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Hornby - New tooling - Large Prairie


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3 hours ago, No Decorum said:

The gloss did rescue the King and they looked magnificent. Having said that, I don’t think I like the idea of all my models being gloss.

I don't like the idea of any of my models being gloss and routinely apply matt or at least satin varnish to any that are (mostly die cast road vehicles nowadays).  I have a theory, bourn out by observation but of course I might be seeing things differently to other people so my observations on the matter are not objectively validated, that even shiny objects like cars look fairly flat in finish from any distance, say about 20 feet, more so on dull days.  Brand new ones, like ex-works or museum locomotives, gleam, but a few day's uses takes the edge off that!  This happened even to Kings, which were always clean in service.

 

I prefer a satin semi-matt finish for clean locos and passenger stock, and light the layout to simulate cloudy conditions with the light diffused as much as possible and attempt to eliminate shadows.  My lighting is led anglepoises from Maplin's; these have 3 level setting and can be switched between warm, cool, or mixed setting, so I can replicate the impression of different weather conditions, but the South Wales Valleys are notoriously wet and grey...  

 

A gloss finish will have the effect of making the colour look darker, while a weathered loco on a dry day will look several levels lighter, even in similar lighting conditions.  Black, which the majority of my locos are, is a particularly hard colour to achieve; the trick is in the finish, not the colour.  Gloss black is very difficult to achieve, often appearing a dark blue, as photographers of locos on heritage railways well know, and weathered black is really grey in appearance, as it was in reality on dirty locos.

 

A useful trick with black liveried steam locos is to give the smokebox a slightly different finish on some of them.  Smokeboxes, especially the doors, got very hot in service and shed repaintings were common, with a finish noticeably flatter or shinier than the rest of the loco.

Edited by The Johnster
Bloody autocorrect...
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No doubt contradicting my own arguments but this photo I took at Hereford station on the 23rd July shows 2 locos painted (I believe) the same green about 3 years apart. Being preserved these locos will of course get nothing like the weathering in service locos would have received back in the day. 

9055720B-9F79-4EF3-ADCC-81253D825D73.jpeg

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And a reflection on online images....Take a look if you will at the images Hattons ( their own ) have recently displayed on their website of this Prairie. Confusing or what ?  No wonder Little Dan opted out of a similar venture. Maybe the paint is camera shy ? 

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7 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

No doubt contradicting my own arguments but this photo I took at Hereford station on the 23rd July shows 2 locos painted (I believe) the same green about 3 years apart. Being preserved these locos will of course get nothing like the weathering in service locos would have received back in the day. 

9055720B-9F79-4EF3-ADCC-81253D825D73.jpeg

Which of the two class 7 machines do viewers prefer?

 

(Send your answers to me on the back of a £20 note:yes:)

Edited by melmerby
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I always assumed all manufacturers tested locos before leaving the factory, or has this one by-passed quality control, or has it been shaken up in transit? Apart from the driving wheel off, there was no other problem elsewhere, and the red box was in perfect condition.

     The good news is I re-mounted the wheel, and quartered it by eye within a few minutes, it seemed to slide back on to the splined axle quite easily, perhaps not as tight as previous Hornby locos? This was supposed to be just a quick test, to make sure everything worked correctly, i'm pleased to report that with six wheels it ran beautifully, so all is now well, no need to return to vendor. Hornby are still sticking to their 14.3mm back-to-back measurement, perhaps due to their train set track, whereas 14.5mm has been the BRMSB standard for over half-a-century, indeed these days for OO finescale track 14.7 or even 14.8mm is desirable, 14.7 is better for Hornby due to their flanges. I will re-gauge this loco to 14.7, and with spacing washers, so the wheels will be coming off again at a later date.

      Regarding the colour debate, don't worry, they weren't all the same, even locos fresh from Swindon, Wolverhampton, Worcester or Caerphilly works repair, would appear in different shades, with variations in the lining. I'm happy with the Hornby shade, if all your layout locos were the same shade, that would look rather odd?

My one gripe with Hornby's liveries, is that they print the lining shiny, with the body colour dull. No problem, easily fixed with your choice of matt, satin or semi-gloss varnish, then all blends in nicely.

                                                                                 Cheers, Brian.

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8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Brand new ones, like ex-works or museum locomotives, gleam, but a few day's uses takes the edge off that!  This happened even to Kings, which were always clean in service.

I remember taking a picture of 46233 from a station staircase when it was on its first or second trip after overhaul. The top of the boiler was very dirty.

 

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

so I can replicate the impression of different weather conditions, but the South Wales Valleys are notoriously wet and grey...

In the area of my layout the sky was black with smoke by day and red with the furnace glow on the smoke by night. Locos more than two weeks out of works were usually in unlined grot livery.

 

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A useful trick with black liveried steam locos is to give the smokebox a slightly different finish on some of them.  Smokeboxes, especially the doors, got very hot in service and shed repaintings were common, with a finish noticeably flatter or shinier than the rest of the loco.

Around Saltley any metal rotted very quickly if not well painted. Saltley shed liked to paint their smokeboxes in something which would stay in place despite the heat and they often looked very shiny. I think they used a home-made coating most of the ingredients for which came from the tar deposits in the gas works. This was a typical Saltley finish

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrsalt983.htm

 

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10 minutes ago, Kirby Uncoupler said:

whereas 14.5mm has been the BRMSB standard for over half-a-century,

 

The BRMSB standard has been out-of-date for years, if not decades. And as I understand it, none of the manufacturers of RTR model railways ever adhered to it.

 

I seem to remember reading a critique of the BRMSB standards which mentioned that some of the figures were impossible and the standard was unworkable.

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Just in case this helps anybody....

 

I found my model of 4154 to generally be a fine runner but there was some slight hesitation on a Peco 3 way point and at one place when I had built a barrow crossing using old ERG sleepers (remember them!). I suspected pick up adjustment may be needed so removed the body.  I looked at the pickups and all looked in order so just for the heck of it I replaced the front pony truck and tried the chassis by itself and "voila" not a hiccup in sight. OK I thought put the body back on minus the screws, still no hesitation at all. Right put the screws back and yes, you guessed it I had a slight hesitation on the Peco 3 way point and at the barrow crossing...................

 

Of course I removed the screws again and all was fine. I know this is absolutely ridiculous but with no body holding screws the loco is immaculate and as soon as I even lightly turn the retaining screws it starts misbehaving. Since the loco rarely leaves the layout she is running now with no retaining screws and all is well. Maybe in a month or two I might try putting them back in...................

 

Honestly if this was April 1st I could understand it ................

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Presumably the offending screws are fouling on the barrow crossing and the 3-way turnout.  You can 'bodge' the attachment of body to chassis by using pound shop superglue (don't do this until the warranty is expired), which will hold it well enough for you to pick the loco up if necessary, but can easily be broken with a bit of leverage from an old screwdriver if you need to get inside for any reason.  You then have to clean the surplus superglue carefully off before re-applying it; not recommended as such but I have resorted to this in the past when screws have gone missing.

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10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Presumably the offending screws are fouling on the barrow crossing and the 3-way turnout.  


No they aren’t. The body fixing screws are nowhere near the track.

 

 @CaddyIf you want to try retaining the body screws with no damage a tiny bit of normal PVA glue can help. Smear a bit on the thread, tighten them to full stop, and then release by a quarter turn. Try the quarter turn release with the body before the glue stage! The tiny dab of PVA usually prevents any subsequent unthreading, and keeps the screw serviceable. which three way is it?

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12 hours ago, Caddy said:

Just in case this helps anybody....

 

I found my model of 4154 to generally be a fine runner but there was some slight hesitation on a Peco 3 way point and at one place when I had built a barrow crossing using old ERG sleepers (remember them!). I suspected pick up adjustment may be needed so removed the body.  I looked at the pickups and all looked in order so just for the heck of it I replaced the front pony truck and tried the chassis by itself and "voila" not a hiccup in sight. OK I thought put the body back on minus the screws, still no hesitation at all. Right put the screws back and yes, you guessed it I had a slight hesitation on the Peco 3 way point and at the barrow crossing...................

 

Of course I removed the screws again and all was fine. I know this is absolutely ridiculous but with no body holding screws the loco is immaculate and as soon as I even lightly turn the retaining screws it starts misbehaving. Since the loco rarely leaves the layout she is running now with no retaining screws and all is well. Maybe in a month or two I might try putting them back in...................

 

Honestly if this was April 1st I could understand it ................

Are the body retaining screws able to slightly flex the keeper plate which in turn is lessening the positive pressure of the pick ups against the rails? I haven't got this model so basing this on general experience rather than specific knowledge.

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2 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Are the body retaining screws able to slightly flex the keeper plate which in turn is lessening the positive pressure of the pick ups against the rails? I haven't got this model so basing this on general experience rather than specific knowledge.


On these, the body mounts don’t use or penetrate the keeper plate. The other element for @Caddy is does this fault occur on all three routes, and in which direction forward/reverse, and if the loco is turned 180 degrees does it still happen. A picture of the specific loco underneath front might give a clue too.

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12 hours ago, PMP said:


On these, the body mounts don’t use or penetrate the keeper plate. The other element for @Caddy is does this fault occur on all three routes, and in which direction forward/reverse, and if the loco is turned 180 degrees does it still happen. A picture of the specific loco underneath front might give a clue too.

It might also be altering the forces on the front pony pivot, which is a known trouble spot.

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On 15/09/2020 at 23:22, Kirby Uncoupler said:

I always assumed all manufacturers tested locos before leaving the factory,

No they dont. There are umpteen threads on here discussing quality control (or lack thereof) and that a certain level of returns is expected, although obviously each manufacturer will have their own approach.

Edited by Hal Nail
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On 15/09/2020 at 23:22, Kirby Uncoupler said:

I always assumed all manufacturers tested locos before leaving the factory, or has this one by-passed quality control, or has it been shaken up in transit? Apart from the driving wheel off, there was no other problem elsewhere, and the red box was in perfect condition.

 

 

Quality control is based on an certain acceptable level of non compliance and samples will taken during each stage of manufacture.

The cost of faulty item returns will be balanced against the level of inspection required to eliminate them.

If you want 100% inspection it will put the cost up. A lot!

 

It's all set out in international quality standards.

 

Only safety critical items are expected to be 100% compliant and have a level of inspection to suit. (And hence are expensive)

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Received my 4160 from Derails (good service) run it around the layout across 3 way and double slip points, both directions for at least one hour and all is well.  The running quality is very good and the finish is also very good.  It looks the part as I remember them.  One slight problem, dropping couplings, the push up bar sometimes catches on the vee when crossing points causing derailments, remove them and all is well, as I do anyway.  Good model and at current prices good value.  Just need to install sound to complete.

 

Mike

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Dropper bars on the coupling hooks can foul on things sometimes, often as a result of vertical play in the NEM mount, which is of course on a model like this part of the vertical play designed in to the pony and radial pivots.  I don't like removing the hooks as I am of the belief that both are necessary to establish reliable coupling, particularly on any layout that has changes of gradients, and prefer to to trim them by about 1.5mm and file the bottoms into a radiused curve.  The hook is now correctly weighted and counterbalanced and should clear anything it previously might have fouled on.  Be gentle with the filing; the bottom of the hook can be removed with a snips but the filing exerts sideway pressure and once the hook parts company with the hinge part it never goes back right.  

 

My method is to remove the coupling from the NEM dovetail carefully, supporting the 'waggler' beneath with a screwdriver blade or similar (it is designed for sideways play and is not strong in the vertical plane, and. the coupling is u/s if it breaks), put it upside down in a small vice, clamp, pliers, adjustable spanner, whatever is to hand, and clamp the top part of the hook, leaving the bar loop free.  The coupling is now secure to be filed or worked on with a dremel to shape it.  

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33 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Dropper bars on the coupling hooks can foul on things sometimes, often as a result of vertical play in the NEM mount, which is of course on a model like this part of the vertical play designed in to the pony and radial pivots. 

?

Vertical play in the pony pivot is nothing to do with it. There is hardly any play anyway. The pony wheels aren't going to go up and down.

It is just slop in the mounting which allows coupling droop, which can quite often be reduced sufficiently by a shim under the fishtail where it enters the pocket.

Edited by melmerby
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On 15/09/2020 at 23:22, Kirby Uncoupler said:

I always assumed all manufacturers tested locos before leaving the factory, or has this one by-passed quality control, or has it been shaken up in transit? Apart from the driving wheel off, there was no other problem elsewhere, and the red box was in perfect condition.

     The good news is I re-mounted the wheel, and quartered it by eye within a few minutes, it seemed to slide back on to the splined axle quite easily, perhaps not as tight as previous Hornby locos? This was supposed to be just a quick test, to make sure everything worked correctly, i'm pleased to report that with six wheels it ran beautifully, so all is now well, no need to return to vendor. Hornby are still sticking to their 14.3mm back-to-back measurement, perhaps due to their train set track, whereas 14.5mm has been the BRMSB standard for over half-a-century, indeed these days for OO finescale track 14.7 or even 14.8mm is desirable, 14.7 is better for Hornby due to their flanges. I will re-gauge this loco to 14.7, and with spacing washers, so the wheels will be coming off again at a later date.

      Regarding the colour debate, don't worry, they weren't all the same, even locos fresh from Swindon, Wolverhampton, Worcester or Caerphilly works repair, would appear in different shades, with variations in the lining. I'm happy with the Hornby shade, if all your layout locos were the same shade, that would look rather odd?

My one gripe with Hornby's liveries, is that they print the lining shiny, with the body colour dull. No problem, easily fixed with your choice of matt, satin or semi-gloss varnish, then all blends in nicely.

                                                                                 Cheers, Brian.


Modern QC depends on testing raw materials and processes do that the end product should turn out right . I’m afraid the days that every loco is tested before packing is over , which explains a lot ! 

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1 hour ago, Legend said:


Modern QC depends on testing raw materials and processes do that the end product should turn out right . I’m afraid the days that every loco is tested before packing is over , which explains a lot ! 

QC has for a very long time been based on making sure the manufacturing process is correct, which should ensure the finished product meets an acceptable standard.

When I was first involved with QC it was very much random sample testing of the end product but that was 1960s/70s by the '80s it was all about ensuring the manufacturing company's quality assurance system was working, to ensure that the end product met the specification.

As I said before 100% testing of finished products under either regime was rare. It was normal to check a random sample of finished products and that gives you a statistically calculated figure of the actual quality level.

All this is set down in ISO/EN/BS specifications

100% inspections were usually reserved just for safety products.

 

Many of the model railway retailers will do their own checks to try and stop a faulty loco being sent out, generally itworks but occasionally a dud will get through the net.

Edited by melmerby
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1 hour ago, Legend said:

I’m afraid the days that every loco is tested before packing is over

 

I happen to know that every Bachmann and Farish loco is inspected and bench tested before being packed.

 

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1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

I happen to know that every Bachmann and Farish loco is inspected and bench tested before being packed.

 

Every single one? That’s impressive quality control from them. A shame Hornby doesn’t follow the same line. 

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