Repairs to Hornby Bulleid Pacific; wheels not rotating more than half turn.

[Mallard60022]

Before I post the rest of this I am stating clearly that I really appreciate most Hornby products, even those with a few warts and I support their attempts to deal with a very difficult market. I will buy their products if they suit me or I just like them and want them for my own pleasure and maybe that of a few friends and family. I have one of their latest Bulleid 59' coaches sitting hear next to me and it is brilliant. This is not me having a go at Hornby. This is me being a bit too old and clumsy to tackle something.

Thus, it is the seeming lack of a true Hornby in-house repairs at cost including labour charges service that I have found frustrating. I have had excellent customer service giving a reasonable level of advice, but when there was a serious problem, as the dreaded split gears on the driving axle of (in my case a Modified Bulleid Pacific) locomotives that I can not contemplate dealing with that I am a bit disappointed that nowt could be done; not even the suggestion of buying a replacement chassis.

Fortunately, after being told by the helpful CS person at Hornby that they were unable to deal with this particular fault and that the local Club (that they knew about), may be able to advise me of someone, I put a request on RMW and a trusted Webber, that I know from past encounters, is going to do the job for me. I have actually tackled the simpler Bulleid gears problem myself in the past, using spares from somewhere or another, but not this job that will involve wheel removal etc.

The loco is question would not be covered by a guarantee and as it was bought as a 'Lot' on line, from a well known Auction House that does Toy and M. Railway sales. It is as was described, Brand new and boxed (pristine) and DCC ready. I suspect it had been a privately owned display model or perhaps from a sadly closed shop as it did not appear to have even been opened. 34109 has probably been around for a few years?

Caveat emptor of course and I accept that. I also accept that I may well have caused the problem by not taking the loco apart and checking for solidified gunk in the gearbox area before I attempted to 'run It in' on the Rolling Road. Yes, I take full responsibility. Yes I could search out a full, working and even new DCC Ready chassis; I could also buy a Comet set of parts and motor/gearbox combo and build that, which I could, but it wld be lightweight and I may struggle with the DCC bits. Yes, I am probably a duffer, so I try to preempt some of the usual responses I may well get by owning up to all these things.

My question/point is that are Hornby missing a trick in not having some staff that could actually deal with some of these repairs or local modellers that they could contract in to do it for them as 'part of their service'? Maybe they could have a list of recommended repairers; I though they actually used to have those? Loads of Hornby customers are just train fans, or youngsters without access to modeller friends or family (as is my Godson in Kent, who live s just a mile or two from the Margate premises) and might appreciate a repair service?

What's the thinking about this question and if this is old hat just refer me to the previous debate and I'll delete this and leave you all in peace?

Phil

Edited February 1, 2020 by Mallard60022

[90rob]

21 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

... This is me being a bit too old and clumsy to tackle something.

Thus, it is the seeming lack of a true Hornby in-house repairs at cost including labour charges service that I have found frustrating. ..

 

Agree... I've got a Schools and a King Arthur sitting in the repair drawer, and I am sure they will never get done. It is for that reason that I no longer buy the larger Hornby locos.

[Ian Hargrave]

As a long term sufferer from split gear syndrome,you have my sympathy and full support on this issue.I have neither the skill or knowledge to do the “fiddly bits” let alone the nimbleness of fingers and eyesight.

 

For any repair that’s needed I have access to someone who can,so I’m fortunate and he has indeed provided many a skilled repair for me....including several of the above mentioned curse.The problem however doesn’t stop there.

Where....apart from Peter’s Spares....do you get the necessary parts ? Do Hornby stock them ?

 

This is a necessary and timely “cri de coeur”. It needs addressing in some way.

 

You might try contacting our resident Bulleid guru,Toboldlygo...aka James E. Mower.....for advice...your main man in rtr.S.R.

 

 

 

[Mallard60022]

I meant to say that I don't necessarily mean 'extra staff' at Hornby, just enabling some that probably already can to do it for the customer?

Thanks

Phil

[jwealleans]

There's clearly a need for this kind of service.  Peter's Spares have a full time repairer and the last time I spoke to one of their staff he had something like a 4 month backlog.  Tony Wright seems to have plenty of requests to his loco clinic at shows as well.

[DCB]

Getting a reasonable sum for the repair is probably the stumbling block. You can easily fiddle for hours to sort out these problems where a gear needs changing which means losing the quartering of the wheels.  I guess if people are prepared to fork out £50 for a split gear repair then there will be quite a few people interested, but I expect we would actually want it done for £10 plus Green Shield stamps.  Hornby obviously have a repair shop to cover customer's statutory rights, whether enthusiasts or the model shop who is their customer, but they need spare capacity to turn round items swiftly, the four months wait from Peter's spares if true is taking the "rise"

Keeping 2000s stock going is the challenge for 21st century modellers the way repainting and detailing was for 1960s modellers.  You should see my dead Mainline/Bachmann chassis drawer.  And my Airfix/Dapol/ Hornby 14XX graveyard.
But hey, the fridge packs up you don't send t to Indesit for repair you bin it and buy new.  Likewise you don't  buy an unused 2001 Ford Mondeo and expect the factory to fix it.  Its the 21st century.  Buy new. Run it till it stops and bin it, better still stick the bits on eBay and I'll buy it and stick a brass chassis with an X04 under it.

[5 C]

Historically, Hornby relied on their network of service agents. They were usually local model shops suitably trained and equipped to deal with repairs and supplied with a stock of spares for common issues. In many cases the repairer also had the skills to fashion new parts where no spares were available. Armature rewinding anyone?

 

Many of the model shops that remain still offer a repair service, but as they decline anyone wanting access to a local repairer may now have to travel many miles.

 

Spares availability is another matter. A few years ago following some failures, I anticipated which spares I ought to have a supply of and stocked up accordingly. These were either bought new when widely available or using broken chassis from eBay to cannibalise for spares. Many of these have proved useful but some spares were never available for the most common failures. For instance, Hornby supply a range of spare motor/worm retainers but the infamous Royal Scot/Patriot or T9 retainers were never listed by them. Split gear wheels is another one. It is possible to buy the intermediate gears as spares but many of the axle gears fail which are only available with complete wheelsets.

 

I'm quite happy to diagnose, dismantle and reassemble non-runners, in fact I quite enjoy the challenge but I appreciate it's not for everyone.

 

Bachmann on the other hand offer in house repairs, a spares service and proudly boast on their website that they even have a range of bodyshells going back many years.

[Right Away]

I do sympathize with you; I hadn't realised that split gears were such a problem before.

 

My questions are:

(1) Are certain models (of all manufacturers) more susceptible to this than others?

(2) Can operational use of an excessive nature contribute to it, i.e. continuous heavy loading, high speeds etc?

(3) is there anything owners can do to mitigate the problem occuring.

(4) Have the manufactures addressed the problem on newer units?

 

In the meantime, we are indebted to the tremendous help of our members in the absence of a satisfactory after sales repair service.

 

[5 C]

On the topic of split gears, it seems that certain models are more susceptible than others. In discussions on here and elsewhere, it's the same ones that come up time and time again. 

 

I don't think any manufacturer is necessarily immune though. A search on YouTube for split gear repair videos features a host of US Bachmann product as the subject matter for instance.

 

I'm no engineer, but it seems to me that the combination of a metal worm, interfacing with a plastic gear mounted on a metal shaft is eventually going to lead to the failure of the weakest part of that combination.

 

As far operational use that's a strange one. Some of the locos I've encountered with split gears show signs of having had little running, suggesting that the plastic splits in spite of the level of use. Others have commented that identical locos with higher mileages suffer less and that reflects my own experience.

 

I can't comment on recent manufacture, having not bought any new latest product for a few years. From my experience in the motor industry a few years ago, I'm generally wary of plastic/metal gear combinations.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Do Hornby not have service agents any more? If they do, they should tell enquirers who they are.

 

Split gears are a big problem in N gauge British outline, specifically Farish. Finding someone to fix it is straightforward if the spares are available, which isn't always the case.

 

Binning and replacing is ecologically unsound and not practical where models have not been reissued. Given the price of models nowadays, it's time issues like this were addressed.

[toboldlygo]

5 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

As a long term sufferer from split gear syndrome,you have my sympathy and full support on this issue.I have neither the skill or knowledge to do the “fiddly bits” let alone the nimbleness of fingers and eyesight.

 

For any repair that’s needed I have access to someone who can,so I’m fortunate and he has indeed provided many a skilled repair for me....including several of the above mentioned curse.The problem however doesn’t stop there.

Where....apart from Peter’s Spares....do you get the necessary parts ? Do Hornby stock them ?

 

This is a necessary and timely “cri de coeur”. It needs addressing in some way.

 

You might try contacting our resident Bulleid guru,Toboldlygo...aka James E. Mower.....for advice...your main man in rtr.S.R.

 

 

Who - me?  

 

Having dealt with a few split gears over they years (lost count I'm afraid).

 

There's a number of causes and not all can be put down to Hornby.

[Legend]

A couple of problems I think

 

For the manufacturer its just too much hassle to employ a repairs dept or even have local contractors carry out work .  There's no value added in it for them (although you could argue it would generate goodwill), they would much rather sell you a replacement .

 

Second issue is lack of spares,mainly since subcontracting manufacture to China,  so even if they had the dept they might not be able to help.

 

I had an Issue with an original Clan Line that had stripped its gears . Only way I eventually resolved it was to buy a non runner off a trade stand and take the lot to Pastimes (now closed) who were able to replace gears for me .  I'm afraid its a bit like any other modern gadgetery or even motor spares . No one repairs them any more , you are expected to chuck it away and get a new one.

[The Johnster]

Modern production and marketing (and I'm not claiming any expertise beyond an economics O level) lends itself to production in runs with the bare minimum of parts required for cost effectiveness, so none are available as surplus for spares to hold in stock; holding stock of anything is costly and discouraged anyway.  The models are reliable in general most of the time, but once they are out of warranty the idea is that there are no serviceable parts inside and you buy a complete new one and give the old one an exciting new career opportunity in the landfill business, or get rid on 'Bay if you are less worried by that sort of thing.

 

So, holding stocks of spares or having people employed to repair models costs more than it does to simply replace the model under warranty or for you to buy a new one when the warranty expires.  This does not chime well with modellers of my generation who are used to having the support of a spares department and the exploded diagram that comes in the box to order our own spares and do our own  repairs, an experience that was a useful grounding when we came to build kits and not available to modern modellers. 

 

Loco repair is time consuming and hence often uneconomic if skilled hourly paid repairers are used, so there's not much market for them despite the high demand; costs cannot be reduced to a level that the market will accept, and some people do it for cost at shows for charity donations; this is not really an 'economic' activity and market rules do not apply to it.  

 

Split plastic or nylon gears result from several issues.  The loco may have been heavily used or overloaded, a child may have attempted to push it along, wear may have allowed the gear to get out of alignment and jam, the plastic may have degraded and become brittle over time or exposure to sunlight, or chemically attacked by inappropriate lubrication, or something solid enough to cause damage to the gear may have got in there.  Modern production, for steam outline at least, favours a return to 'traditional' worm and gear drives aboard the loco with nylon worms but brass cogs.  These should have a very long service life and the worm will wear before the cog; you then replace the motor which will be on it's last legs by then anyway.  This is another reason why you should not operate below the manufacturers minimum curve radius recommendation, as it will induce sideplay on the driven axle beyond the specified tolerance and increase wear on the worm.

 

But many older models, including some still in production, will still have nylon spur drives and pancake motors, a result themselves of the desire to hide mechanisms so that correct daylight beneath boilers and detailed cabs could be featured, so the problem will be around for a while yet, with no easy solution.  Perhaps there's an opening for the 3D printers here?

Edited June 24, 2019 by The Johnster

[Mallard60022]

21 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

But many older models, including some still in production, will still have nylon spur drives and pancake motors, a result themselves of the desire to hide mechanisms so that correct daylight beneath boilers and detailed cabs could be featured, so the problem will be around for a while yet, with no easy solution.  Perhaps there's an opening for the 3D printers here?

It would be useful to have the 3D printed gears for the usual suspects including the Bulleids. I suppose the set up costs and production would be quite high? If spares are such a ##### to get hold of then it would be worth considering though. I'd pay. I'd also be happy to buy a spare chassis if that was the only answer as I said, but they are just not available seemingly; personally I don't quite get that as they must have quite a few available in China? As for binning a perfectly sound loco, apart from some crap gears, then that's a no, no and as I said, I'd rather do it myself some way, even if it took months.

If my friendly repairer can't do this job then nobody can, however I believe he has the patience of a Saint.

Phil

[Right Away]

In a way answering one of my questions, but also taking note of 5C's experiences, could not the stresses placed on the gear train, especially on the heavier models be such that sudden stopping, starting and changes of direction (train set fashion) be a contributory factor in these failures?

 

I would not imagine that any of our members operate their locomotives in such a ham-fisted manner but a model of previous ownership may have been, in which case there is another need for repair and servicing for the less dextrous but careful owner.

 

An appreciation of "mechanical sympathy" does pay dividends where the longevity of components are concerned and in these instances, DCC can play an important role. Once programmmed, the equipped engine or multiple unit can be made to always start and stop in a very gentle, prototypical way thus imparting minimal stresses to the mechanisms.

[TheSignalEngineer]

My failed T9 is at Hornby and is waiting for them to find a part. I only sent it to them because they offered to do it FOC as a known mazak victim. Usually I source bits and do it myself. 

My Royal Scot 46146 bought s/h was a poor runner. I bought a second loco which looked like a victim of a collision with a concrete floor. Stripped it, fixed the first one, kept the known vulnerable parts for future use, then sold the tender and other bits I didn't want for more than I paid. Win-win. 

With Bachmann on the other hand I have sourced several bits for s/h locos. Recently I put into traffic an N Class I bought several years ago. I needed two bits to finish the job. Emailed them a query, got a reply next day, ordered by phone and delivered in two days.

[adb968008]

If it interjects hope to model railway repairs...

 

i’m currently Training my 8 year old daughter to be the 3rd generation model railway repairer in our family,.

 

she loves it, and her credentials... she can fully dismantle and reassemble a Bachmann 03 (two piece chassis version), right down to the axles.. and she’s been taught how to quarter the wheels and test them during reassembly.

 

painting skills need a bit of work, but she’s also applied numbers and transfers and she’s meticulous about it.

 

Now I was worried how kids in her class might react... the answer came the other week, in that following a school trip to London she acquired dozens of train numbers... all the kids had been writing them down.

 

It seems to be a bit more socially acceptable than when I was a child, the class teacher asked about how practical it would be for small circular layout for a science project, given my little one described how a torch and a model train worked on the same electrical basics (understanding AC vs DC is a bit too soon, but I described it to her as flowing water, in a stream vs tides in the sea), she understood it enough to describe it at school using a glass of water to represent the battery.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by adb968008

[GWR-fan]

Alas, our precious models are generally seen by manufacturers as disposable commodities and if failed then consigned to the bin if out of the warranty period.  Living downunder I decided that if a model failed then I had to repair it using either spare parts or my ingenuity.  I do rely on Peters Spares for his excellent service in supplying spare parts but in the main I make do with what I have.

 

It is fiddly to disassemble a model to replace gears or sort out a non-running issue,  but is achievable by most.  The hardest part is in overcoming the reluctance to get started with the repair.  I have purchased over the past few years at least fifty non-runners from a well known online and shopfront retailer and have failed in just one loco in not being able to get it running to my satisfaction.  I finished up removing the motor to make a dummy for doubleheading.

 

When it comes to split gears then generally spares are needed to get the loco functional.  If an idler gear or perhaps a driven main axle gear then usually no problem as disassembly and reassembly are straight forward, if not a little fiddly.  If my oversized fingers and hands are able to do the repairs then those with more nimble dexterous fingers could easily fix most problems.  All it takes is a little care and common sense.

 

One could use the method of mixing superglue with baking soda and applying to the gap in the gear after firstly thoroughly degreasing/cleaning it.  This may give a new lease in life to the model if the split gear is slipping on the axle.  Peters Spares sell a nut driver to the size of the rod retaining bolts on both Hornby and Bachmann models and it does simplify the repair procedure. 

[Mallard60022]

7 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

Alas, our precious models are generally seen by manufacturers as disposable commodities and if failed then consigned to the bin if out of the warranty period.  Living downunder I decided that if a model failed then I had to repair it using either spare parts or my ingenuity.  I do rely on Peters Spares for his excellent service in supplying spare parts but in the main I make do with what I have.

 

It is fiddly to disassemble a model to replace gears or sort out a non-running issue,  but is achievable by most.  The hardest part is in overcoming the reluctance to get started with the repair.  I have purchased over the past few years at least fifty non-runners from a well known online and shopfront retailer and have failed in just one loco in not being able to get it running to my satisfaction.  I finished up removing the motor to make a dummy for doubleheading.

 

When it comes to split gears then generally spares are needed to get the loco functional.  If an idler gear or perhaps a driven main axle gear then usually no problem as disassembly and reassembly are straight forward, if not a little fiddly.  If my oversized fingers and hands are able to do the repairs then those with more nimble dexterous fingers could easily fix most problems.  All it takes is a little care and common sense.

 

One could use the method of mixing superglue with baking soda and applying to the gap in the gear after firstly thoroughly degreasing/cleaning it.  This may give a new lease in life to the model if the split gear is slipping on the axle.  Peters Spares sell a nut driver to the size of the rod retaining bolts on both Hornby and Bachmann models and it does simplify the repair procedure. 

Yes, I cold remove all the valve gear and maybe even replace it more prototypically, however getting the centre driver requartered might be a real challenge. However I do have a friend close by (EM modeller that has done loads of RTR conversions as well as frequently building his own chassis) that had offered to supervise such a task should I not find a person to do the full repair with confidence. In that way I am quite lucky.

The person to whom this loco is going is also doing some split chassis DCC work for me as I know he is top notch.

Phil

[Fireline]

28 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Yes, I cold remove all the valve gear and maybe even replace it more prototypically, however getting the centre driver requartered might be a real challenge. However I do have a friend close by (EM modeller that has done loads of RTR conversions as well as frequently building his own chassis) that had offered to supervise such a task should I not find a person to do the full repair with confidence. In that way I am quite lucky.

The person to whom this loco is going is also doing some split chassis DCC work for me as I know he is top notch.

Phil

 

If it is the gear on the axle, they aren't available separately. It's a wheelset change to repair that.

[RedgateModels]

7 minutes ago, Fireline said:

 

If it is the gear on the axle, they aren't available separately. It's a wheelset change to repair that.

 

That will be determined when I get the loco and the spares that come with it. Parts are available should they be needed

[Deltic]

17 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Do Hornby not have service agents any more? If they do, they should tell enquirers who they are.

Hornby  decided that many were calling themselves Service Agents without any formal training, so they ceased to have any. So now all repairs are sent back, as that is the Hornby preferred model for repairs.

 

We have been asking for years now for Hornby to go back to having Service Agents - we even supplied copies of the 'training materials etc" provided after attending the course in Margate. 

 

To date there has been no movement, but Simon and Co are looking at improving all the Hornby Brands and firstly they need to get product out and rebuild confidence in the marketplace.

[adb968008]

To have a service agent network you need spare parts.

However that is just part of the story.

 

You are correct about needing certification, but programs like this carry risk and rewards.

just going to sit an exam doesnt qualify you forever, similarly being qualified means you get to wear the logo of support from the vendor, which increases your revenue potential, whilst leaving legal risk exposure to the logo vendor.

 

i’d imagine any 21st century partner program should include training, on going assessment, supply of spares, support on issues and field expertise to trouble shoot major issues.

 

I wouldn't expect Hornby to supply that level of support for free, I’d expect if I were to be a qualified Service specialist, wear the badge and to stand out from others, would carry an annual fee and expect on going assessment, whilst reaping the benefits of spares supply &  ongoing support from the vendor.

 

fwiw I still have my Service agent registration papers for Hornby, and one for Riko (Lima) from 1991.. as no one ever canceled it.. maybe I still am an agent ?.. therein is the problem i’m highlighting... I still have a mass supply of spare parts from those days too... Lima sold them in trays, Hornby sold them in recommended bundles. In my time ive handled over 2000 locos repaired one way or another..indeed it funded me through uni, 20 years back though nowadays I look after my own as ive not seen a market for it, for the previous posters reasons.. too expensive, need to be local, availability of spares etc.

Edited June 26, 2019 by adb968008

[geoffers]

I am slightly bemused by this thread and I will tell you why. I have sent Bulleid locos to Hornby in the past (several years ago in fact) with split gears and they happily repaired them for me for no cost. Of course since then Hornby may well have changed their view. All I know is that I contacted Hornby earlier this year with 34109 suffering gear slippage, and a Britannia with valve gear falling off and chatting with the repairs department explained the issue. They said send them in and we will see what we can do but with no guarantee that they could repair.  I did and they were returned repaired and working. I had offered to pay but the only cost to me was initial postage. Maybe the repair was carried out using the original bits so they did not need new ones? But I thank Hornby for doing so. But in common with some of the posts above it has proved nigh on impossible to find someone locally to me to carry out repairs, though my local model shop (and it is a first rate shop) recommend Peter's Spares.

Edited June 29, 2019 by geoffers

[John Tomlinson]

FWIW my observation is that some complete wheelsets aren't that expensive, and I'm sure if you shop around on the web you'll be surprised. The Hornby website itself is as good as any, memory says £3.99 for a Bulleid WC set when I was last on there. Lendons of Cardiff also offer good value. AC models of Eastleigh have a good range, but probably a bit more expensive, whilst Peters Spares have probably the greatest coverage, but again maybe a touch pricier. It's also generally true that prices are less if you buy direct rather than via ebay, a 'phone call direct may be the best option.

 

I appreciate this isn't a help to those needing to pay for repairs, but it may enable you to source parts to keep cost down.

 

John.

 

P.S. Meant to say that the Hornby wheelsets I've replaced inc. Bulleid WC and King Arthurs are drop in items, You undo the baseplates, disconnect the valve gear at the big end crank, and lift out, dropping the new one in, they come with bearings on the axles. So no taking wheels off and faffing with quatering.

Edited June 30, 2019 by John Tomlinson
P.S.