Graham Farish 2018 - the full announcements

[njee20]

Well, no... because by your own admission they're more detailed. You just don't want to pay for that, which is fine. I've got plenty of older wagons with less detail and they're perfectly good. But they're not as good as the best RTR wagons - such as Revolution's TEAs.

[Bomag]

Well, no... because by your own admission they're more detailed. You just don't want to pay for that, which is fine. I've got plenty of older wagons with less detail and they're perfectly good. But they're not as good as the best RTR wagons - such as Revolution's TEAs.

 

There is a difference between less detailed and inaccurate. Some Peco models e.g. the 'OBA' are nothing like the real thing.

[njee20]

Fair enough, wasn't commenting on that specifically - I do think there's a market for less detailed (and cheaper) RTR or kits, but that just adds to the choice, it's not an either/or. I'd never say "look how cheap this Peco kit is, clearly a current Farish release is overpriced".

[grahame]

I'm not complaining.

Hmmm, not quite the impression I've been getting.   

 

All it does is highlight it costs 10 pounds extra to have the thing assembled today by someone in China.

Not just assembly but painting and applying decals - which you'll need to purchase in addition to the Peco kit. And, unfortunately, it is undertaking a decent paint finish that many people baulk at attempting. I guess that there are those who are more than happy to pay the extra for someone to do that for them.

 

G

 

[Roy L S]

Actually a lot less well detailed, nothing like as accurate or representative of the real thing, Peco wagons haven't moved on since the 1970s in many respects, in fact much of the tooling originates from that time. Peco have improved finishing without question and their weathered wagons look pretty reasonable but they are what they are.

 

But then is that any bad thing? I like the modern super detailed stuff and buy that. I accept that this comes at a premium price, especially these days. Having Peco also available is akin to having a "Railroad" range of wagons. This provides a choice and nobody is the loser for that.

 

Roy

[Seanem44]

Actually a lot less well detailed, nothing like as accurate or representative of the real thing, Peco wagons haven't moved on since the 1970s in many respects, in fact much of the tooling originates from that time. Peco have improved finishing without question and their weathered wagons look pretty reasonable but they are what they are.

 

But then is that any bad thing? I like the modern super detailed stuff and buy that. I accept that this comes at a premium price, especially these days. Having Peco also available is akin to having a "Railroad" range of wagons. This provides a choice and nobody is the loser for that.

 

Roy

Exactly...

 

And here's the thing about it...  I'm going to use a Star Wars analogy, so please keep with me.

 

In Star Wars, you have Storm Troopers and their Iconic Uniforms.  There were two variants.  The Hero and Stunt versions.  The Hero versions were built much finer and used in close ups like when Luke and Han were wearing them.  The stunt version were made more quickly and lacked the fine detail.  However, when you have hundreds of Troopers about in the background, you cant tell the difference.

 

Same principle.  You can purchase some more expensive wagons for your "up close" shots.  However, the Peco kits give the ability to create dozens more for the background where you are less likely to notice the deficiencies.

 

Choice is a great thing for the consumer.  I buy expensive wagons now and then.  I buy kits now and then.  There is a time and a place for both.  And its good we have both.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Seanem44

[grahame]

Same principle. You can purchase some more expensive wagons for your "up close" shots. However, the Peco kits give the ability to create dozens more for the background where you are less likely to notice the deficiencies.

 

Not really. Building and running a model railway layout is not exactly the same as filming a structured and scripted movie. You can change your veiwing position and there aren't exclusive specific 'close-ups' as decided by the director. Anywhere on the layout can become a close up.

 

And eventually those wagons, initially consigned to a background location, won't necessarily stay there (as extras would be directed in a film). They are likely to be run and come around to the front of the layout. Plus you can't really run both types of wagon in the same train as the difference will be obvious when next to each other (both in the background and close up).

 

I (and I guess most modellers) try to ensure that the whole layout is both as detailed and as accurate as I'm able to achieve and finished to a consistent standard across all elements and parts of the layout. I wouldn't deliberately have some parts made to a lesser standard.

 

G.

Edited March 16, 2018 by grahame

[Seanem44]

Not really. Building and running a model railway layout is not exactly the same as filming a structured and scripted movie. You can change your veiwing position and there aren't exclusive specific 'close-ups' as decided by the director. Anywhere on the layout can become a close up.

 

And eventually those wagons, initially consigned to a background location, won't necessarily stay there (as extras would be directed in a film). They are likely to be run and come around to the front of the layout. Plus you can't really run both types of wagon in the same train as the difference will be obvious when next to each other (both in the background and close up).

 

I (and I guess most modellers) try to ensure that the whole layout is both as detailed and as accurate as I'm able to achieve and finished to a consistent standard across all elements and parts of the layout. I wouldn't deliberately have some parts made to a lesser standard.

 

G.

That's fine... and that's your prerogative.  But I am confident there are plenty out there that would rather pay 4.00 for a kit than 14.00 for a super detailed specific wagon that they need 100 of.

 

Combined with the fact we are talking about N gauge here, and at the angles and distance were going to be viewing...  those wagons sitting in a yard not being paid much attention to are certainly going to cost a premium for something doing just that.  

 

If this was OO, I'm completely for the best and most accurate.  N gauge though...  unless you have 20/20 vision and eyes like a hawk, were getting into some detail most (other than you, which again is completely your right that I support) will never even see or notice.

[grahame]

That's fine... and that's your prerogative.  But I am confident there are plenty out there that would rather pay 4.00 for a kit than 14.00 for a super detailed specific wagon that they need 100 of.

 

Combined with the fact we are talking about N gauge here, and at the angles and distance were going to be viewing...  those wagons sitting in a yard not being paid much attention to are certainly going to cost a premium for something doing just that.  

 

If this was OO, I'm completely for the best and most accurate.  N gauge though...  unless you have 20/20 vision and eyes like a hawk, were getting into some detail most (other than you, which again is completely your right that I support) will never even see or notice.

 

I think you might have missed the point I was trying to make. It was nothing to do with the cost, but the level of detail (and accuracy) and your analogy of making Star Wars films. You certainly don't need eyes like a hawk to see the details in N gauge. And usually N gauge layout baseboards are fairly narrow so the background is not far away. Plus the wagons won't remain in the background if you decide to run them, or move your viewing position. I don't know of many people who buy wagons just for static background props, especially not 100 of them as you suggest.

 

With regards to costs, the Peco wagon kits are around £5 each but then you have got to build them, paint them and add decals. And that will cost time and money. Also many would prefer accurate wagons rather than generic ones plus, unfortunately, the Peco kit range doesn't provide a great deal of choice - for example no bogie stock.

 

But yes, of course, probably everyone would prefer to pay £5 each for their wagons - that's human nature. Just so long as they fitted their requirements.

 

G

[justin1985]

Same principle.  You can purchase some more expensive wagons for your "up close" shots.  However, the Peco kits give the ability to create dozens more for the background where you are less likely to notice the deficiencies.

 

There is some logic to this - some layouts DO have scene setting that could allow you to combine more and less detailed stock in this kind of way. 

 

If you have a shunting yard at the front of the layout, but all other trains are only seen in motion, you could potentially use less detailed PECO wagons for the trains only seen in motion, and more detailed "jewel" models in the shunting yard at the front, where viewers get the chance to examine them more closely and for longer. 

 

e.g. Copenhagen Fields has "Mrs Wilberforce's Yard" at the front, which has its own dedicated set of stock, and different sets of stock get used on the GN and NLR goods lines. In practice we don't differentiate by detail - in fact the wagons on Mrs Wilberforce's yard are quite a mix of everything from scratchbuilt to PECO. Some of the wagons only seen in motion on the GN goods lines are entirely composed of much higher detail models like a train of the recent Farish LNER vans, and there are some exquisitely detailed kit and scratch built MR wagons that often run on the NLR.

 

I think this logic only works on a big layout like CF though!

 

J

[Seanem44]

There is some logic to this - some layouts DO have scene setting that could allow you to combine more and less detailed stock in this kind of way.

 

If you have a shunting yard at the front of the layout, but all other trains are only seen in motion, you could potentially use less detailed PECO wagons for the trains only seen in motion, and more detailed "jewel" models in the shunting yard at the front, where viewers get the chance to examine them more closely and for longer.

 

e.g. Copenhagen Fields has "Mrs Wilberforce's Yard" at the front, which has its own dedicated set of stock, and different sets of stock get used on the GN and NLR goods lines. In practice we don't differentiate by detail - in fact the wagons on Mrs Wilberforce's yard are quite a mix of everything from scratchbuilt to PECO. Some of the wagons only seen in motion on the GN goods lines are entirely composed of much higher detail models like a train of the recent Farish LNER vans, and there are some exquisitely detailed kit and scratch built MR wagons that often run on the NLR.

 

I think this logic only works on a big layout like CF though!

 

J

Yep... that’s what I’m getting at. And maybe I’m just used to the much larger layouts we have here in the US, with much larger freight yards. Populating one of those with super detailed everything would get pretty expensive.

[Dr Al]

There's plenty of milage in using older stock - it can be obtained cheaper (especially stuff with rough paintwork or missing wheels or couplers if you're willing to do some fettling). Moreover, some wagon prototypes simply can't be bought new, in any form - e.g. bogie sulphate wagons, PGAs, and old style square tanked tanker wagons.

 

Even basic changes can lift an older wagon - changing the wheels to new fine profile blackened ones (Bachfarish for old Farish wagons, and Parkside/Romfords for Peco), or repainting and weathering are simple ways to integrate older stock into a fleet. Doing so gives you something unique - not just another same superdetail wagon plonked on from the box.

 

I don't think people should be criticised for using such stock as there are plenty of good reasons to do so, and with care it can be integrated into fleets of modern stock.

 

Cheers,
Alan

[Seanem44]

There's plenty of milage in using older stock - it can be obtained cheaper (especially stuff with rough paintwork or missing wheels or couplers if you're willing to do some fettling). Moreover, some wagon prototypes simply can't be bought new, in any form - e.g. bogie sulphate wagons, PGAs, and old style square tanked tanker wagons.

 

Even basic changes can lift an older wagon - changing the wheels to new fine profile blackened ones (Bachfarish for old Farish wagons, and Parkside/Romfords for Peco), or repainting and weathering are simple ways to integrate older stock into a fleet. Doing so gives you something unique - not just another same superdetail wagon plonked on from the box.

 

I don't think people should be criticised for using such stock as there are plenty of good reasons to do so, and with care it can be integrated into fleets of modern stock.

 

Cheers,

Alan

I think with current prices rising, you are going to see a lot more old stock being snatched up for just this purpose.  A quick blast of an airbrush... some rust effects...  there is much that can be done to overcome poor factory paint, etc.  I know many who were buying the Thomas line wagons, etc. and re-purposing them as they have been sold very cheap at times.  I suppose this only matters for hard core rivet counters.  And that's their prerogative.  Nothing wrong with wanting the most accurate and detailed available either.  Everyone has their needs and desires.

[John M Upton]

Indeed older stuff now seems to be increasing in price, old tooling Class 101 DMU's, even ones that are non runners are starting to be sold for silly money

[Dr Al]

Indeed older stuff now seems to be increasing in price, old tooling Class 101 DMU's, even ones that are non runners are starting to be sold for silly money

 

BR green DMUs are unendingly popular in particular, and now all new ones have generally sold out, demand is pushing secondhand prices up again.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Seanem44]

BR green DMUs are unendingly popular in particular, and now all new ones have generally sold out, demand is pushing secondhand prices up again.

 

Cheers,

Alan

Yup.  It's a trickle down effect.  And saavy sellers are going to slowly start reaping the benefits off of this.

 

Sadly, prices will increase all around. 

[TomE]

There is a CAD image of the refurb class 31 in the latest Bachmann Collectors Club magazine, so this appears to be making progress relatively quickly!

 

Tom.