Realistic model - BR MK III with fire damage?

[Dave777]

Was after a different piece of rolling stock on my 70’s Challenge layout of a Mk III coach having suffered a fire on board… but just wanted to see if this was a realistic idea or not.

 

I was thinking that I could have a Mk III with fire damage that has been taken out of a rake at a station off-stage to enable the train to continue onwards, and so now there’s a coach which needs shunting into the nearest available sidings (which would be my modelled station naturally ) for later transportation to a carriage works. I was going to model a fire having occurred in the passenger compartment itself (as opposed to, say, a stuck brake or something having caused a problem on the underframe), perhaps with a window missing and suitable fire damage around the roof area above it.

 

Is this a likely scenario? If so, how might the Mk III have been transported to the sidings - would it just be coupled to a loco or would a brake van have been shoved on the other end?

 

(the only reason I’m using a Mk III is because I can then employ the neat Dapol model)

 

Thanks in advance.

[cromptonnut]

Inspiration? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taunton_sleeping_car_fire

[Stubby47]

The last line of the link from cromptonnut says :

 

"The old Mark 1 sleeping cars were phased out by the early 1980s, and so far the Mark 3s have had an excellent safety record."

 

So probably not 100% prototypical to use a Mk 3 coach, but it's your layout .

 

Stu

[Gwiwer]

I can't recall any incident where a fire occurred in or on a Mk3 coach in service other than cases where there has been a collision as well such as Ladbroke Grove. Perhaps not prototypical for Mk3 but it did very occasionally happen with Mk1 stock, sometimes the result of arson on football specials. It also occurred on rare occasions as a result of faults on earlier stock. I well remember a 2BIL unit (2050 or 2052 comes to mind?) freshly outshopped in BR blue and dumped in the siding at Ford following a fire though this may have been confined to the greasy bits; you mention your preference for an interior fire.

 

I see no reason why you should not model a "might have been" since many of us do that all the time. If it was carefully done it could look rather dramatic and certainly effective.

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi Dave

 

A DMU would be more likely. Or how about a Mk3 on a wheel skate? Perhaps a bit too subtle?

 

HTH

 

Jim

[Oldddudders]

Fire on a train is a hideous thing, because the draught of the motion helps it accelerate rapidly, and as we know, even if you pull the cord, the train can't quite stop on a sixpence. Cromptonnut's grisly link makes the severity pretty obvious, but because of that, the idea that a coach would be detached, while the rest of the train went on its way, is clearly never going to be allowed, since any fire of such magnitude to "stop" a vehicle is going to invoke a major inquiry, thus the train will terminate - in open country if necessary - with passengers detrained. The whole train will then, having been examined for basic safety systems etc, (i.e. brakes and other key systems operable in, or at least through, the damaged vehicle) be moved - at a prescribed slow pace - in its entirety to a nearby siding, there to be left, the damaged portions covered in tarpaulins, and further examined at leisure by the necessary experts to determine cause etc. I suggest that only after that examination process has been concluded, photos taken and all evidence prepared, will consideration be given to moving any vehicles. At that point the damaged coach may indeed be removed from the rake and the rest of the rake released for depot attention, since it would be likely that smoke-logging etc has damaged or tainted adjacent vehicles, inside or out.

 

I never had to deal with a fire on a train, and I'm jolly grateful!

[Guest stuartp]

What Oldddudders said.

 

Most likely cause of an internal fire on a Mk3 is a discarded fag end in a litter bin. By the time you've caused enough damage to the outside for it to be noticeable (as opposed to just a bit of melted trim and some smoke damage to the vestibule) you're looking at a major incident.

 

What would be plausible is a vehicle that's been detatched somewhere a bit rough for a minor operating fault (dragging brakes, hot box etc) and then set on fire by the locals.

 

A DMU would be more likely. Or how about a Mk3 on a wheel skate? Perhaps a bit too subtle?

 

A 2mm wheelskate - there's a challenge for you !

[The Stationmaster]

Inspiration? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taunton_sleeping_car_fire

 

To be perfectly honest if you had seen those sleeping cars 'the morning after', or had to venture inside one a day or so later (which I did), you wouldn't find any of it in the least bit inspirational - and to capture the full atmosphere you'd need to model a lot more than the vehicle itself; there tends to be a lot of mess around it as material is taken out by investigators etc. As far as the vehicles involved in the Taunton fire were concerned after the Fire Service investigators had finished it took a BT Police team several weeks to go through them removing material, including luggage etc, as all of it was potential evidence and in any case all property had to be accounted for.

 

As a consequence of the Taunton fire the introduction of then almost complete Mk3 Sleeping Cars was delayed in order to fit massively increased fire protection including sophisticated detection systems and changes of materials etc to reduce flammability so the chances of one them suffering noticeable fire damage is fairly remote (unless they happen to be in a carriage shed which burns down or they're involved in a Ladbroke Grove type collision)

 

As Ian has said, train fires involving Mk3s have been pretty rare - there was Ladbroke Grove (which wasn't a fire but an aftermath of collision as already noted) and I witnessed one of the other two I know about - both of which were largely external fires due to ruptured and ignited fuel tanks. These latter sort of fires are quite spectacular and leave everything covered in black/with scorched paint but tend, fortuantely not to lead to much beyond a bad scare for passengers and possible imjury during train evacuation.

 

Strangely the only train fire I have ever had to 'fight' was an underframe fire on an SR demu - and as it turned out it was just as well the local vounteer Fire Brigade wasn't on strike with their full-time colleagues. But with the help of Kernow/Bachmann you'll soon be able to reproduce that and you even substitute a Green Goddess as a 'strike-breaking' fire engine in attendance.

[Fat Controller]

To be perfectly honest if you had seen those sleeping cars 'the morning after', or had to venture inside one a day or so later (which I did), you wouldn't find any of it in the least bit inspirational - and to capture the full atmosphere you'd need to model a lot more than the vehicle itself; there tends to be a lot of mess around it as material is taken out by investigators etc. As far as the vehicles involved in the Taunton fire were concerned after the Fire Service investigators had finished it took a BT Police team several weeks to go through them removing material, including luggage etc, as all of it was potential evidence and in any case all property had to be accounted for.

 

As a consequence of the Taunton fire the introduction of then almost complete Mk3 Sleeping Cars was delayed in order to fit massively increased fire protection including sophisticated detection systems and changes of materials etc to reduce flammability so the chances of one them suffering noticeable fire damage is fairly remote (unless they happen to be in a carriage shed which burns down or they're involved in a Ladbroke Grove type collision)

 

As Ian has said, train fires involving Mk3s have been pretty rare - there was Ladbroke Grove (which wasn't a fire but an aftermath of collision as already noted) and I witnessed one of the other two I know about - both of which were largely external fires due to ruptured and ignited fuel tanks. These latter sort of fires are quite spectacular and leave everything covered in black/with scorched paint but tend, fortuantely not to lead to much beyond a bad scare for passengers and possible imjury during train evacuation.

 

Strangely the only train fire I have ever had to 'fight' was an underframe fire on an SR demu - and as it turned out it was just as well the local vounteer Fire Brigade wasn't on strike with their full-time colleagues. But with the help of Kernow/Bachmann you'll soon be able to reproduce that and you even substitute a Green Goddess as a 'strike-breaking' fire engine in attendance.

Wasn't there a great fuss at the time because the vehicles were left in their burnt-out condition, visible from passing trains, for some time afterwards? More recently, when there's been any sort of incident involving locos or passenger stock, the vehicles have been tarpaulined over until they could be removed.

There have been two such incidents subsequently involving sleeper trains on mainland Europe, attributable to similar causes (blankets left over heaters, wasn't it, Mike?)- both involved considerable loss of life.

The only fatality connected to a fire on Mk3 stock that I can think of is one where a power car fuel tank ruptured and caught fire, somewhere near Reading. A passenger panicked, opened a door, and leapt out in front of another train.

[The Stationmaster]

Wasn't there a great fuss at the time because the vehicles were left in their burnt-out condition, visible from passing trains, for some time afterwards? More recently, when there's been any sort of incident involving locos or passenger stock, the vehicles have been tarpaulined over until they could be removed.

 

Only like that for a day or two Brian - first they were dumped on the upside at Taunton, mainly for initial forensic action and not much else. Then they were shunted over to the downside and into the old Lifting Shop where they stood for weeks being thoroughly cleared out by the BTP. I think one subsequently finished up outside the Lifting Shop and that might have led to moans.

 

There have been two such incidents subsequently involving sleeper trains on mainland Europe, attributable to similar causes (blankets left over heaters, wasn't it, Mike?)- both involved considerable loss of life.

 

The official Inquiry conclusion was that a Linen Bag had been left adjacent to a vestibule heater which cause a smouldering burn to start and that passing through Whiteball Tunnel caused that to turn into a fire which then spread. That was a conclusion very much driven by a Fire Service senior officer although I must admit I have always been sceptical about it as it wasn't anything like the first time a Linen Bag had been left like that. But I'm no fire expert and I only know what I saw - that the damage was at its greatest in the centre of that particular vehicle and that the compartment wall next to the alleged seat of the fire was intact because some days after the fire I had to go into that compartment to recover an item of the young lady occupant's property (slightly outwith the normal property procedures and done in order to avoid somebody facing the divorce court - well that was the bloke's story, but both a BTP Sergeant and I reckoned the diamond in the ring I 'recovered' was worth a good thousand quid; left me wondering how much he spent on his wife if that was what he spent on 'a friend' ).

 

The only fatality connected to a fire on Mk3 stock that I can think of is one where a power car fuel tank ruptured and caught fire, somewhere near Reading. A passenger panicked, opened a door, and leapt out in front of another train.

 

That was the Maidenhead one (the second of the two I referred to - the first was at Scours Lane, Reading) and a male passenger panicked and, instead of doing what he had been told to do, climbed out of a door on the offside and duly had a personal interface with an HST going past on the Up Main, as that line had not by then been closed.

[Bob Reid]

The only fire involving Mark 3 stock we had on the Scottish Region was on an E&G set at Cadder August 1983. Concluded to be caused by a discarded cigarette butt, both adjacent ends of TSOs 12025 & 12029 were extensively damaged in the ensuing fire. Spread of the fire was assisted by the foam gangway units (which were already subject to a modification because they were prone to getting damaged, being damp! and having moss growing on them.... Needless to say the modification programme was somewhat accelerated after that.

 

Back to the OPs question - you could realistically model the scene in the aftermath, if you just simulated the tarpaulins over the (allegedly) fire damaged end and had the vehicle/ssitting in a siding - therefore not having to ruin a good Mark 3, and anyone viewing it can make up their own mind if it's fire or heavy collision damage. All of ours were fairly quickly tarpaulined over as the (naturally) the GMs were deeply concerned that we shouldn't be advertising where things went wrong.

 

For more details of the incident at Cadder (including a photo taken mid-fire by one of the passengers) see http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Cadder1983.pdf

[cromptonnut]

Please don't think for one minute I was downplaying the seriousness or unpleasantness of the Taunton Sleeper Fire - I was merely responding with a link relating to the original question. Perhaps "inspiration" wasn't the best of terms to use, and I apologise if I offended anyone.

[Oldddudders]

Please don't think for one minute I was downplaying the seriousness or unpleasantness of the Taunton Sleeper Fire - I was merely responding with a link relating to the original question. Perhaps "inspiration" wasn't the best of terms to use, and I apologise if I offended anyone.

Sorry, I was implying that the report was grisly, not your choosing to link to it, which I believe was right! I also think the OP's idea is a good and original one - until you look into the detail of how it would pan out, and then it doesn't quite work, sadly. Bob 65B's idea of the tarp and imagination is a great alternative - without beggaring a good piece of rolling stock - but probably misses the operational interest of that detaching move.

[Dan Griffin]

there is a set of photographs, in either stanley halls, danger signals book, or railway disater book of mk3 sleepers, in blue and grey that had been on fire on the main line. so if its a sleeper its prototypical!

[Dave777]

Fantastic response, people - excellent stuff!

 

Yes, I had seen pictures before of that Mk I sleeper fire (somewhere on one of the links I have here there's some other photos of it and some more words, but 15 mins clicking around has failed to find it annoyingly), but it was actually the last photo on this link here that kicked off the idea (and yeah, I know it's a Mk II!):

 

http://www.2d53.co.u...jcn/freight.htm

 

The caption doesn't say why that coach was removed, and there's nothing obviously wrong with it that can be seen in the photo, so I was trying to think of something that would be obvious for it to be removed, hence the thought of some fire damage. Looks like I may be onto a non-starter there though, unless I employ a dollop of modeller's licence.

 

You raised some good points about a fire onboard a passenger service Ian - would the same sort of procedure occur if the incident had happened in the movement of some empty coaching stock? Could that be a way of modelling it?

 

 

Taupaulin idea might be a good alternative though, I'll keep that in mind.

[Oldddudders]

You raised some good points about a fire onboard a passenger service Ian - would the same sort of procedure occur if the incident had happened in the movement of some empty coaching stock? Could that be a way of modelling it?

Any sort of fire tends to get the emergency services involved - people nearby dial 999, that sort of thing - but the need to identify the extent of damage to vital systems, and thus the safety of the vehicle and those it is attached to, probably means it would not be very different. Unlike a car, where we drive onto the hard shoulder, and everyone drives slowly past gongoozling to see what all the smoke is about, the railway comes to an inevitable halt, and traincrew are not paid enough, nor given the training, to enable instant judgement on all the technical issues. Just imagine if they decided that the fire was now out, off they go, it breaks out again - and this time the whole train goes up, also setting fire to the packed passenger train passing on the opposing line.....

[andyman7]

It's not a fire, but I remember after the Bushey derailment in 1980, the damaged Mk3s were dumped in the sidings between the WCML up fast and the DC lines on the approach to Watford Junction. No-one was injured in the derailment but the Mk3s bore various scars including windows missing and bodyside dents. As far as I can recall they were there for around 6 months.

[ECML180]

That was the Maidenhead one (the second of the two I referred to - the first was at Scours Lane, Reading) and a male passenger panicked and, instead of doing what he had been told to do, climbed out of a door on the offside and duly had a personal interface with an HST going past on the Up Main, as that line had not by then been closed.

 

 

Any more information on that one available?

[Edwin_m]

As well as Maidenhead there is the obvious example of Ladbroke Grove, but I don't think it would be particularly good taste to model something like that.

 

Accident report for Maidenhead here.

[Dave777]

Okay, many thanks for all the info, folks - I think I might go for accident damage or a missing door instead then. Seems more likely.

[87023Velocity]

There have been small fires in the air conditioning module on mk3's in the past, which is mounted in the underframe. The fire brigade were usually called out, although damage to the vehicle bodyside was limited to black smoke marks rather than severe heat damage i.e damaged flaking paint etc.

 

Simon

 

 

[Mel_H]

On 13/04/2010 at 17:56, Bob Reid said:

The only fire involving Mark 3 stock we had on the Scottish Region was on an E&G set at Cadder August 1983. Concluded to be caused by a discarded cigarette butt, both adjacent ends of TSOs 12025 & 12029 were extensively damaged in the ensuing fire. Spread of the fire was assisted by the foam gangway units (which were already subject to a modification because they were prone to getting damaged, being damp! and having moss growing on them.... Needless to say the modification programme was somewhat accelerated after that.

 

Back to the OPs question - you could realistically model the scene in the aftermath, if you just simulated the tarpaulins over the (allegedly) fire damaged end and had the vehicle/ssitting in a siding - therefore not having to ruin a good Mark 3, and anyone viewing it can make up their own mind if it's fire or heavy collision damage. All of ours were fairly quickly tarpaulined over as the (naturally) the GMs were deeply concerned that we shouldn't be advertising where things went wrong.

 

For more details of the incident at Cadder (including a photo taken mid-fire by one of the passengers) see http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Cadder1983.pdf

 

This is very interesting; I recall going around Glasgow Works sometime afterwards where there was a burnt-out Mk3 in one of the sheds. I took a photo (not very good), and recall that it was by then rusty. I assumed it was vandalism, but had always curious what it was - and now I have the answer!

 

[Steven B]

I wouldn't worry about modelling a fire damaged coach - if you want to model something fire damaged then a brake van is much more commonly seen in ashes.

 

If you're just wanting to shunt a coach from a rake of Mk3s then simply pretend it's got a brake failure or something else that's hard to see. Alternatively, assuming a loco-hauled rake then add a couple of parcels vans, or Motorail GUV which can be added or removed as required. Parcels vans could be transferred to another train service to get to their final destination.

 

Steven B.