A few questions from a newbie

[niteshadex]

Hi, i've been modelling in OO and HO scale for many years but still im somewhat of a newbie, so i have few newbie questions to ask...

 

1- Why do RTR wagons have larger 12.6mm wheels but wagon kits use smaller 12mm wheels?  And which are accurately scaled?

 

2-Does every vacuum fitted wagon have that round hose on its bufferbeams?

 

3-Is there anything you can do to fill in that gap on switchpoint tracks? I am having some derailment issues.

 

4-What were the SNCF-type 16t steel mineral wagons used for?  They only had those cupboard style doors.

 

5-Were brake coaches only used at the front and end of the rake?

 

6-And finally.... i am looking for rare and hard to find 4mm wagon kits.  Are there any other makers other than Parkside, Cambrian, Slaters, Dapol, Mousa, and 51L?

 

Thanks

Anthony

[Kris]

Brake coaches could be found elsewhere in the rake. With trains that split on route you would find at least 1 brake vehicle per section. 

[Phil Bullock]

3 minutes ago, Kris said:

Brake coaches could be found elsewhere in the rake. With trains that split on route you would find at least 1 brake vehicle per section. 

 

Cotswold lines always had brake 3rd vehicle in 7/8 coach rake on down journey - front 3 continued to Hereford.

 

Wagon kits? Add Red Panda

[niteshadex]

Just now, Phil Bullock said:

 

Cotswold lines always had brake 3rd vehicle in 7/8 coach rake on down journey - front 3 continued to Hereford.

 

Wagon kits? Add Red Panda

Oh yes i think Red Panda makes the BR plywood shoc-van.  I loveeee Red Panda's underframe kit.  It is so customizable you can make it fit almost any 10-foot and 9-foot WB wagon.

[The Johnster]

Q1.  RTR wagon wheels should be 12mm; some older ones from Triang 

and Triang Hornby have coarser scale flanges.  Coach wheels are 14mm. 
 

Q2.  Yes.  The vacuum brake is worked by a valve on the loco (and the brake van if necessary) and the hose is needed to couple the brake on each vehicle so that the driver can operate all the vacuum brakes on the train.  Passenger coaches have a similar setup for steam heating. 
 

Q3.  No.  If you are having derailments the cause may be that you have not laid the track smooth and level, vital at turnouts, or that some of your stock has older unsuitable wheels (see Q1), or that the curve is sharper than the stock is designed to go through (minimum recommended radius is stated on RTR boxes), or that the back to back measurement between the back faces of the wheels on the axle needs adjusting. 
 

Q4.  The SNCF ‘cupboard door’ 16ton minerals were built in the UK for service in France following the liberation of that country in 1944, the French being used to mineral wagons with this type of door and specifying them.  The idea was to replace the many French coal wagons destroyed or pinched by the Germans during the occupation. Some time later, 1950 IIRC, when the SNCF. had built sufficient modern air braked minerals of their own, these wagons were repatriated to the UK where a program of replacing older wooden bodied minerals with steel was in full swing.  They were used in both countries for coal traffic
 

They were very unpopular with coal merchants and could not be end tipped into ships at the ports, and had been all scrapped by the mid 60s, but the ‘price was right’. 
 

Q5.  Brake coaches were traditionally positioned at the rear of trains where the guard could apply the handbrake to keep couplings taut, but the introduction of vacuum brakes meant that this was no longer necessary for operational reasons.  It was at one time considered desirable to have a brake at the front as well as a safety feature in collisions.  Stations became laid out so that parcels snd mail loading and unloading needed the brake van to continue to be in such positions, and for many years there was a limit of 2 vehicles allowed behind the rear van.  Where trains were split or slipped into portions, each portion had to have it’s own brake van.  Some shorter branch line trains had the brake in the middle, handy for the station buildings of small country stations. 
 

Q6. Include Airfix/Dapol/Kitmaster plastic kits, been around since god was in short trews but good kits at a reasonable price.  ‘Bay might turn up Peco ‘Wonderful Wagons’ kits and K’s (N&C Keyser) used to produce cast whitemetal wagon kits as well. 

 

[Nick Holliday]

10 hours ago, niteshadex said:

Hi, i've been modelling in OO and HO scale for many years but still im somewhat of a newbie, so i have few newbie questions to ask...

 

6-And finally.... i am looking for rare and hard to find 4mm wagon kits.  Are there any other makers other than Parkside, Cambrian, Slaters, Dapol, Mousa, and 51L?

 

Thanks

Anthony

I take it you mean current suppliers, as there have been dozens of makers who, for various reasons have ceased trading, and many of their products are "rare and hard to find", just see comments about the prices D&S kits can command on eBay!

Several of the etched kit makers, more known for their coaches and/or locos, have a few wagon kits in their ranges. Try Roxey Mouldings, London Road Models, Brassmasters, Radley, NB Models, Prickley Pear, RT Models and Caley Coaches, for example. Lochgorm also had some wagons but, following the death of the proprietor, the situation isn't quite clear yet.

In the R&HTF tray, getting items from Coopercraft (plastic), ABS (white metal) and Peter K (etched brass) can be fraught with challenges, for various reasons, see various threads here, but they offer some useful wagons, if you can only get your hands on them!  You have been warned.

5&9 Models had a wide range of white metal kits, mainly LBSCR, and it may be worth contacting them to see what may be currently available. Smallbrook also have several LBSC resin cast wagons, many using Dapol RTR chassis to complete. Peco, I believe,  still do wagon kits, but perhaps limited to tankers, and SEFinecast have some wagon kits, dating back to the very early days  of 4mm kits, when they, as Robert Wills, were pioneering white metal kits alongside Keysers.

Gramodels have a good range of resin body castings, mainly LSWR in origin, but you may have to source various bits and pieces to complete them, while 3D printing, mainly at Shapeways, but see various threads here, such as Turbosnail's, for alternative suppliers, can offer a wide range of vehicles, often at a wide range of prices and level of completeness.

I think that may give you a few ideas! 

Depending on your interests it may be worth investigating some of the line societies, as they, from time to time, commission models that may be made available to non-members, such as the Caledonian Railway Association.

[Il Grifone]

Welcome to RMweb 

 

The wheel question is historical. Traditionally 'scale' (and Hornby Dublo) wheels were 12mm. However the prototype wheels were 3' 1" or 3' 2" in diameter when new. Wear could reduce this by up to 5". Thus they are both 'right'. Coach wheels nominally were usually 3' 7" but the same wear issue applies (more modern coaches have 3' wheels).

 

Derailments at points are a complex issue. There are several threads here about it. Basically the check gauge (back to back plus flange thickness) of all wheelsets has to be compatible with the track - less than the distance from the outer face of the check rail to the crossing nose. The flange gap is usually too generous and causes wheels to bump as they pass though. Partially filling the bottom of the gap will solve this, but relies on all the flanges being the same depth to work.

 

Brake coaches were usually at the ends of the train (the guard was supposed to travel at the end of the train), but one or two vehicles could be behind the brake van (possibly even fitted freight vehicles - I saw an open wagon once) and it is not inconceivable that one could have been used to replace a coach in the train depending on stock availability.

 

There have been many makes of wagon and coach kits that have disappeared from the  market (of variable quality). The Collectable/Vintage section here would be of help. K's kits provided many types of wagon but were not always cast well and assembly might give rise to problems. Peco kits (some are still avilable) consist of embossed card overlays on a metal body (early ones were wood) and provide a variety of P.O. liveries, but their body detail is not really up to modern standards. There were Wills kits (now available from S.E. Finecast) which were mainly obscure prototypes. Also the long standing Airfix kits (now Dapol) give an excellent 16T mineral (the brake gear needs attention), an obscure meat van (I saw one once!) and various more specialised wagons.

[niteshadex]

Just read all the replies, thanks alot for all this useful information.  I will also browse through the forums to gather as much information as possible

[DCB]

A few points,  1)  wheel tyres could be turned down to reprofile them to account for wear.  tread wear could make the fkanges too deep or flange wear could make them prone to split points and derail.  The only pointer as to how much they could be turned down before new tyres were fitted was The GWR turned a set of brand new Castle wheel tyres down from 6ft 8 1/2" to 6ft 6" as an experiment which was below the scrapping size, so perhaps 1" on tread or 2" diameter should be considered a minimum. In any case the smaller wheels should have noticeably thinner tyres.

2)  All vacuum brake wagons have that hose on the buffer beam or near the buffer beam, but so do some non fitted wagons wiit "Through Pipes" but no vacuum brakes. Brake  vans frequently had through pipes but no Vacuum cylinders only a very effective hand brake.

3)  Track gaps are a problem where a variety of wheel profiles run on the same track. Hornby Dublo had a properly designed system where the flange ran on the bottom of the  frog to ensure smooth running. If you have consistent wheel profiles you can pack the bottom of the frog gap to achieve this, but you will have to re wheel everything with the same profile wheels, and short of P4 that aint going to happen.

4) Pass

5) Brake coach.  Think of it as a Hand Brake Coach.  Before Vacuum brakes One was needed at each end of early trains, otherwise they had to shunt  it to the other end at a terminus and the rest of the coaches had to have their wheels spragged to stop them running away.   On expresses both front and rear brake coaches wee manned.

When Vacuum brakes came in the Brake Coach was needed when the train was uncoupled from the loco as the Vacuum inevitably leaks off and the brakes release, allowing the coaches to run away. The Brake coach has a Hand Brake to stop the train moving.    Following this it mattered little where the brake coach was in the train, but where a train divided it needed a Brake Coach in each portion, or the uncoupled section could run away. The GWR Loved Brake Composite coaches with Guard, 1st and 2nd (3rd/ standard/scum/cattle) class accommodation as one coach could provide all the different classes and a guard.  The LMS and LNER preferred Van 3rds with substantial luggage capacity, often marshalled at the ends of trains. By 1980s  BR seemed to prefer the Brake coach in the middle of loco hauled trains some having a Buffet replacing a seating bay on minor lines like Inverness Kye while expresses ran with a Full Brake at one end of Express Rakes, Later ones had a driving cab as well as DVTs

6) No idea,  They always fall apart when I build them so I end up re engineering the chassis or chucking away the chassis and sticking the body on an RTR chassis.  Its always good fun hooking a Coopercraft wagon between a Wrenn 8F and 20 heavy H/D wagons when visitors are around and watching it break in half.   Actually Peco wagons are OK some of mine are 50 plus years old.

[brossard]

AVB fitted and through piped wagons had the vacuum pipe under the buffer beam, like this:

 

 

This is one of those kits no longer made, and just as well.  I got it given and it was worth every penny.  This pic shows the brake arrangement.

 

It did scrub up nice though:

 

 

According to David Jenkinson, a rake of coaches could consist of a brake plus 8 axles trailing.  IOW, there didn't need to be a brake at the end of the train.

 

John

Edited March 19, 2020 by brossard

[The Johnster]

13 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

)  All vacuum brake wagons have that hose on the buffer beam or near the buffer beam, but so do some non fitted wagons wiit "Through Pipes" but no vacuum brakes. Brake  vans frequently had through pipes but no Vacuum cylinders only a very effective hand brake.

The pipe carrying the vacuum (if you can carry something that isn't there) is painted red on a vehicle fitted with the vacuum brake, that is, one that has a cylinder.  If it just a 'through pipe', as on a brake van and some other vehicles, it is painted white.  The vacuum hoses (we called them bags on the WR) are the same in each case, and the stop that they attach to when they are not connected to the next vehicle is always painted red.  Brake vans excepted, you would not normally have piped only vehicles at the rear of the train or the vacuum fitted section of it, not with the bags connected anyway.

 

With a brake van, the pipes are connected so that the guard can read the vacuum gauge in the van.

[Steamport Southport]

Here's some ex SNCF mineral wagons. They seemed to be popular for internal user wagons at power stations and steel works.

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brsncfmineral

 

 

Jason

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The pipe carrying the vacuum (if you can carry something that isn't there) ...

'communicating'

[Il Grifone]

"Guard, 1st and 2nd (3rd/ standard/scum/cattle)" 

 

Wagons shouldn't break in half. The Prototype (sometimes) had through drawgear so that the draught forces were applied through the rear headstock so each wagon was effectively pushed individually. My vehicles with 3 link/screw couplings are built this way with a spring linking the couplings. Auto couplings (Kadee, Peco/HD, Continental loop*) are fixed to the floor which should be strong enough to resist the loading.

 

* Do these things have a name (apart from the Australian 'dunny seat'     )  (They work well unless you try to mix makes.)

[mkrob]

I've been in this hobby a few years now, but whats this thing about No.1 & No.2 ends of a Diesel locomotive & how do you tell the difference? 

[jpendle]

1 hour ago, mkrob said:

I've been in this hobby a few years now, but whats this thing about No.1 & No.2 ends of a Diesel locomotive & how do you tell the difference? 

 

It's easy on a Class20 or Class 08. The Class68 has numbers on the cab doors.

 

I believe on the Clas66 the drivers cabs are different, but I don't know what the differences are.

 

There are plenty on here who will know though.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[smokebox]

In general the number 1 end is at the same end as the cooler group (cooling radiators).  There are exceptions.

[mkrob]

4 hours ago, mkrob said:

I've been in this hobby a few years now, but whats this thing about No.1 & No.2 ends of a Diesel locomotive & how do you tell the difference? 

I forgot to ask, why is there a No.1 & No.2 end, as with say Class 37, one end looks the same as the other! Why don't they call it the end where the cooling radiator is, instead of the No1 end?

[The Johnster]

Because it's easier to say 'no.1 end' or 'no.2 end' than 'the end with the cooling radiator' or 'the end without the cooling radiator'.  

 

It is sometimes necessary to indicate which end of the loco you mean, for example reporting defective windscreen wipers in the repair book.  It's no good saying 'leading end cab' or 'trailing end cab', the fitter doesn't know which end was leading when you made the report.  The ends are sometimes 'A' or 'B' rather than 1 and 2, and are indicated in the cab, usually on the inside dome roof above the windows.  

[mkrob]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Because it's easier to say 'no.1 end' or 'no.2 end' than 'the end with the cooling radiator' or 'the end without the cooling radiator'.  

 

It is sometimes necessary to indicate which end of the loco you mean, for example reporting defective windscreen wipers in the repair book.  It's no good saying 'leading end cab' or 'trailing end cab', the fitter doesn't know which end was leading when you made the report.  The ends are sometimes 'A' or 'B' rather than 1 and 2, and are indicated in the cab, usually on the inside dome roof above the windows.  

Thanks Johnster, that makes sense!

Edited March 22, 2020 by mkrob
error

[The Johnster]

Good grief!  That's unusual for me...