well. I have never heard of it being used in the southern half of Britain, where there were plenty of examples of the breed; the term would have been unknown at Danygraig for the Swansea Dock engines, for instance. AFAIK it is only due to the activities of railway enthusiasts, including modellers, that the word has become known across the country, a bit like 'Jinty'. Possibly even thanks to the Rev. Awdry helping it's use spread from Scotland. I'm quite aware that Pug was used mainly in the Caladonian, Highland and later LMS territorys and wasn't always a universal term for 0-4-0 STs. I was mearly stating my reasoning for it's origin in the first place. A Pug is a dog with a pushed in face and many steam engines considered Pugs are saddle tanks with the smokebox flush with the tank. In other words a pushed in face just like the dog. But that is just my theory and in all likelyhood it is wrong. It would be a interesting reason if you ask me since I find both kinds of Pugs adorable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2017 Sam my friend you never fail to amaze me with your finds. That is quite clearly a vertical cylinder geared tank engine and by the looks od it I'd say it is quite close in build to Pugsy. I'd even go out on a limb and say it may even have been her at a earlier time with pannier tanks as opposed to later saddle arrangements the model depicts. I looked up the book in question for a image search on Google and found a photo of the other loco mentioned in that sale. Bristol is quite a interesting little loco too. I'm going to have to look into seeing if Abebooks has a copy of the book who knows may be affordable. Possibly even thanks to the Rev. Awdry helping it's use spread from Scotland. I'm quite aware that Pug was used mainly in the Caladonian, Highland and later LMS territorys and wasn't always a universal term for 0-4-0 STs. I was mearly stating my reasoning for it's origin in the first place. A Pug is a dog with a pushed in face and many steam engines considered Pugs are saddle tanks with the smokebox flush with the tank. In other words a pushed in face just like the dog. But that is just my theory and in all likelyhood it is wrong. It would be a interesting reason if you ask me since I find both kinds of Pugs adorable. Ah, you mean the dogs with the brakes that don't work... Didn't realise the Rev. Awdry was involved in this. I met him once many years ago at a show, lovely man but a bit, ethereal, somehow! Your explanation of the word's origin as applied to small steam locos is as good as any; I always though of it as describing something sort of pugnacious, that'll have a go at anything despite it's apparent lack of size or strength; many pugs have astonishing t.e. But that's only what I think, I don't really know how the word originated; it just sounds right, though, doesn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted March 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2017 Not sure the Reverend Awdry was involved - no Pugs in the original stories. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 7, 2017 Not sure the Reverend Awdry was involved - no Pugs in the original stories. To be fair to 844fan (can you imagine anything less pug-like that UP 844), he only said that it was 'possibly' thanks to Rev. Awdry that the word was transmitted to a wider audience. Nowadays everyone everywhere in the world of UK railways and modelling knows exactly what is meant by a pug, but even now it seems that the word is more appropriate to a main line railway's loco than an industrial, even though there was an overlap (Swansea Harbour Trust Pecketts and Avonsides for instance). And the side tank walcheart's Avonsides could never be pugs; I think we all know saddle tanks are a prequisite! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) totally off topic, but the awdry connection is true. A pug appeared in the story where Thoms and his friends travel to the mainland for a big exhibition. Thomas' branch line is left in the hands of two BR tank engines called Pug and Jinty Edited March 7, 2017 by Edge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 totally off topic, but the awdry connection is true. A pug appeared in the story where Thoms and his friends travel to the mainland for a big exhibition. Thomas' branch line is left in the hands of two BR tank engines called Pug and Jinty Was that a genuine Rev. Wilbert Awdry one - or one of those spin-offs produced, I believe, by his son? Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) I believe that it is a bona fide Awdry story. Can't recall the exact book at the moment, but I have the set at home I'll look it up EDIT: Eight Famous Engines Edited March 7, 2017 by Edge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I believe that it is a bona fide Awdry story. Can't recall the exact book at the moment, but I have the set at home I'll look it up EDIT: Eight Famous Engines Ah yes - published 1957; a true vintage Awdry !! Being eight at the time, I should have remembered that. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Nowadays everyone everywhere in the world of UK railways and modelling knows exactly what is meant by a pug, but even now it seems that the word is more appropriate to a main line railway's loco than an industrial, even though there was an overlap (Swansea Harbour Trust Pecketts and Avonsides for instance). And the side tank walcheart's Avonsides could never be pugs; I think we all know saddle tanks are a prequisite! In Scotland any small industrial loco was a pug. I have visited industrial sites in Scotland where the staff referred to the locos as pugs, even though they were narrow gauge diesels! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 Wow I didn't mean to cause a full on wreck of topic here nor a riot so to speak with my Pug comments. The term spread somehow and I first learned of it from Awdry's book myself. But I wasn't trying to imply he was the major reason just a push towards the nickname as it is today. I honestly like the use of Pug for certain tank engines just as I will always have a soft spot for the Terriers which live up to their name fully. Small, Nimble and stronger than they look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2017 totally off topic, but the awdry connection is true. A pug appeared in the story where Thoms and his friends travel to the mainland for a big exhibition. Thomas' branch line is left in the hands of two BR tank engines called Pug and Jinty Not even remotely off topic, it's a story with a pug in it! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Not even remotely off topic, it's a story with a pug in it! Well I'd say it is a siding off topic. It has to do with the topic at hand but it's not the through line. Not saying your wrong we are talking about pug tank engines. But I'm trying my best to locate info on one in particular "Pugsy" a geared saddle/pannier tank* from a sidings network. *I'm saying both saddle and pannier tank here because Sam's photo may or may not be Pugsy but a sister or brother that never gained saddle tanks and were Pannier all the time. Ah I find it funny that my family on my fathers side came from Scotland and me and my dad both love Pugs of all types. Iron or fuzzy they are adorable and dependable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted March 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2017 Well I'd say it is a siding off topic. It has to do with the topic at hand but it's not the through line. Not saying your wrong we are talking about pug tank engines. But I'm trying my best to locate info on one in particular "Pugsy" a geared saddle/pannier tank* from a sidings network. *I'm saying both saddle and pannier tank here because Sam's photo may or may not be Pugsy but a sister or brother that never gained saddle tanks and were Pannier all the time. Ah I find it funny that my family on my fathers side came from Scotland and me and my dad both love Pugs of all types. Iron or fuzzy they are adorable and dependable. There is no possible way that I could disagree with the last comment! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) She may have "remained more or less new all her life", but Pugsy was dead cheap as far as locos go even in those days! In a job lot of three locos costing £488, gives £162 6S 8d each which is even more amazing considering Pugsy was brand new at the time, an interesting boiler on this one too, with the round flue followed by conventional tubes, lamentable then, that her history after a sighting at Caledonian road in 1880 is evidently lost, one other thing, interesting that in Chronicles of Boultons siding, Alfred Rosling Bennett alludes to none other than Thomas Russell Crampton as being involved in the auction in some way Edited May 17, 2017 by Killian keane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeHemmings Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Would the pug have been the most common loco used in conjunction with iron making plants around the 1880s or are there others. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Would the pug have been the most common loco used in conjunction with iron making plants around the 1880s or are there others. Mike I'd say the 0-4-0st pug would have been the most common, but well tanks were also very popular back in those days also 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian keane Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 I bet the driver did not like it. It looks like right *** to oil up. Gordon A Not to mention she (or he?) wouldn't have had springs, what with the geared drive, buyers did shy away from the poor little engine, shame Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
844fan Posted September 1, 2017 Author Share Posted September 1, 2017 Not to mention she (or he?) wouldn't have had springs, what with the geared drive, buyers did shy away from the poor little engine, shame Could be fitted with them at one point couldn't she? I'm no expert but can they be given them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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