Digitrax Radio Throttle Problems at Big Shows

[PaulRhB]

3 hours ago, roundhouse said:

 

Regarding visitors mobiles being set to wifi and Bluetooth on, its probably more likely that people forget to switch these options off. I sometimes forget but normally do switch them off to conserve battery and better security.

I don’t think it’s wifi & Bluetooth on but it actively being a hotspot open to other devices that’s the issue.

I can’t ‘see’ a phone with WiFi on on the list or I’d have seen the other throttles on our layout but I could see those acting as routers with ‘personal hotspot’ turned on. 

[WIMorrison]

Paul

 

What you can see is the SSID of WiFi routers that are beaconing (or broadcasting) their network presence. A hotspot is the name applied when it is happening on a phone or MiFi device.

 

[PaulRhB]

13 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

those acting as routers with ‘personal hotspot’ turned on. 

 

8 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Paul

 

What you can see is the SSID of WiFi routers that are beaconing (or broadcasting) their network presence. A hotspot is the name applied when it is happening on a phone or MiFi device.

 

Yep, that’s what I actually meant by the bit above but probably confused people who know the technical terms for it. I just know that turning on the hotspot turns it into a router  

[roundhouse]

If people leave their hotspot/ wifi on then they will soon have a flat battery. Done that once in a while but normally remember to switch it off.

Edited November 26, 2019 by roundhouse

[WIMorrison]

Interestingly it isn't the hotspot that consumes power, it is WiFi hardware itself. The hotspot is simply a software switch on the hardware for WiFi and it is the hardware consumes the power. I wager that 99% of people use WiFi at home and that the majority of those people will also use WiFi in the office and train/bus going to work - this means that they never switch the WiFi off and if they have used it as a hotspot than they won't remember to switch that off.

 

If you want to save battery and be more secure, then switch off WiFi and Bluetooth, easy enough on some phones - but harder on others

Edited November 26, 2019 by WIMorrison
must learn to spell!

[Nigelcliffe]

15 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

If you want to save battery and be more secure, then switch off WiFi and Bluetooth, easy enough on some phones - but harder on others

 

Can also save a lot of battery if one switches off 4G data when not using it, and the GPS capabilities.   I expect that the magnetic compass associated with GPS on some phones is also a battery drainer (it used to be known as the "discharge the battery feature" on old Garmin hand-held GPS navigation devices 15 years ago).    

 

I have a little free button bar App on my Android phone to turn Bluetooth, phone data, WiFi and GPS individually on/off.  Using it makes a significant difference to battery life. 

 

 

[Andymsa]

A bit tongue in cheek, have a big metal cage around layouts like a faraday cage 

[Junctionmad]

I spent many years supplying industrial Wi-Fi solutions into warehouses factories etc. 

 

It doesn't  matter if you are a router , access point or simply a Wi-Fi client. Once the device is switched on you have a transmitter on a Wi-Fi Channel  or set of  Channels. Hotspoting as nothing to do with it. Hotspoting is solely a software concept. 

 

Once you have significant numbers of transmitters problems arise , as devices cannot extract information about their Wi-Fi connection from the competing jumble of many transmitters occupying what is now a small spectrum.  Increasing the number of access points can actually make things worse as phones can jump from point to point excessively . 

 

There is an advantage where one or two area sized Wi-Fi networks are active and all devices join them as the protocol manages collisions .  The problem is infinitely worse where you have a plethora of disconnected Wi-Fi networks. In that respect hotspoting adds to the chaos , but in fact merely having yours phones Wi-Fi on , but not participating in an existing Wi-Fi is as bad.  The use of more advanced channel aggregating protocols like “n” etc have reduced the availability of clear channels and virtually everything can conflict these days 

 

There is no easy solution , moving to 5 GHz is a temporary one. 

 

Note simply by changing the Z21 router to a  5ghz capable one allows you to move the Z21 to that spectrum , there  is nothing unique in the supplied router. You  can change the base ip and subsets in the Z21 also if desired 

 

there is even more issues in such a crowded space for non 802.11 protocols , like used in digitrak , etc. Ultimately again there’s no easy solution 

 

by the way , you can’t be  “ advertised” to your phone without allowing it to connect to a Wi-Fi network , that’s purely your decision , so ensure you set your settings.  nobody can connect to your Wi-Fi if it’s password protected ( well not without a big truck outside with a bank of NSA computers , and if that’s the case you have more to worry about then model railways  ) . 

 

I have similar problems at home with interference from multiple broadband routers around me affecting performance , I’ve moved most of the high throughout traffic to 5ghz as a result and the 2.4 space is mainly used by IoT devices , home automation etc. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Junctionmad

[Junctionmad]

Quote

 

We aren’t going to stop that as they will just ignore announcements to switch off hotspots and ramping up the power of our routers is just going to wipe out other layouts around us. A friend in the business has suggested some kit he uses in these multi shared offices in London so we will see how that goes and if successful I’ll report back. Basically it scans for the less used channels but I’m not sure if the Multimaus etc are compatible until we look into it more. 

Quote

 

Such scanners are all but useless these days as there are so few clear non overlapping channels available because of 802.11n etc. Great when we all used “ b” etc. Largely a waste of time nowadays 

 

you can’t increase “ the power of your router “ certainly not legally , these levels are all set by international agreement 

 

note that conformance with the Wi-Fi standard means all devices can switch to any legal channel, including the multi mouse . As I said it does little these days. 

 

Note that where you can , set up your throttle network on 802.11b , the nature of speed versus propagation makes such a system a little bit better at resisting interference

[PaulRhB]

But won’t the channel scanning may help eliminate a lot of the factory preset transmitters, as in people with phones directly by the layout? I suspect in a fixed office you’re correct but we got locked out only when it was busy around the layout, that’s when we realised it wasn’t the powerful ones we could see all the time around the hall but personal phones popping on then off our list at a ferocious rate. I assumed from that that these are less powerful and we were only seeing a few doing this on Sunday, on Saturday when it was packed around us all you could see on the graphic scanner was a mush of peaks obscuring the three that had been there all the time. 

If the personal phones are scanning all the channels as well I guess that would still clog the system up. 

I also assumed it was a power related issue in that the iPhones and tablets we had running the Z21 app didn’t experience the issue, just the WiFi Multimaus’.

[s182ggu]

Does anyone have any experience of the Digitrax Loconet WiFi Interface (LNWI) in these exhibition circumstances?

 

I'm using one for my non-exhibition layout with an iPod and an iPhone running WiThrottle and I have to say I'm well pleased!

Edited November 27, 2019 by s182ggu

[WIMorrison]

I think that you will find that it is not approved for use within the EU therefore should not be used at UK exhibitions.

 

the NA 2.4GHz spectrum is slightly different than that authorised in the EU and also the broadcast is different to that authorised.

 

a device such as this is very likely to cause issues for other approved WiFi equipment especially under the circumstances being discussed.

[Steven B]

I believe the LNWI work but are not licensed for use in the UK so not strictly legal....

 

Unfortuntately, if put a lot of 2.4GHz devices in the same room and they're going to interfere with each other. Put enough Wi-Fi routers in a room and performance will drop.

 

I'm guessing the Digitrax system doesn't transmit as much power as Wi-Fi or the band-width/protocol used is more  susceptible to interference. A Laptop or Raspberry Pie running JMRI with a WiFi access point and a Locobuffer may be the best solution for busier environments.

 

Steven B.

 

[peach james]

Having had a look in my stuff, if you can legally use it in the UK, the older Digitrax one way radio is 900 MHz, so might be less prone to being swamped out...

 

(sometimes, if you wait long enough, the tech comes back to help you...)

 

James

[Nigelcliffe]

Old Digitrax "simplex" radio isn't legal in the UK/EU.   ( Same situation exists with several US brand's radio kit. )

 

Digitrax went to the effort of getting the Duplex stuff CE marked.  Though technically its only the models with the "CE" at the end of the name which are legal, there are two items for each in the Digitrax catalogue, those with the mark, and those without.     Digitrax decided it wasn't worth the hassle of certifying the LNWI WiFi device for UK/EU, so the only legal way to do that in the UK is to go down the JMRI WiThrottle server route (broadly similar price to a LNWI is the combination of a LocoBuffer plus RaspberryPI running JMRI). 

 

- Nigel

[WIMorrison]

1 hour ago, peach james said:

Having had a look in my stuff, if you can legally use it in the UK, the older Digitrax one way radio is 900 MHz, so might be less prone to being swamped out...

 

(sometimes, if you wait long enough, the tech comes back to help you...)

 

James

you are competing with Mobile Phones in that area of the spectrum

[Junctionmad]

On 27/11/2019 at 11:23, PaulRhB said:

But won’t the channel scanning may help eliminate a lot of the factory preset transmitters, as in people with phones directly by the layout? I suspect in a fixed office you’re correct but we got locked out only when it was busy around the layout, that’s when we realised it wasn’t the powerful ones we could see all the time around the hall but personal phones popping on then off our list at a ferocious rate. I assumed from that that these are less powerful and we were only seeing a few doing this on Sunday, on Saturday when it was packed around us all you could see on the graphic scanner was a mush of peaks obscuring the three that had been there all the time. 

If the personal phones are scanning all the channels as well I guess that would still clog the system up. 

I also assumed it was a power related issue in that the iPhones and tablets we had running the Z21 app didn’t experience the issue, just the WiFi Multimaus’.

 

The reality is that the designs of 20Mhz spacing in the 802.11 spec,  is that there are only 5 ( 3 in the US) channels that actually arnt overlapped out of the 13 ( 11 in teh US) that are available 

 

In many cases Wifi roams around looking for channels 

 

802.11n 40Mhz makes it even worse as this leaves virtually no overlapping channels

 

The result is in any sort of crowded space , there is no " free" un-contended  channels in reality so a scanner is virtually useless , ie as shown below ( a cafe in an urban area ) Pick your channel etc !!!

 

( This is the Android app WiFi Analyzer)

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Junctionmad

[melmerby]

I've just checked my home area using "Vistumbler" on my Windows laptop

There were 34 Wi-Fi signals showing.

Some had one SSID and several MACs, most were just isolated signals.

 

There were 10 on Channel 1, 15 on Channel 6 and 8 on Channel 11 and just one on Channel 4 (Me!)

( I moved my modem channel to 4 some time ago to get more reliable connections.)

 

One Sky device had 4 signals, 2 on ch6, two on ch1

Some signals went from 60% to 0 and back to 60% frequently, others just wandered up and down a bit.

 

 

1 device was on 11ac, the rest were 11n.

 

Any comments?

 

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by melmerby

[WIMorrison]

@melmerby - shows that there are a lot of houses around you

[melmerby]

Just now, WIMorrison said:

@melmerby - shows that there are a lot of houses around you

The one on one side is empty as is one opposite, the guy the other side doesn't have wifi and they are not tightly packed urban houses either, most are detached, with 100' rear gardens and 20' fronts.

 

I dread to think what it would be like in a terrace or block of flats.

[melmerby]

As people arrive home from work and switch things on, the number increases.

It's now up to 43 signals and some of them are stronger than my modem, which is sitting just 6' from the laptop!

Why are theirs so strong?

[WIMorrison]

Keith

 

You will be getting a mix of 2.4GHz and 5GHz signals which will account for the some of differing strengths, plus there are people arriving home with phones and 'hotspots' and you can probably add into that mix a lot of misconfigured devices which are not set to UK (or EU).

 

Regrettably absolutely nothing you can do about it - other than lining your house with meta and earthing it out (the Faraday cage referred to earlier  )

[Crosland]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

The one on one side is empty as is one opposite, the guy the other side doesn't have wifi and they are not tightly packed urban houses either, most are detached, with 100' rear gardens and 20' fronts.

 

Nice line of sight link

 

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

 

I dread to think what it would be like in a terrace or block of flats.

 

Probably not as bad as you think, based on my experience in a house that was all solid walls. We had to use ethrnet over the mains to get to some of the bedrooms.

 

[Junctionmad]

Again bear in mind the channel overlap issue with 802.11

 

simply because it’s looks free doesn’t mean it’s not overlapped.   

Edited December 4, 2019 by Junctionmad

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Crosland said:

 

Nice line of sight link

 

 

Probably not as bad as you think, based on my experience in a house that was all solid walls. We had to use ethrnet over the mains to get to some of the bedrooms.

 

I can't see my modem in the garden (railway room) and it can't see my modem in the house, both can see loads of others though.