Bachmann Class 20 DRS

[Erixtar1992]

Will be a bit of a joke if they didnt bother doing the markers. 
all that effort on a new ground up loco to leave out something so stupid.

surely not? 

 

[Pre Grouping fan]

25 minutes ago, Erixtar1992 said:

Will be a bit of a joke if they didnt bother doing the markers. 
all that effort on a new ground up loco to leave out something so stupid.

surely not? 

 

My Bachmann collectors club magazine specifically said a reason why they weren't included, sadly I can't find said piece. 

[Erixtar1992]

27 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

My Bachmann collectors club magazine specifically said a reason why they weren't included, sadly I can't find said piece. 

Ah shame. Be interesting to find out. 
just seems odd tbh, its such a nice looking model to then ruin with the usual Bachmann diesel lack of markers.

 

better save some LEDs then hadnt i... lol

[sanspareil]

15 hours ago, Erixtar1992 said:

Will be a bit of a joke if they didnt bother doing the markers. 
all that effort on a new ground up loco to leave out something so stupid.

surely not? 

 

 

Not the only brand making current release compromises - of course Realtrack have just used painted markers on their wipac 156s due to costs at the point of manufacture. Look pretty dire and enough to put me off purchase. I am sure Bachmann could have done something but am sure its cost related rather than a manufacturing limitation. I bet you Accurascale wouldn't have made this compromise and found a way!!

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by sanspareil

[scottrains29]

I was looking forward to a DRS one but I'm quite put off by the the lack of marker lights. It's very noticeable when the the headlights work but the markers don't. Completely unacceptable for a £165 model. I thought they would've learnt their lesson from the class 66!

I guess it leaves the door open for the ultimate 20/3 from another manufacturer!

[Global]

12 minutes ago, scottrains29 said:

I was looking forward to a DRS one but I'm quite put off by the the lack of marker lights. It's very noticeable when the the headlights work but the markers don't. Completely unacceptable for a £165 model. I thought they would've learnt their lesson from the class 66!

I guess it leaves the door open for the ultimate 20/3 from another manufacturer!

Whilst I wasn’t going to be buying these now because they are out of my era, having changed from modern to late 80s I probably was considering them when announced! 
 

I get how disappointing this is - it was the one thing that really bugged me with my fleet of 66s before I sold them. 
 

I can’t see how they can’t get this right, it can’t be a space issue as surely it’s an led and a bit of wire?! 
 

Personally if for whatever strange reason they can only do two lights I’d have rather had markers and one headlight, rather than the day/night headlight option, at least then you’d have the prototypical triangle of lights. 

[newbryford]

2 hours ago, Global said:

Whilst I wasn’t going to be buying these now because they are out of my era, having changed from modern to late 80s I probably was considering them when announced! 
 

I get how disappointing this is - it was the one thing that really bugged me with my fleet of 66s before I sold them. 
 

I can’t see how they can’t get this right, it can’t be a space issue as surely it’s an led and a bit of wire?! 
 

Personally if for whatever strange reason they can only do two lights I’d have rather had markers and one headlight, rather than the day/night headlight option, at least then you’d have the prototypical triangle of lights. 

 

I'm upgrading a few of my Bachmann 66s, as they will run alongside Hattons locos and the missing point of the triangle is now far too obvious to ignore.

 

I converted a couple of 20s to 20/3s nearly 15 years ago - whilst they didn't have inner end working Wipacs, the cab ends had 3 LEDs in each Wipac housing.

Jack374 has done a 20/3 with working Wipacs on the inner end. (Pic by Jack374)

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by newbryford

[TomScrut]

4 hours ago, sanspareil said:

Not the only brand making current release compromises - of course Realtrack have just used painted markers on their wipac 156s due to costs at the point of manufacture. Look pretty dire and enough to put me off purchase.

 

I think it's a bit unfair to compare making a compromise to avoid a tooling mod, to compromising a brand new from the ground up model!

[25901]

7 hours ago, scottrains29 said:

I guess it leaves the door open for the ultimate 20/3 from another manufacturer!

Lets think, who is doing EE locos and a few wagons that would go with a DRS 20/3.

Nobody comes to mind so I better go from A to Z. A, that was quick lol

[lwnameplates]

26 minutes ago, 25901 said:

Lets think, who is doing EE locos and a few wagons that would go with a DRS 20/3.

Nobody comes to mind so I better go from A to Z. A, that was quick lol

but is there a large enough market for two people making 20/3s, i did have these on order but decided to cancel after finding out about the lights.

i always used to rate Bachmann but since getting back into it I'm quiet disappointed how little has changed on there part.

[adb968008]

I’m still thinking these are going to disappear.

 

You need at least two, to make a pair of twenties, if modelling DRS 2020, you need 5 to make a working pair.

 

Ive already a cunning plan and a scalpel ready for 2 of mine... 

Edited January 28, 2021 by adb968008

[SouthernMafia]

That is disappointing news on the marker lights, I was going to order a pair but will probably just get one now.

One positive though is I'll only need to modify one end (cab end) since it will never run bonnet first and so I'll likely completely disable the lights at t'other end.

[KDG]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’m still thinking these are going to disappear.

 

You need at least two, to make a pair of twenties, if modelling DRS 2020, you need 5 to make a working pair.

 

Ive already a cunning plan and a scalpel ready for 2 of mine... 

I think you're right, they'll be hoovered (should that be choppered) up, anything new DRS does, and there's the class 20 and RHTT factor too.

 

We shouldn't be surprised about the lack of working marker lights though, Bachmann have stated this right from the start. I commented on it way back in the thread.  Bachmann will make a far better job of a 20/3 than I can, so I'll stick with my pre ordered pair too.

[AY Mod]

7 hours ago, KDG said:

We shouldn't be surprised about the lack of working marker lights though, Bachmann have stated this right from the start.

 

I wish more people had taken note of that. I have discussed the issue with Richard at Bachmann today and these are the comments.

 

Quote

Whilst consumers can be confident that Bachmann products will always be of the highest fidelity, due to manufacturing constraints it was not possible to incorporate working marker lights into the forthcoming Bachmann Branchline Class 20/3 diesel locomotives. In particular, this is due to the location of the lighting cluster at the front of the locomotive which is mounted on the bufferbeam, in OO scale this arrangement does not provide adequate space to accommodate the necessary components needed to provide three separate working lights in such an awkward position. During the development of the Branchline model, we experimented with several concepts, however where we were able to achieve three working lights these solutions 1. Did not meet our high standards - the light bleed from one light to another was unacceptable and 2. Were not scalable to allow consistent production which would meet our exacting quality control measures over a production run of several thousand models.

 

With this constraint confirmed, we then looked at the other end of the model, where it would be possible to fit three separate working lights. After careful consideration, we made the decision to omit the marker lights at this end in order to provide a product with a consistent specification. Whilst some will say this is the right decision, others may say it was the wrong decision, however we often have to make hard decisions but that is just one aspect of running a business like ours. Thankfully, the Bachmann Europe team is made up of a group of skilled and passionate individuals who work together with our colleagues at Kader to create our Award Winning products and it is their job to make hard decisions like these, and they have our full support in doing so.

 

Naturally, any feature that is incorporated into a product of this nature must be scalable for manufacturing purposes, providing a consistent product to a consistent specification. It is easy to incorporate novel features into a product, but these must not detract from our key values of high quality, high fidelity and reliable products, backed up by aftersales support from our Service Department, these values provide consumers with products that they can enjoy for many years to come. The end product must also be commercially viable, after all we will have invested a six figure sum without any return before we get to the point of selling the first model. These sales are of course all via our network of stockists, who we have proudly supported for more than thirty years and whose viability we do not undermine by selling direct – our products must be commercially viable for our stockists too, and provide proper commercial margins in order for their businesses to prosper

 

[adb968008]

Mine are never going to run nose first, so those lights dont matter.

 

indeed my cunning plan is to remove some of the lights !

 

 

 

;-)

Edited May 16, 2021 by adb968008

[Roy Langridge]

13 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

I wish more people had taken note of that. I have discussed the issue with Richard at Bachmann today and these are the comments.

 

 

Andy, I had seen that there were to be no marker lights at the *front* of the loco.  I do not recall that Bachmann had ever said there would be none at the cab end.
 

Given these run cab first 99% of the time, the non provision at the nose end was disappointing, but acceptable. Non-provision at the cab end, especially if only to be consistent, is more than disappointing...

 

Roy

[Global]

That does seem a bit like a party political by the Bachmann Party!

 

Whatever the reasons, and I still find them a bit dubious as if you can fit working lights in something as small as N gauge I’m sure there must be a work around, I find that swipe at other manufacturers selling direct to consumers a bit cheap. 
 

So is Bachmann saying the justification for inferior models is that they are supporting retailers?! 
 

My view would be get the model right and it will sell, and if you can’t leave it to a manufacturer who can - regardless of how they sell it! 

 

There are some excellent shops out there and they’ll survive because they’re good at what they do and customers will come back. There are also some horrors that I wouldn’t miss at all. 
 

That statement has all the hallmarks of a company that is slightly deluded and thinks that they are a lot better than they actually are, lacking the ability to step outside and look back in to see your own faults - a very dangerous place to be in business. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Global

[sanspareil]

Omission in this day and age of basic marker lights on a brand new top price model where the likes of Acurascale are setting incredible standards at similar cost is poor really. You can understand the omission at bonnet end, sure, but at the cab end they have confirmed the omissions is all but commercial rather than technical. I think for those that dont keep abreast of the developments (and the likes of this forum) there are going to be a  number of disappointed customers with a 2021 model at top spec prices (£165 RRP).

 

What I find interesting is that two reviews I have seen of the 20/3s dont mention the lack of markers! Sure for some it wont matter but for others it will and a review is a review. To not to at least mention this in a review is a little sloppy in my view.

 

PS Hornby mag have confirmed to me that their review loco didnt have working markers (as we know), so their image on the cover of their magazine was (likely) doctored or the loco modified. This will only further mislead, especially as the review makes no mention of the lack of markers.

Edited January 30, 2021 by sanspareil

[TomScrut]

2 hours ago, Global said:

So is Bachmann saying the justification for inferior models is that they are supporting retailers?! 

 

If that is the case then it's a difficult one. The model needs to be saleable for anybody to make money.

 

But we do tend to let the manufacturers get away with these things because having a compromised model is better than having no model at all. It's only when there's people on the fence such as myself (in the case of 20/3s) that it sends the decision one direction, but the amounts they have made may make people like me irrelevant. Exactly the same as the Hornby GBRF 50s, if they had got the colour right I'd almost certainly have had both, they still sold out without me having to buy one of each.

 

2 hours ago, Global said:

I find that swipe at other manufacturers selling direct to consumers a bit cheap. 

 

I don't know the terms of what dealers get vs how the money from selling direct is handled, but if those direct sales aid in the viability of a product then that indirectly aids dealers by giving them something to sell they might not in other circumstances. I doubt the manufacturers who sell direct are using the extra cash to fill swimming pools.

 

2 hours ago, Global said:

My view would be get the model right and it will sell, and if you can’t leave it to a manufacturer who can - regardless of how they sell it! 

 

That's a very difficult one especially in the context of lighting because some people don't regard lighting as important (and therefore prototypical use of lighting, such as markers, is not important either).

 

The main issue then would be the balance of price vs perfection. I'd rather a model be a bit more expensive and be right, BUT I'd be less likely to buy stuff I don't regard as must haves because I don't have a bottomless pit of money unfortunately. Some others (who already complain about prices) would rather it was cheaper and either an approximation of the target material or they'd finish it off themselves.

 

It is a balance and one I'm sure is a big challenge for all the manufacturers whatever terms they have with dealers and factories.

Edited January 30, 2021 by TomScrut

[adb968008]

Oh so hang on... i missed that ?

 

it doesnt have any working lights ?

 

Thats very gauche if true ? Surely not ?

Edited January 30, 2021 by adb968008

[TomScrut]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

Oh so hang on... i missed that ?

 

it doesnt have any working lights ?

 

Thats very gauche if true ? Surely not ?

 

It doesn't have working marker lights. Headlights and tails yes, markers no.

[adb968008]

4 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

It doesn't have working marker lights. Headlights and tails yes, markers no.

Oh thats not too bad, several models have issues around lights.. Hattons 66, 156 they arent perfect when it comes to lights.

[letterspider]

I can't remember my Hornby Class 60 having problems with its marker lights and that is a really old model.

 

[TomScrut]

11 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Hattons 66, 156

 

Specific sub models, not all of them.

[adb968008]

9 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

Specific sub models, not all of them.

Class 20/3 is a sub model... theres 228 class 20’s.

 

i’m still running Lima ones, they werent that bad, indeed for haulage power its up at the top.

Edited January 30, 2021 by adb968008