A sratch builders guide to Semaphore signal construction

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I have just picked up a copy of this book, as we expect from Wild Swan it's rather good covering most scales and regions.

 

David

[Coombe Barton]

Price? Availability? ISBN? How can I get my hands on one? PLEEEEEEEASE!

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Price is £19.95

ISBN 978 1 905184 68 2

 

Can be brought direct from Wild Swan or via book dealers, Bill Hudson, Kevin Robertson British Railway Books etc

 

Other than old phototype photos the book is in full colour.

 

David

[gwrrob]

Peter Quibbs work is very inspiring.He can scratchbuild better than I could ever do with a kit! A signalling genius.

[-missy-]

Hello David

 

Is there any 2mm stuff in the book? I love signals but I dont know how relavent it will be to me.

 

Missy

[Horsetan]

In time this book will probably also filter through to Amazon.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Hello David

 

Is there any 2mm stuff in the book? I love signals but I dont know how relavent it will be to me.

 

Missy

 

There is no 2mm content but don't let that put you off there there plenty of drawings and protototype photos that are of use what ever scale you model in, I would think if you just model one signal then you will need this book.

 

David

[Guest Max Stafford]

Thanks David, I think this one will be joining my library!

 

Dave.

[Horsetan]

Finally got hold of a copy in the last few days.

 

Quite idiosyncratic, I thought. Started strongly (I really liked the explanation on how to make your own lattice posts without ever going near an etching), then tailed off a bit near the end. The section on drive rods, straps and spindles is excellent, as is the one on brackets. Finials also get a good going-over.

 

However, those who want to know how to put together a replica SR rail-built post are going to be a bit disappointed, for example - there is a photo of the author's own effort early on, but he doesn't really go into his construction method.

 

The book certainly knows how to tease and tantalise but, if you are a non-GW / LSW follower, you effectively get referred back to your Line Society for more information. One chapter looked to me as though it would be a full-blown explanation on how to actually make your own GW route indicator, but then didn't go all the way. There were some prototype photos (Yeovil Pen Mill), plus a photo or two of the Churston example that was built for Trevor Potts' famous EM layout of that name, and that was all.

 

To make better sense of it, read it in conjunction with Mick Nicholson's work on building semaphore signals (Challenger Press), and then you will be closer to the complete treatise on how to really go to town on your signalling.

 

 

Just my two Euros' worth.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Having seen Peter Squibb's work in MRJ, I looked forward to this book with great anticipation but I have found it rather dissappointing. Perhaps my expectectations were too high.

 

There is somewhat less emphasis on actually making model signals than I expected and while there are many excellent detailed photos of the real thing, the emphasis is very strongly on the GWR and LSWR, as Horsetan has pointed out. I am about to embark on the plans for "signalling" a layout and I already have various publications on the LNWR describing prototype signals, etc. together with Mick Nicholson's book. Regrettably Peter Squibb's book hasn't really added to my knowledge for the task ahead as much as I had hoped.

 

Accurate modelling has to mix a knowledge of the real thing with appropriate modelling skills/techniques. Unlike other excellent books from Wild Swan - such as those by Iain Rice and Barry Norman, I don't think the mix in this publication is so well balanced.

[Horsetan]

It's a bit like the build-up of the roar of the fans as their team gets near the opposing goal, followed by a palpable groan of disappointment as the ball goes off-target.

[The Stationmaster]

I shall probably buy it when I get near to one on sale but I understand from what I have been told - and various extracts that I have seen - that a lot of the prototype information (and definitely some of the dating of changes) is either very poorly explained or incorrect.

 

Looks like I might have to delve out and dust down the 100,000 or so words and several hundred specially taken photos (to illustrate the words) I knocked together some years ago and try that in the marketplace perhaps? From what I have seen over the years signalling seems to 'frighten' (is that too strong a word?) modellers in two ways - firstly actually understanding it (i.e what signals are for, where they should be put, and how they should be worked) and secondly making and planting them (working or not).

 

The second area has been tackled by several authors and Mick Nicholson is undubtedly the one to study on the subject although I understand this new book is also helpful and well worth studying in that respect. But the first area seems to have been rarely effectively tackled in a single volume. There is some good stuff about dealing with bits of it I think, but nothing at all comprehensive and certainly nothing which tries to relate it to, for example, such things as the selective compression needed on many layouts or the way in which signalling can be used, in simple ways, to give a layout a feeling of place or era just as distinctive as that offered by motive power or railway related structures.

 

On the other hand perhaps I shouldn't be hi-jacking a thread on RMWeb in order to give one of my hobby horses a canter .

[beast66606]

On the other hand perhaps I shouldn't be hi-jacking a thread on RMWeb in order to give one of my hobby horses a canter

 

a bit of cantering does us all good

 

And to prove it - I can't understand why people who are members of forums where there is obviously a depth of knowledge on the subject seem afraid to ask ...

[The Stationmaster]

Well I bought a copy at Railex and have now reasonably thoroughly made my way through it.

 

I think you need to start with the title and not look for anything beyond it. Peter Squibb makes some magnificent signals and this book goes a long way to explain how he does it (although in a couple of places the explanation falls a bit short or is rather confused). But it is, not unexpectedly, very heavily GWR in nature with only a few steps out of that fold although obviously construction techniques are widely applicable.

 

But alas the book falls down in several areas and it appears to have suffered from lack of careful editing and checking. Some of the captions to prototype pics are downright wrong and clearly should have been much more carefully researched although the stuff there to illustrate signal constructional detail is very good. This is a shame as there is quite a good range of pictures covering the Grouped companies.

 

The biggest shortcoming lies beyond the area covered by the book's title as where it gets into matters of signal operation and 'signalling' (i.e the purpose and application of particular types of signal) there are several confusions and, regrettably, a number of errors of fact.

 

In summary then in my view (and albeit very limited experience in this particular aspect) it is good at what it says on the cover - it is a guide to semaphore signal construction.

 

But if you want to understand signalling and know what sort of signals to use, where to put them, and how to operate them for train working etc purposes -even on the GWR - then it doesn't set out to do that and where it does touch on that area it is not really of much help (and in one or two instances could mislead the uninitiated).

[Coombe Barton]

But if you want to understand signalling and know what sort of signals to use, where to put them, and how to operate them for train working etc purposes -even on the GWR - then it doesn't set out to do that and where it does touch on that area it is not really of much help (and in one or two instances could mislead the uninitiated).

So are you setting yourself up for writing "Understanding signalling - for the modleller" ??

[Mucky Duck]

…I can't understand why people who are members of forums where there is obviously a depth of knowledge on the subject seem afraid to ask ...

 

Fear of ridicule. I'm speaking for myself … being impatient and wanting a layout to practice and hone my modelling skills,

I planned and layed the track with little knowledge of prototype operation. Now to go and ask an expert to help with signalling

what could very well be operationally unfeasible is a bit daunting.

 

I will be asking though… one day!

[The Stationmaster]

So are you setting yourself up for writing "Understanding signalling - for the modleller" ??

 

 

Is there a market?

[The Stationmaster]

Fear of ridicule. I'm speaking for myself … being impatient and wanting a layout to practice and hone my modelling skills,

I planned and layed the track with little knowledge of prototype operation. Now to go and ask an expert to help with signalling

what could very well be operationally unfeasible is a bit daunting.

 

I will be asking though… one day!

 

That is probably the hardest part - the asking.

 

It is infinitely easier, depending on what you are modelling of course, to 'validate' a track layout against signalling as you plan it. But then the other side of the coin is that often the real railway had to do what it could in the space available and then signal it, which is what sometimes makes things very interesting B) .

 

The main thing tho' is to not to be afraid to ask because, as I said, I suspect that is the hardest part.

[Coombe Barton]

So are you setting yourself up for writing "Understanding signalling - for the modleller" ??

 

Is there a market?

 

Or maybe a proactive "here's a station plan and this is what the propotype signalling was all about". Following your tutelage on here I can now make reasonable assumptions of the purpose of any signal. You've helped me with Coombe Barton (now just waiting for the S4 Soc lever frames) to make a start.

 

I can now take, say Moretonhampstead, Kingsbridge, Helston, in fact most of the plans in the Clark and Karau books on the GW to come to an understanding. I also look for Signal Box Diagrams out of interest.

 

Market? Maybe. Money? Not much, probably.

 

Up to you, really.

[micknich2003]

Peter's signals are out of this world, exquisite in fact but unfortunately his prototype facts are in a few places wrong.

Here's a few observations:

p1 Caption is wrong, signal with a ring does not equate to a shunting signal or ground disc, it's a running signal.

p.5 British practise does not use "Speed Signalling" only "Route Signalling".

p.5 (semaphore) signals are not required at a level crossing, the red target board on the gate and the red light by night are Stop signals.

p6 It is not the practice to maintain two stop signals plus braking distance between successive trains.

p7 level crossing gates need not be shut across the road to allow a train to approach.

p7 detection does not stop a signal lever being moved

p79 somersault arm in South Wales - two white stripes went out at the grouping, the pic is post 1948 as witness the steel mineral wagons seen in the background.

p60 the LMS, if not the other company's were using plain arms from c1936.

p86 the double disc is LMS pattern and there were never any SR discs at Kensington.

 

quote name='The Stationmaster' date='06 June 2010 - 13:01 ' timestamp='1275822089' post='154708']

Well I bought a copy at Railex and have now reasonably thoroughly made my way through it.

 

I think you need to start with the title and not look for anything beyond it. Peter Squibb makes some magnificent signals and this book goes a long way to explain how he does it (although in a couple of places the explanation falls a bit short or is rather confused). But it is, not unexpectedly, very heavily GWR in nature with only a few steps out of that fold although obviously construction techniques are widely applicable.

 

But alas the book falls down in several areas and it appears to have suffered from lack of careful editing and checking. Some of the captions to prototype pics are downright wrong and clearly should have been much more carefully researched although the stuff there to illustrate signal constructional detail is very good. This is a shame as there is quite a good range of pictures covering the Grouped companies.

 

The biggest shortcoming lies beyond the area covered by the book's title as where it gets into matters of signal operation and 'signalling' (i.e the purpose and application of particular types of signal) there are several confusions and, regrettably, a number of errors of fact.

 

In summary then in my view (and albeit very limited experience in this particular aspect) it is good at what it says on the cover - it is a guide to semaphore signal construction.

 

But if you want to understand signalling and know what sort of signals to use, where to put them, and how to operate them for train working etc purposes -even on the GWR - then it doesn't set out to do that and where it does touch on that area it is not really of much help (and in one or two instances could mislead the uninitiated).

[Jan]

The biggest shortcoming lies beyond the area covered by the book's title as where it gets into matters of signal operation and 'signalling' (i.e the purpose and application of particular types of signal) there are several confusions and, regrettably, a number of errors of fact.

 

In summary then in my view (and albeit very limited experience in this particular aspect) it is good at what it says on the cover - it is a guide to semaphore signal construction.

 

But if you want to understand signalling and know what sort of signals to use, where to put them, and how to operate them for train working etc purposes -even on the GWR - then it doesn't set out to do that and where it does touch on that area it is not really of much help (and in one or two instances could mislead the uninitiated).

 

Personally, I thought this little nugget was a good entry level into the dark art. I know it has the "S" word on the cover, but it's a good read for anyone looking for initiation.

 

Cheers

 

Jan

[The Stationmaster]

Personally, I thought this little nugget was a good entry level into the dark art. I know it has the "S" word on the cover, but it's a good read for anyone looking for initiation.

 

Cheers

 

Jan

 

 

One I tend to treat with some caution alas - the author is excellent on early block instruments but strangely under-researched on a lot of operational matters, for example he doesn't even correctly define a subsidiary signal and doesn't really properly relate signalling to block working (and hence to signal provision and siting). But lots of interesting (and sometimes very useful) pictures tho', albeit in a small format.

 

Without a doubt the best book for getting to grips with the basics plus a good background on historical development is 'British Railway Signalling' by Geoffrey Kichenside and Alan Williams published by Ian Allan but long out of print. It ran through at least 4 editions, being gradually updated to reflect changes out on the ground, so comes with a variety of ISBN numbers, and can be found on the secondhand etc market. And - definitely for the early editions but I'm not so sure about the later ones - the contents were very carefully checked by professionals in the signalling and operating fields before publication.

 

Another good one, although perhaps a bit lighter on explanation but good on showing stuff, is 'Modern Signalling Handbook' by Stanley Hall also published by Ian Allan (again in several editions and in many respects the real successor to 'British Railway Signalling' although taking a rather different approach and majoring on modern signalling; it too can be found on the secondhand market. This also has a professional and knowledgeable background as Stan was at one time Signalling Officer at the BRB.

 

But it should be noted that neither of these books (nor the Vanns book) do much to relate signalling to the modelling world and the constraints imposed by compression of distance or other things which arise from modelling such as the risk of 'over signalling' (let alone 'under signalling' )

[Horsetan]

.....best book for getting to grips with the basics plus a good background on historical development is 'British Railway Signalling' by Geoffrey Kichenside and Alan Williams published by Ian Allan but long out of print. It ran through at least 4 editions, being gradually updated to reflect changes out on the ground, so comes with a variety of ISBN numbers, and can be found on the secondhand etc market. And - definitely for the early editions but I'm not so sure about the later ones - the contents were very carefully checked by professionals in the signalling and operating fields before publication.....

 

Current version here

[The Stationmaster]

No, that one is something different and does not have the same provenance.

[Jan]

No, that one is something different and does not have the same provenance.

 

 

This one?

 

 

Cheers

 

Jan