Any Sign of New Hornby Gresley A1/A3s without ski-jump?

[robmcg]

Hi All,

 

There have been a few recent threads about Hornby A1/A3 Gresley models, mostly about the bewildering array of models available.

 

With Flying Scotsman versions, equally bewildering. A recent BR blue version of 60103 appears to be better-assembled than some recent issues like Book Law and Firdaussi, ... or is it?

 

That Hattons photo suggests quite good assembly, if you forget the ashpan lever, missing or on the wrong side... Hattons photo, thankyou Hattons

 

 

Ok it's not perfect, but I think very nice regardless.  edit, see below for further thoughts!

 

My BIG QUESTION is, will the June 2019 release of 4472 in GNR form be good?  Ski-jump or not? The Hornby factory photo shows the usual inaccuracies, random valve gear heights, front steps missing, and so on.

 

 

..but it does at least have the ashpan lever on the correct side.

 

Here is an older model r2405 GNR A1 4470 which may be used perhaps as a yardstick. Hattons again, thankyou.

 

 

So in short, it does not look to me as if the ski-jump has been entirely eliminated, but is not as bad as it once was, and assembly around and below the cab has a;ways been a bit troublesome.

 

I like the idea of a very early 4472 so look forward to its release, which I presume is imminent.

 

Any thoughts or opinions?

 

cheers

 

edit, further pics of blue 60103 and I might have answered my own question...

 

 

and a Rails pic, I think suggests that there may be some issues with current assembly,   but will it extend to the A1 GNR mouldings?

 

 

cheers again...  

Edited July 4, 2019 by robmcg
clarification, additions

[micklner]

The latest Scotsman version is wrong .

 

It is not a GNR version, it is as It was shown at Wembley Exhibition in 1923 but it should be with a K3 GS Tender, as the 8 wheel version made it too long to get in the Hall. There is a photo were it was being prepared with a 8 wheel tender outside before the lack of space was confirmed. 

 

Very poor research at best , let alone the god awful Hermes ski jump , to top it off they are asking £210 for one 

 

The "Hermes" versions can be corrected , by literally breaking the front of the footplate and wedging the front into the correct position. I have corrected a Book Law, only when they became at a low budget price first !!.

Edited July 4, 2019 by micklner
price

[Hilux5972]

You were saying it’s wrong? Hornby never said that it was supposed to be as it was displayed at Wembley. Flying Scotsman was fitted with a GNR tender from Feb 23-April 25, and then again from Nov 25-Feb 28, when she was then fitted with a Corridor tender, then again from Oct 36-May 38. 

[Traintresta]

Ski-jump?

[Steamport Southport]

12 minutes ago, Traintresta said:

Ski-jump?

 

The running plate slopes upwards at an alarming angle just by the cylinders. Starts just by the front splasher and rises upwards. It should be straight and flat.

 

Some people can live with it or don't know different, for others it's a valid reason not to buy.

 

 

 

Jason

[micklner]

43 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

You were saying it’s wrong? Hornby never said that it was supposed to be as it was displayed at Wembley. Flying Scotsman was fitted with a GNR tender from Feb 23-April 25, and then again from Nov 25-Feb 28, when she was then fitted with a Corridor tender, then again from Oct 36-May 38. 

 

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/lner-a1-class-4-6-2-4472-flying-scotsman-era-3.html 

 

Read the blurb Wembley is vaguely mentioned and that was reason for the Crest being fitted, the reason for having highly polished buffers and wheel rims (which Hornby have still left lined out ), are wrong as shown in the above photo. It never ran in service as shown, as said it's poor research by Hornby, they should have fitted a GS Tender.

 

Very poor effort, for a very expensive model.

Edited July 4, 2019 by micklner

[Steamport Southport]

3 minutes ago, micklner said:

 

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/lner-a1-class-4-6-2-4472-flying-scotsman-era-3.html 

 

Read the blurb Wembley is vaguely mentioned and that was reason for the crest being fitted, being highly polished etc. It never ran in service as shown, said  as it's poor research by Hornby, they should have fitted a GS Tender.

 

Very poor choice for a very expensive model.

 

Made for the collectors market though. We all know that some people will buy anything with FS on it...

 

It didn't have gold plated valve gear either as on the recent USA Tour model. But if they sell them and make money then hopefully they can reinvest that into proper models for us lot.

 

 

Jason

[Traintresta]

36 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The running plate slopes upwards at an alarming angle just by the cylinders. Starts just by the front splasher and rises upwards. It should be straight and flat.

 

Some people can live with it or don't know different, for others it's a valid reason not to buy.

 

 

 

Jason

I’m not very fussy about prototypical accuracy in terms of measurements but I couldn’t live with that. 

[MikeParkin65]

6 minutes ago, Traintresta said:

I’m not very fussy about prototypical accuracy in terms of measurements but I couldn’t live with that. 

You really need to see the actual model rather than judge on photographs though. In the context of my layout many of these errors that look awful in photo's are invisible on a model that is running and barely noticeable even when its stationary. 

 

I'm happily running new and old style Castles and Duchesses side by side hauling slab sided Gresley coaches passing K1's with apparently wobbly running boards.  If I ever 'worry' about any of these issues it will be after I've ballasted the track, installed the signals, built the station etc etc

[Traintresta]

1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

You really need to see the actual model rather than judge on photographs though. In the context of my layout many of these errors that look awful in photo's are invisible on a model that is running and barely noticeable even when its stationary. 

 

I'm happily running new and old style Castles and Duchesses side by side hauling slab sided Gresley coaches passing K1's with apparently wobbly running boards.  If I ever 'worry' about any of these issues it will be after I've ballasted the track, installed the signals, built the station etc etc

I’m on the spectrum, once I notice something like this it doesn’t go away, at least not in my mind. There are all sorts of inaccuracies I can tolerate in models but stuff like this drives me nuts. 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Traintresta

[cctransuk]

11 minutes ago, Traintresta said:

I’m on the spectrum .......

 

What does this mean - I hear it regularly nowadays?

 

Does it imply that you are fastidious about correct detail?

 

If so, join the rest of us - does that mean we are all 'on the spectrum'?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

What does this mean - I hear it regularly nowadays?

 

Does it imply that you are fastidious about correct detail?

 

If so, join the rest of us - does that mean we are all 'on the spectrum'?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Autism.

 

Whilst some people use it as a cover for just being a bit pedantic or picky, it's a genuine thing and can be debilitating in severe cases.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum

 

 

 

Jason

[Mark Saunders]

23 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

If so, join the rest of us - does that mean we are all 'on the spectrum'?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

We all probably somewhere on it just some are further along than others!

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Autism.

 

Whilst some people use it as a cover for just being a bit pedantic or picky, it's a genuine thing and can be debilitating in severe cases.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum

 

 

 

Jason

 

As my wife had a career in what is now known as special educational needs, I am well aware of the difficulties experienced by genuine sufferers of autism.

 

Unfortunately, being 'on the spectrum' seems to be fashionable nowadays, and the term is used as an excuse, especially by lazy parents, for behaviour which would otherwise be classed as willful, rude and otherwise unreasonable.

 

Living close to a small 'exclusive' coastal resort, popular with the privileged and the 'nouveau riche', one is lead to believe that the overwhelming majority of the offspring of this sector of society are 'on the spectrum', such is the extremity of their arrogant, inconsiderate and undisciplined behaviour!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Traintresta]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Autism.

 

Whilst some people use it as a cover for just being a bit pedantic or picky, it's a genuine thing and can be debilitating in severe cases.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum

 

 

 

Jason

 

1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

We all probably somewhere on it just some are further along than others!

Fortunately mine isn’t debilitating except on social and emotional circumstances but sometimes I think that’s a blessing. However, I do suffer a lot from the obsessive thought processes that go with it. 

 

We we all have to be on it somewhere for it to be s spectrum, but I do think it is still vastly understated of both by those who are on it and those who aren’t. 

[truffy]

5 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Unfortunately, being 'on the spectrum' seems to be fashionable nowadays,

 

Not as fashionable as bipolar disorder though. Ever since Stephen Fry came out, as being bipolar that is, every Tom, Dick, and Harriet has got a second pole.

 

I feel so inadequate only having depression.

[cctransuk]

Just now, Traintresta said:

 

Fortunately mine isn’t debilitating except on social and emotional circumstances but sometimes I think that’s a blessing. However, I do suffer a lot from the obsessive thought processes that go with it. 

 

We we all have to be on it somewhere for it to be s spectrum, but I do think it is still vastly understated of both by those who are on it and those who aren’t. 

 

I know that I exhibit obsessional behaviour, and have permanently obsessional thought processes. I would consider trainspotting (in my youth), and buying and building excessive numbers of model railway rolling stock indicative of that condition.

 

However, I do not feel the need to declare myself to be within any spectrum - it's just how I am. I would consider persons who spend hours knocking a little white ball around with sticks to be somewhat odd and obsessive, not to mention the sizeable proportion of the population who get excessively emotional when 'their' team of eleven ball kickers and catchers fails to perform up to expectations!

 

It just part of the human condition.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Traintresta]

9 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I know that I exhibit obsessional behaviour, and have permanently obsessional thought processes. I would consider trainspotting (in my youth), and buying and building excessive numbers of model railway rolling stock indicative of that condition.

 

However, I do not feel the need to declare myself to be within any spectrum - it's just how I am. I would consider persons who spend hours knocking a little white ball around with sticks to be somewhat odd and obsessive, not to mention the sizeable proportion of the population who get excessively emotional when 'their' team of eleven ball kickers and catchers fails to perform up to expectations!

 

It just part of the human condition.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Declaring myself as on a spectrum has helped me understand myself. It’s not about anything other than that for me, understanding how my brain is wired up and dealing with that for my own benefit. I’m very much an advocate of the spectrum being a part of being human and promote that but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t acknowledge it. People deal with it in different ways, some I’m not a fan of, but knowing how I cope badly with some stuff, I try to be understanding of others. In doing so I am able to be more relaxed about things that used to frustrate me.  

 

I’d be interested to know what you consider as obsessive thoughts? I sometimes get so obsessed about a particular thing that I keep repeating the same thought process over and over and over until I cannot concentrate on anything until I’ve dealt with it, and sometimes that can give me a migraine. Not helped by multiple thought process going on at once in my head, up to 6 or 7 at times. If several are repetitive it makes it difficult to function properly. There are times people think I’m being rude or disinterested, but it’s a side-effect of not being able to break out of obsessive thought processes. 

[cctransuk]

4 hours ago, Traintresta said:

Declaring myself as on a spectrum has helped me understand myself. It’s not about anything other than that for me, understanding how my brain is wired up and dealing with that for my own benefit. I’m very much an advocate of the spectrum being a part of being human and promote that but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t acknowledge it. People deal with it in different ways, some I’m not a fan of, but knowing how I cope badly with some stuff, I try to be understanding of others. In doing so I am able to be more relaxed about things that used to frustrate me.  

 

I’d be interested to know what you consider as obsessive thoughts? I sometimes get so obsessed about a particular thing that I keep repeating the same thought process over and over and over until I cannot concentrate on anything until I’ve dealt with it, and sometimes that can give me a migraine. Not helped by multiple thought process going on at once in my head, up to 6 or 7 at times. If several are repetitive it makes it difficult to function properly. There are times people think I’m being rude or disinterested, but it’s a side-effect of not being able to break out of obsessive thought processes. 

 

But what does 'on a spectrum' mean? Nobody can tell me.

 

I have had serious anxiety symptoms; I have had a mental breakdown; I have had CBT; I remain on antidepressants and still occasionally get anxious, and have obsessive habits and thoughts all of the time. But I am not on any 'spectrum' - I can't be because I don't know what it means!

 

I have a disruptive mental condition, caused by historic stress, with which I have learned to live, with the help of medication. I am me - I don't need a label of 'being on the spectrum' to define me; I just get on with life and its good - most of the time.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[G-BOAF]

10 hours ago, micklner said:

The latest Scotsman version is wrong .

 

It is not a GNR version, it is as It was shown at Wembley Exhibition in 1923 but it should be with a K3 GS Tender, as the 8 wheel version made it too long to get in the Hall. There is a photo were it was being prepared with a 8 wheel tender outside before the lack of space was confirmed. 

 

Very poor research at best , let alone the god awful Hermes ski jump , to top it off they are asking £210 for one 

 

The "Hermes" versions can be corrected , by literally breaking the front of the footplate and wedging the front into the correct position. I have corrected a Book Law, only when they became at a low budget price first !!.

 

Are you sure you are correct?

Based on my understanding of history at that time, the situation was as follows:

Flying Scotsman was first displayed at Wembley in 1924 with a GNR 8 Wheel Tender. For a second period of  display through to 1925, it was decided to display it with a new LNER coach. There was not enough space for loco + coach, so a smaller tender was substituted then.

 

See picture here for loco displayed on its own with 8 wheel tender

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/pt1708-Flying-Scotsman-at-Wembley-Exhibition-of-1924-London-photograph-6x4-/391986404128

 

And here for loco displayed with coach and smaller tender

https://www.railwaymagazinemodelling.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/2017/08/RMM-September-p18a.jpg

 

You are usually so knowledgeable on LNER matters but I'm tempted to call you out here....

 

8 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

You really need to see the actual model rather than judge on photographs though. In the context of my layout many of these errors that look awful in photo's are invisible on a model that is running and barely noticeable even when its stationary. 

 

I'm happily running new and old style Castles and Duchesses side by side hauling slab sided Gresley coaches passing K1's with apparently wobbly running boards.  If I ever 'worry' about any of these issues it will be after I've ballasted the track, installed the signals, built the station etc etc

Re the ski slope.

When first released, Hornby’s A1/A3 was generally true and well built, albeit weird goings on with the cab running plate on some examples.

 

Since the factory moves in 2013, all examples have displayed a bowed front running plate. Comparisons on RMweb between SK and REF models suggest the running plate has been retooled, and components do not align properly. Significant cutting and forcing of the running plate is required to correct this, and even then it isn’t quite 100%. The bowing really distracts from the beautiful lines of the model, and cannot be easily corrected, if at all in some cases.

 

For those of you for whom this does not matter, how do you justify spending £150+ on a model of such fine detail? Detail is only worthwhile if basic dimensions and shapes are right. E.g. what is the point in a detailed buffer beam if the buffer beam is 25% higher than it should be off the track because the running plate is bowed? A stupidly high buffer beam IS visible as the loco is running round the layout.

 

Hornby have it within their powers to get this right. The basic CAD is correct. The original tooling did not have this problem, so its not an inherent flaw in the design of the model. This is why it is unacceptable. We all appreciate compromises are necessary in 4mm models, but given this was right in the past, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for skewed running plates as a necessary compromise, other than someone somewhere didn’t do their job properly/is cutting corners.

 

If they got this right I would certainly be in the market for an as-preserved 60103, but I won’t while they fail to rectify this issue.

 

[truffy]

5 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

But what does 'on a spectrum' mean? Nobody can tell me.

For any mental illness there are 'normals' and 'extreme abnormals'. And everyone else is somewhere inbetween...on the spectrum between the two extremes. Some may exhibit mild characteristics, others more severe.

 

I have OCD, as well as depression spells, but neither are extreme or debilitating. I edge towards the 'normal'/0 end of those spectra. My youngest daughter expresses autistic characteristics, but she's 'high-functioning'.

[cctransuk]

15 minutes ago, truffy said:

For any mental illness there are 'normals' and 'extreme abnormals'. And everyone else is somewhere inbetween...on the spectrum between the two extremes. Some may exhibit mild characteristics, others more severe.

 

I have OCD, as well as depression spells, but neither are extreme or debilitating. I edge towards the 'normal'/0 end of those spectra. My youngest daughter expresses autistic characteristics, but she's 'high-functioning'.

 

It's all fashionable gobbledy-g00k !! We're all different, but society insists on trying to label us all. EVERYONE has 'peculiarities' - there is no such thing as 'normal'.

 

In a social environment, some personal 'peculiarities' are deemed to be undesirable and so the 'sufferer' is labelled as being 'abnormal'. This labelling - even amongst mental health professionals - is wholly counter-productive.

 

When I discussed my symptoms with a mental health professional, it was explained to me that certain recent life experiences had sensitised me, and produced symptoms that I was finding disruptive to the way I wished to conduct my life. I was assisted to recognise the triggers for these symptoms, how to avoid or minimise them, and was prescribed medication that helped me to avoid over-reacting.

 

At no point was it suggested that I was 'on the spectrum' which, IMHO, is a convenient catch-all to reassure sufferers that they are 'normal', and to avoid the need to look closer into the actual cause of the mental problems.

 

... which in itself could well be a symptom of insufficient mental health professionals trying to help an overwhelming body of patients!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited July 4, 2019 by cctransuk

[truffy]

Perhaps 'normal' is the wrong word. Perhaps 'non responder', or something. Doesn't matter, like you said, it's convenient labelling. But there's not doubt that some respond to a more sever degree that others, even if everyone does to at least a minimal degree (minimal enough to keep it hidden...even from themselves).

 

Nevertheless, that's where the 'spectrum' concept comes in, fashionable hipster gobbledegook or not.

[jonny777]

39 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

 

Are you sure you are correct?

Based on my understanding of history at that time, the situation was as follows:

Flying Scotsman was first displayed at Wembley in 1924 with a GNR 8 Wheel Tender. For a second period of  display through to 1925, it was decided to display it with a new LNER coach. There was not enough space for loco + coach, so a smaller tender was substituted then.

 

See picture here for loco displayed on its own with 8 wheel tender

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/pt1708-Flying-Scotsman-at-Wembley-Exhibition-of-1924-London-photograph-6x4-/391986404128

 

And here for loco displayed with coach and smaller tender

https://www.railwaymagazinemodelling.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/2017/08/RMM-September-p18a.jpg

 

You are usually so knowledgeable on LNER matters but I'm tempted to call you out here....

 

Re the ski slope.

When first released, Hornby’s A1/A3 was generally true and well built, albeit weird goings on with the cab running plate on some examples.

 

Since the factory moves in 2013, all examples have displayed a bowed front running plate. Comparisons on RMweb between SK and REF models suggest the running plate has been retooled, and components do not align properly. Significant cutting and forcing of the running plate is required to correct this, and even then it isn’t quite 100%. The bowing really distracts from the beautiful lines of the model, and cannot be easily corrected, if at all in some cases.

 

For those of you for whom this does not matter, how do you justify spending £150+ on a model of such fine detail? Detail is only worthwhile if basic dimensions and shapes are right. E.g. what is the point in a detailed buffer beam if the buffer beam is 25% higher than it should be off the track because the running plate is bowed? A stupidly high buffer beam IS visible as the loco is running round the layout.

 

<snip>

 

 

I'm not sure I follow this argument from the autistic point of view. 

 

Are you saying that when you have a large pacific loco (with a 25% rise in the buffer beam) and moulded plastic coal in the tender, running around unprototypical sharp radius curves with an enormous gap between the loco and coaches, whose corridor 'connections' don't even meet, on an express with only 5 coaches because the station platform can only hold that number without the train fouling all the over-sharp radius turnouts at either end of the station; the only thing you notice is the upward sloping buffer beam? 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by jonny777

[robmcg]

I look forward to seeing LNER A1 4472 regardless.  I too have seen many variations of straightness or otherwise on recent models, K1s, A3s, and many others, if you look hard enough you'll find errors in most. The ski jump can sometimes, if present, be reduced or eliminated with a good look with body off, judicious 'adjustment', luck, dexterity and prayer. 

 

The 1923-5 look of 4472 is accurate as far as I'm concerned, as well as beautiful and very impressive for the day. It obviously wouldn't have had polished wheel rims as per Wembley all through everyday service  even if well-cleaned. Or maybe it did.

 

Here is a late-20s ? 4472 photoshopped from memory from a 4475 'Flying Fox'

 

 

 

edit; not sure when the GN cab and chimney changed...  late 20s?   i have my green book somewhere but out of reach right now.

Edited July 4, 2019 by robmcg