Bachmann Class 158 Status

[TomScrut]

The thing that concerns me about the possibility of a Northern and Scotrail 158 is that they are catering for Northern with the upcoming 150. Likewise Scotrail with the upcoming 170. How many people will want both? I think if somebody is modelling a local station then they would, but if modelling a main line the smaller DMUs tend to play accessories to the larger passenger and goods trains from what I can see and therefore people wouldn't want loads of different ones in the same liveries.

 

This time next year my fleet of day to day passenger stuff will be something like:

2x Scotrail Fife Circle mk2f/68 rakes

1x Inter7City HST

1x LNER 800

1x TPE mk5/68 rake

1 or 2x additional 80*/mk5 rake(s) depending on what I decide to do and if Hornby announce TPE/HT 802s.

 

I think a 158 or two would work well with these, but would I want a 150 and 170 too in the short term? Probably not. But I like the 158, for some reason it is one of my favorite DMUs, I aren't sure I'd buy the other two if they didn't do the 158.

 

I know the fleet don't run together in real life, I think I'd end up running the TPE/LNER together and Scotrail/LNER together as I couldn't fit it all on the layout at the same time anyway!

[The Black Hat]

The thing with the liveries will be that some of the sales people want will overlap with other models they have. As a result you can get models to run in the guise that will go with other selections. Wider ranges mean more cross sales for an area, which helps with the release. Some might want one, others both, but having the pair match each other helps those wanting both and matching both to others done for the same region or area also builds more of a demand for them.

As a result, I would do the 158 in Northern Purple and Blue to match the Bachmann 150, the Realtrack and Hornby 156's, the Hornby 142 with Realtrack to follow and the Hornby 153.

Yet, to be honest Bachmann are missing a trick with frequent re-runs of popular types. Realtrack have shown that popular well made models can sell and satisfy demand for popular periods that exist. Especially when runs are done at opposite ends of the models timeframe or opposite ends of the country so the geographical areas done overlap. Bachmann have done this with things like class 37 and 47s being done in alternative years, but the number of models done is still low and when models can be done with very minor differences like branding being included to have it as a separate release.

Bachmann could easily do runs with the following:

Northern Blue and Purple 158 - livery as standard
Northern Blue and Purple 158 - unbranded
Northern Blue and Purple 158 - route advertised branding
Central Trains Green and Black - livery as standard
Central Trains Green and Black - unbranded
Central Trains Green and Black - Northern branded
Scotrail First Scotrail - branded
Scotrail First Scotrail - unbranded

I have avoided doing Scotrail Spotrail as the lights are different and although Im sure that the team at Barwell will include these theres no confirmation at present. However it does show that several models can be done to get popular releases done and even make more of them overall - which would only be good and get Bachmann in a good return for the model they make.

[TomScrut]

26 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

Bachmann could easily do runs with the following:

Northern Blue and Purple 158 - livery as standard
Northern Blue and Purple 158 - unbranded
Northern Blue and Purple 158 - route advertised branding
Central Trains Green and Black - livery as standard
Central Trains Green and Black - unbranded
Central Trains Green and Black - Northern branded
Scotrail First Scotrail - branded
Scotrail First Scotrail - unbranded

 

When you say First ScotRail do you mean the Barbie livery?

 

Weirdly enough though I'd not be bothered about any of them, Northern I'd want the newest livery (with or without the Arriva branding) and ScotRail I'd want the saltire livery (which has been around a long time now), wouldn't be too fussed if it was First or Abellio but would prefer Abellio. I also think that the old 158 did get made in the older Northern livery and ScotRail Barbie already, could be wrong though.

 

But if the OP is correct and they are thinking 2 and 3 car Northern, 3 car new 2 car old would work best, as far as I am aware the 3 cars have all been repainted now but there are plenty of 2 cars knocking about in the older colours.

[The Black Hat]

27 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

When you say First ScotRail do you mean the Barbie livery?

 

Weirdly enough though I'd not be bothered about any of them, Northern I'd want the newest livery (with or without the Arriva branding) and ScotRail I'd want the saltire livery (which has been around a long time now), wouldn't be too fussed if it was First or Abellio but would prefer Abellio. I also think that the old 158 did get made in the older Northern livery and ScotRail Barbie already, could be wrong though.

 

But if the OP is correct and they are thinking 2 and 3 car Northern, 3 car new 2 car old would work best, as far as I am aware the 3 cars have all been repainted now but there are plenty of 2 cars knocking about in the older colours.

 

Yes I meant First Scotrail Barbie livery as then you can do one massive run of bodies for the units, with no need to alter the tooling to take into account the fact that the lights are different on the Scotrail Saltire livery and thus would need a change. Then all Bachmann do is do the matching liveries in a further batch - then with a load of them done in the same livery its just the branding that changes so it can be done in stages. Its clearly how Realtrack have done theirs, but Bachmann could easily learn from the process.

Id do the New Northern Rail Blue and White as a follow up release so that you hit the popular Blue and Purple demand that goes along side the range that exists now and then follow up the year after with the current livery. Otherwise you risk diminishing the sales of the Blue and Purple when people get a current one an shift the time scale they model. I would think they are much more likely to get one that mirrors there fleet and then another more current one afterwards  but not if the other way round.

[TomScrut]

15 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

 

Yes I meant First Scotrail Barbie livery as then you can do one massive run of bodies for the units, with no need to alter the tooling to take into account the fact that the lights are different on the Scotrail Saltire livery and thus would need a change. Then all Bachmann do is do the matching liveries in a further batch - then with a load of them done in the same livery its just the branding that changes so it can be done in stages. Its clearly how Realtrack have done theirs, but Bachmann could easily learn from the process.

Id do the New Northern Rail Blue and White as a follow up release so that you hit the popular Blue and Purple demand that goes along side the range that exists now and then follow up the year after with the current livery. Otherwise you risk diminishing the sales of the Blue and Purple when people get a current one an shift the time scale they model. I would think they are much more likely to get one that mirrors there fleet and then another more current one afterwards  but not if the other way round.

 

I suppose the risk at the moment thinking about the future is that Northern are obviously on OOLR at the moment, and that could eventually lead to a rebranding. In the other recent instance of this it didn't lead to a complete re-livery (Virgin to LNER) but I think this is just because it didn't go on long enough before the IEP trains came in (albeit with the branding Virgin designed).

 

I do accept your point about the lights on the Scotrail ones of late, this is also the case with some Northern ones (I presume the ones handed down from Scotrail). I do think this could be sorted with printing over that window though?

[159220]

I have also heard rumours about Northern, TfW and SWT 158/159s. I am sure everyone has noted, more GWR 158s are 'due' in May...which might suggest the 'Summer' announcement for the following quarter period might feature more 158/159s. Just what SWT livery to choose! Original (small SWT brand and half red doors), ex-C6 (large SWT brand, front orange doors, rest full red), ex-C6 adjusted (large SWT brand, all orange doors) or ex-C6/compliant build (weird ass triangles rather than the swoosh). Hmmm!!! I'd buy at least 4 of any but of the weird ass triangles! 

 

+ two on the FGW local Lines...though for more... how about a Wessex Trains Alphalines up to a modern tool standard! Only one thing ran later than Bachmann 158 and that was any of Wessex Trains Alphaline services! If you choose the right number, the ex-Wessex Trains Alphalines livery continued in Northern and Scotrail. I fell off my pub chair when I saw an Alpha at Edinburgh Waverley once! 

 

20 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I suppose the risk at the moment thinking about the future is that Northern are obviously on OOLR at the moment, and that could eventually lead to a rebranding. In the other recent instance of this it didn't lead to a complete re-livery (Virgin to LNER) but I think this is just because it didn't go on long enough before the IEP trains came in (albeit with the branding Virgin designed).

 

I do accept your point about the lights on the Scotrail ones of late, this is also the case with some Northern ones (I presume the ones handed down from Scotrail). I do think this could be sorted with printing over that window though?

 

The 'Northern' brand and light grey livery as currently worn is a DfT owned 'brand'. The only thing changing the 'operated by...<insert owning group>. As such, if a train is grey, it's here to stay. The only wonder for Bachmann would be to tampo print 'by Arriva' or not. Possibly better to print it, as then the modeller can easily remove if they wish my the usual ways to remove a tampo print. 

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, 159220 said:

The 'Northern' brand and light grey livery as currently worn is a DfT owned 'brand'. The only thing changing the 'operated by...<insert owning group>. As such, if a train is grey, it's here to stay. The only wonder for Bachmann would be to tampo print 'by Arriva' or not. Possibly better to print it, as then the modeller can easily remove if they wish my the usual ways to remove a tampo print. 

 

I agree, for now, but given time they may rebrand. They did with East Coast and I think they did the other time it came to pass (was it southwest trains or somebody?)

[159220]

DOR East Coast pre-dates the DfT policy written into all post 2012 franchise agreements that train liveries are grey, and brands remain the same through a change over. The only change being 'operated by....'. South West Trains was Stagecoach, even though the SWT brand is actually owned by the DfT. It was decided by the DfT to 'disquinish' the franchise going forward and bringing synergies with other franchises to re-brand the Wessex franchise to South Western Railway - a brand which shall remain, along with the DfT Grey livery. 

 

No doubt you have noted, the DfT is the all seeing and governing eye of the railway. Whether franchise, direct award or management contract. 

 

The DfT Grey on the Northern units inc. the C4/C6 class 158s is to remain. If it turns into a concession post EMA and Williams, you'll be seeing DfT grey with the 'Northern' brand for another 7-10 years. I am willing to bet you a class 158 model on it! 

[The Black Hat]

On ‎31‎/‎03‎/‎2020 at 14:22, TomScrut said:

 

I agree, for now, but given time they may rebrand. They did with East Coast and I think they did the other time it came to pass (was it southwest trains or somebody?)

theres been a move to shift franchise operating companies away from liveries to do with those running the franchise. The rebrand of LNER was due to the franchise having Virgin to start with. Northern will be left as is with the Blue and White. The only change will be 'operated by Arriva' which will go. The same has happened with the Scotrail Franchise. GWR in Green has become a house colour with again, operated by First Group.

That way there are a number of ways that the operators can change but the cost of livery changes and the amount of them is likely to reduce as now they don't always match the company colours of those running the Franchise, such as Arriva Green and Cream, or Stagecoach colours on Franchise stock.

[The Black Hat]

Does anyone know if the 159, has the motor in the centre coach, or is it in one of the end coaches of the unit?

[TomScrut]

12 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

theres been a move to shift franchise operating companies away from liveries to do with those running the franchise. The rebrand of LNER was due to the franchise having Virgin to start with. Northern will be left as is with the Blue and White. The only change will be 'operated by Arriva' which will go. The same has happened with the Scotrail Franchise. GWR in Green has become a house colour with again, operated by First Group.

That way there are a number of ways that the operators can change but the cost of livery changes and the amount of them is likely to reduce as now they don't always match the company colours of those running the Franchise, such as Arriva Green and Cream, or Stagecoach colours on Franchise stock.

 

In fairness it makes sense really to avoid confusion too. So is this becoming policy everywhere then? Such as TPE which is a bit of a strange franchise really as it doesn't cover an area as such just a few routes with what is otherwise Northern, LNER and Avani West Coast's territory.

[JDW]

23 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

Does anyone know if the 159, has the motor in the centre coach, or is it in one of the end coaches of the unit?

 

Its exactly the same as the 2-car units, the inner bogie of each outer car is driven via a drive shaft from a chassis-mounted motor

[The Black Hat]

2 minutes ago, JDW said:

 

Its exactly the same as the 2-car units, the inner bogie of each outer car is driven via a drive shaft from a chassis-mounted motor

 

Thanks. Was just thinking about variations of the model. Bachmann could easily do the number I mentioned in a post on the last page as 2 car models and have the 3 car in Northern Blue and Purple, Regional Railways Express and 159 in South West Trains Stagecoach livery...

These would easily be very good sellers. Especially the 3 car RR machine, but I can see all of these flying off the shelves and still leaving demand for the 2 car ones as mentioned. If Hattons can shift loads of 66, Bachmann could easily shift loads of these 158. I don't know why they wait...

[sc2016]

On 30/03/2020 at 11:11, Shoey said:

Just hope they finally manage to crack the FGW ‘local lines’ livery - just as Realtrack models have on their 143’s....! 

 

I don't work for Bachmann but i overheard once in a model shop that it doesn't sound like the Local Lines element of the livery is the problem it is the graduation of the blue background livery. This would probably affect both the local lines versions of the Class 150 & 158.

 

 

The Realtrack Class 143 is also wrong in the background livery as it appears to be in just a single blue livery but because of the nature of the units it doesn't appear that obvious compared to other Local Lines DMU's where you would notice the livery error more.

 

Samuel.

Edited April 1, 2020 by sc2016

[newbryford]

5 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

 

Thanks. Was just thinking about variations of the model. Bachmann could easily do the number I mentioned in a post on the last page as 2 car models and have the 3 car in Northern Blue and Purple, Regional Railways Express and 159 in South West Trains Stagecoach livery...

These would easily be very good sellers. Especially the 3 car RR machine, but I can see all of these flying off the shelves and still leaving demand for the 2 car ones as mentioned. If Hattons can shift loads of 66, Bachmann could easily shift loads of these 158. I don't know why they wait...

 

I guess price is a major issue.

Folks are happy to pay £160 for a non-sound loco, but loathe to pay £200 for a 2-car DMU.

I reckon part of the fault is that we - generally - UK modellers are loco-centric

Look at those buying 4-6 of the 66s. I bet they wouldn't buy 4-6 DMUs - even if they were £160

 

 

[sc2016]

8 minutes ago, newbryford said:

I reckon part of the fault is that we - generally - UK modellers are loco-centric

Look at those buying 4-6 of the 66s. I bet they wouldn't buy 4-6 DMUs - even if they were £160

 

Also i think that you can get away more with locomotives as they tend to travel further and go to different areas in real life than DMUs do. Also the DMUs usually stick to certain routes operated by the franchise that they have been leased to and don't tend to go to other regions unless they are hired in by another franchise or going to a place to be refurbished or for maintenance.

[TomScrut]

19 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

I guess price is a major issue.

Folks are happy to pay £160 for a non-sound loco, but loathe to pay £200 for a 2-car DMU.

I reckon part of the fault is that we - generally - UK modellers are loco-centric

Look at those buying 4-6 of the 66s. I bet they wouldn't buy 4-6 DMUs - even if they were £160

 

 

 

I don't get it TBH. A £220 DMU is probably pro rata with locos.

 

But look at what Hornby get away with charging for 2 "locos" with the HST. That's effectively the same as a 2 car DMU in manufacturing terms?

 

If you think about the 5 car Hornby 800, I don't think it's bad value at all at £355 after the standard 10% discount they are allowed on pre orders. I think £151 for power car, £81 for the other end car, then you're paying £41 a carriage, which from what I can tell isn't bad value at that detail level. The power car and other end car are still cheaper than a HST pack after the standard 10% too despite being significantly larger and requiring internal details.

[newbryford]

21 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

I don't get it TBH. A £220 DMU is probably pro rata with locos.

 

 

 

 

 

That was my point. A lot of people will not pay more for a DMU than a loco - despite it being

pro-rata.

 

Go back to my original post - would those same folks happily buying fleets of 66s, buy fleets of 158s?

 

I have one 158, but many, many 66s (but only one of the Hattons variety so far)

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by newbryford

[TomScrut]

22 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

That was my point. A lot of people will not pay more for a DMU than a loco - despite it being

pro-rata.

 

Go back to my original post - would those same folks happily buying fleets of 66s, buy fleets of 158s?

 

I have one 158, but many, many 66s (but only one of the Hattons variety so far)

 

 

 

 

Sorry it wasn't that I didn't get your point. It was that I don't get why people will buy loads of £150 locos, yet baulk at the idea of a 2 car DMU being what they are.

 

I think it's that locos have far more variation. I'll have 4 modern loco hauled rakes, a HST and probably several MUs before long, but the freight locos will outnumber them heavily. Purely because of the variation in liveries etc. The only two locos I'll probably have of the same class in the same livery are the 2 Dapol 68s. Also it's worth noting that most people won't renumber, and also most manufacturers don't do multiple MUs in the same livery.

 

There will be plenty of people with several HSTs in the same livery. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the upcoming ScotRail units do well despite last year's release in the same livery, because people will want both sets.

 

Likewise I am expecting both Hornby's LNER 800s to go to similar homes, and not to be mutually exclusive of each other. I have seen plenty of videos with more than one GWR 800 on IIRC.

 

So I think there are a few reasons that lead to it.

 

1. Locos being easier to handle on and off layout.

2. Locos being more varied in liveries.

3. Manufacturers not making multiple numbers of the same MU in same livery (something they don't bat an eyelid at with locos or HSTs).

[The Black Hat]

19 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

I guess price is a major issue.

Folks are happy to pay £160 for a non-sound loco, but loathe to pay £200 for a 2-car DMU.

I reckon part of the fault is that we - generally - UK modellers are loco-centric

Look at those buying 4-6 of the 66s. I bet they wouldn't buy 4-6 DMUs - even if they were £160

 

 

 

You might be onto something but I think there are three main reasons:

1. You can swap a locomotive onto different stock... ie you buy one rake of wagons then can swap the locomotive to haul said rake over and over. You don't do that as much with a unit, as the unit is the whole train unless (rarely) running in multiple.
2. Locomotives tend to be the fun workings, yes you need units to do services but then these can make repeat appearances. A locomotive on its own can do a number of things and sit alongside other classes. They can do depot layouts, small stock moves or be on full size workings. So the temptation is to get more of them.
3. I think partly the issue with units is that they do not match the standard of loco models. Bachmann almost monopolised the 1st gen unit market a few years ago and their units matched the standard of locos at the time. They sell a lot to pitch at the transition and BR blue market. Where as second gen units have only just been retooled from early models that were done when the prototypes were first introduced and thus match (or should match) the standard of the locos being done.
3.a. The problem then is volume. Not all of these have been done in the number needed and I think many would be surprised of the number of people modelling a much more recent time frame - Id even suggest its level pegging with BR transition period. Really for top spec, you have the Hornby 153, the Realtrack 156 and 144. Bachmann 150 could be included as that's the option for that unit. But people are waiting for and wanting the Realtrack 142, the Bachmann 158 and 170. The Voyager and Meridian are probably due a retool. So even if you want these top spec models they are not actually there and in some cases not in the liveries you want so many people cant buy them.

If the models were there in the right guise then I think people would move to get them - or save knowing they were coming in a reasonable time frame. That's why I don't get why some companies are not churning these out as they are sure winners for sales. But you cant tell Bachmann what to do, they will still just do two or three options when they could choose 4 or 5 as I have said earlier. Will Hornby move to doing a unit as catch up? Will another company move on the class 180 / 220/221/222 / 175... if they were there then I think people would move towards the £200 a unit mark as they will pay that for an HST set. If the unit is there in the right livery with the right features then I think your onto a winner, which Is why I think the Realtrack approach is great... its just a shame they can't make more, more often. In terms of second gen units they are the bench mark and trend setters at the moment, its time for other companies to take note, learn and see if they can match it.

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, The Black Hat said:

Will Hornby move to doing a unit as catch up

 

I'd say the 800 is probably a big move in that respect. Excellent foresight though going for it as these (and close relatives) will only get more numerous and therefore more liveries and reasons to make them (much to the dismay of some people, not me, I like them)

[TravisM]

4 hours ago, The 158 Man said:

I haven't seen anyone mention the 2-Car Express ScotRail livery yet but I'd have at least one. 

Scotrail Class 170’s are 3 car sets or at least they used to be.

[TomScrut]

5 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Scotrail Class 170’s are 3 car sets or at least they used to be.

 

Not sure what you mean? This thread is about 158s and I think the OP was referring to a 2 car 158 in the original "express" provincial (ish) livery with ScotRail branding? 

 

I think all ScotRail's 170s are 3 car though as you say....

['CHARD]

16 minutes ago, The 158 Man said:

Dunno where you've got 170s from?

 

I'm on about this:

 

 

Not sure what you're getting at.  The adjacent unit is a 2-car, and 158729 is heading up a pair of 2-car units.

 

EDIT: I am with you now - no-one's said 158s ran as 3-car for ScotRail, you would like to see this livery RTR.

 

Sorry for the confusion!

Edited April 11, 2020 by 'CHARD
Confusion

['CHARD]

6 minutes ago, The 158 Man said:

What on earth is going on here that people are getting confused with?

 

...

 

I know the picture shows a 2+2 (4 car) formation. I posted the picture purely to display the livery.

 

I don't understand how this has turned into 170s...

 

Me neither - the 170s were a red herring and unauthorised diversion.  I mistakenly thought that 3-car Scottish units had been asked for.  Anyway, back on topic....