89001 possibly returning to service

[Gary H]

I wouldn't bet on that if I were you, LNER has suspended the introduction of the IET's indefinitely on the ECML due to a number of factors that I cannot divulge on here but have been or will be in the railway press soon enough.

One of the issues is signalling interference. 

It's not exactly a secret either that I know of. 

[Guest teacupteacup]

[rodent279]

I was checking out some trains from Birmingham to London the other day. A Pendo is generally 5 - 6 minutes faster than the original electric service from 1967 when it was timed to be capable of doing with a Class 81/85 and 12 vac braked Mk1s. The WMT service via Northampton is about the same timings as when it was a 310 unit, which were limited to 75mph due to problems if they were coupled to a 304.

I think 310's were limited to 75 because the disc brakes were not as big as on the later 312's.

[rodent279]

The offending cables on a GWR 800:-

 

 

 

Regarding reviving the 89-aren't there a load of 90's soon to be looking for work in Anglia? Are there sufficient spare HST trailers and power cars to make up a couple of class 90+DVT rakes? I know they're not 125mph capable, but could surely be a fill in on Leeds/York semi-fasts?

Edited January 3, 2019 by rodent279

[black and decker boy]

Regarding reviving the 89-aren't there a load of 90's soon to be looking for work in Anglia? Are there sufficient spare HST trailers and power cars to make up a couple of class 90+DVT rakes? I know they're not 125mph capable, but could surely be a fill in on Leeds/York semi-fasts?

Why overcomplicate things and end up with a slower train whilst incurring significant R&D / conversion costs?

 

Just run the spare HSTs. No crew / fitter training needed. 125mph and fully route cleared.

 

IETs will enter service this year. Mk4 rakes will go off Lease this year.

[Zomboid]

I think one thing that IET introduction should teach us is that we shouldn't rely too heavily on expected delivery dates of a new design of train when planning a cascade. Until Anglia have their new trains in service, it would be unadvisable to make big, time sensitive plans for their 90 & mk3 sets.

[jim.snowdon]

I think one thing that IET introduction should teach us is that we shouldn't rely too heavily on expected delivery dates of a new design of train when planning a cascade. Until Anglia have their new trains in service, it would be unadvisable to make big, time sensitive plans for their 90 & mk3 sets.

Two things it really ought to teach us, and the DfT in particular, is that you cannot go buying trains to run on a third party 's railway without understanding the interfaces, and that the railway itself doesn't fully understand its own interfaces, at least not enough to be able to specify them to an train manufacturer well enough to allow an electric train to run on its system more or less first time.

 

Jim

[Zomboid]

I think there are many, many lessons the IET project can teach us.

 

Most of which we already knew about, more or less.

 

It'll be interesting to see how things like 397 introduction go, given that there's limited meddling from the DfT in the specification of those. There's already what looks like some rookie mistakes been made on the Anglia Stadlers.

[caradoc]

But everything carries a risk, every single thing. Where do you draw the line? Every single trains journey carries a risk of ending in disaster, as does every single flight and car journey. The risk is quite low, but is non zero. So we accept the risk and carry on. I’m going to walk to the shop to buy milk. There is a non zero chance I’ll be struck by a car and killed. But the risk is low. The risk of some numpty climbing the end of a railway carriage and getting electrocuted is low. The Pendos have been running for 15+ years and only one person has done it. And also personal responsibility comes into play. It’s not like the train can spontaneously make you be on the roof, you must make a conscious decision to climb up, ignoring posted warning notices. If the trains posed a high risk they would undoubtedly be withdrawn for checks and modifications, but a line must be drawn somewhere lest we all cower in our homes never going out. And yes commercial considerations such as shutting all long distance WCML and GWML services do come into play.

 

Absolutely nightstar.train; Compare the safety risk on railways compared to roads. A means of reducing the still-horrific daily toll of death and injury on the latter would be to impose an immediate blanket 20mph speed limit on every mile of road in the country; Yes it would of coiurse cause commercial and industrial chaos but safety would be all but guaranteed. Or, to take an example where road and rail intersect, restrict the height of every road vehicle in the UK to say 12 feet, so that bridge bashes by lorries would be greatly reduced. But of course neither of these things will ever happen. There has to be a balance somewhere.

[rodent279]

If ever there was an argument against renationalisation, the IET/Thameslink 2000 debacle is surely it?

[woodenhead]

Getting a bit off topic, but presumably because there is a demand for a through train between points north of Edinburgh and points south. Nothing suppresses demand quite as effectively as making passengers change trains when previously they didn't have to.

May also be political - there are also Cross Country services that penetrate far into Scotland - if all the England to Scotland services terminated at Glasgow and Edinburgh it would add weight to a sense of separation between the two countries.

 

I do wonder in these days of plane travel how many people travel between the north of Scotland and London by rail (other than on the sleeper), but of course it may really be travelling between the north of England and the north of Scotland.

[rodent279]

Why overcomplicate things and end up with a slower train whilst incurring significant R&D / conversion costs?

 

Just run the spare HSTs. No crew / fitter training needed. 125mph and fully route cleared.

 

IETs will enter service this year. Mk4 rakes will go off Lease this year.

Yes, point taken. Anyway, I guess you'd have to re-invent the HST-DVT-class 90 arrangement now, since it hasn't been used for what, 25 yrs?

[rodent279]

May also be political - there are also Cross Country services that penetrate far into Scotland - if all the England to Scotland services terminated at Glasgow and Edinburgh it would add weight to a sense of separation between the two countries.

 

I do wonder in these days of plane travel how many people travel between the north of Scotland and London by rail (other than on the sleeper), but of course it may really be travelling between the north of England and the north of Scotland.

Very few, in my experience. Living in Bristol, most people I know who go to Scotland do so by air. Personally I'll go by rail, but that's just me being bloody minded. But then I went from Bristol to Berlin by rail! (Which took a little over 13hrs. I don't think you can get from Bristol to Fort William in that time).

[caradoc]

Very few, in my experience. Living in Bristol, most people I know who go to Scotland do so by air. Personally I'll go by rail, but that's just me being bloody minded. But then I went from Bristol to Berlin by rail! (Which took a little over 13hrs. I don't think you can get from Bristol to Fort William in that time).

 

You set a challenge there rodent279 ! You actually can do Bristol-Ft William in less than 13 hours:

 

Bristol TM dep 1130

Birmingham New St arr 1256, dep 1315

Glasgow Central arr 1715

(walk or shuttle bus)

Glasgow Queen St dep 1823

Fort William arr 2209

 

Journey time 10hrs 39 mins !!

To be fair however that appears to be the one time of day the journey can be made that 'quickly'. at other times it is much slower.

 

My own experience is that the LNER Aberdeen trains are well loaded north of Edinburgh, although how many are actually travelling to or from London is another question. One thing is certain though, any suggestion of curtailing Anglo-Scottish services at Edinburgh would be met with fierce public, political and media opposition in Scotland (as has indeed already happened when XC were rumoured to be reducing their timetable north of Edinburgh).

[Reorte]

My own experience is that the LNER Aberdeen trains are well loaded north of Edinburgh, although how many are actually travelling to or from London is another question. One thing is certain though, any suggestion of curtailing Anglo-Scottish services at Edinburgh would be met with fierce public, political and media opposition in Scotland (as has indeed already happened when XC were rumoured to be reducing their timetable north of Edinburgh).

Not just London - how many through passengers are there from Newcastle for example? You could run different trains for those of course, but as well as the probably extra expense of that there's the question of track and station capacity.

[Reorte]

The offending cables on a GWR 800

Of the reasons for not having something easily climbed that some incredibly stupid person had become a cropper due to their own moronic actions being the deciding one leaves me shaking my head (as opposed to the railway having to deal with the aftermath of such people).

[Wild Boar Fell]

Going back to the Class 89's restoration/ overhaul, I note that the owners have gone to the trouble of fitting a replacement working TDM rack. May just be me, but seems like added expense and complexity if you didn't intend to use it...

 

For that reason I would think that the potential use with a DVT of either flavour does not seem so far fetched.

 

I may well be wrong however.

[rodent279]

Well I will say this-I'm sure it'd be in demand for tours, if nothing else.

[Zomboid]

How fast can the charter train carriages run? Between 89001 and 87002 there would be enough 110mph+ electric traction to allow things like the Milton Keynes to Carlisle circular (with kettle over Shap & the S&C) to be pathed at 110 for the electric sections, once they're both no longer needed for franchised trains.

 

No use of course if the carriages can only do 90...

[russ p]

Most mainline mk1s are 100mph

[rodent279]

I thought there was talk of mk3's being used for charters?

[newbryford]

I thought there was talk of mk3's being used for charters?

 

Jeremy Hosking has been on about getting a set for LSL.

[5944]

Going back to the Class 89's restoration/ overhaul, I note that the owners have gone to the trouble of fitting a replacement working TDM rack. May just be me, but seems like added expense and complexity if you didn't intend to use it...

 

For that reason I would think that the potential use with a DVT of either flavour does not seem so far fetched.

 

I may well be wrong however.

Perhaps it's linked in with other systems, which won't operate correctly without all the components and modules working and in situ?

[adb968008]

The overhaul of the class 89 is nothing new. Its been worked on for a few years now.

GBRF has been linked to it before.

 

Considering the owners have access to every AC electric class up until class 90, and that they chose the 89, rather than another 86/87 or even the 85, suggests they have a plan.

 

But the 89 is a powerful, versatile beast, if theres an economic enough case to restore and use it, why not ?

 

 

Whats happening to its source of funds though (86101/002), after the sleepers turn mk5’s ? - I recall the dire straights reported 5 years ago, when the only work they had was occasional icebreaking runs, and warming WCRC railtour stock at Carlilse.

[nightstar.train]

How fast can the charter train carriages run? Between 89001 and 87002 there would be enough 110mph+ electric traction to allow things like the Milton Keynes to Carlisle circular (with kettle over Shap & the S&C) to be pathed at 110 for the electric sections, once they're both no longer needed for franchised trains.

No use of course if the carriages can only do 90...

There was certainly talk of one of the charter outfits buying one or two rakes of Mk3s from Greater Anglia when they’re got rid of, and also an HST or two. Aimed more at ‘civilians’ who want a nice day out with good onboard catering, rather than rail enthusiasts who want to hang out windows to hear a particular engine. I think they talked of getting a 90 or 2 as well to haul them, and presumably DVTs. Think is they’ll slot into mainline stations and timings better as well. The A1 loco trust is also looking at a rake of Mk3s to provide a high class experience behind Tornado.