What coal trains existed in the south west?

[MonsalDan]

Hello,

I'm researching the railways of the 30s in Devon, primarily the GWR, although the Southern does interest me as well.  I was under the impression that coal was transferred to Kingswear from South Wales via ferry.  However, in the book "The Great Western in South Devon" by Beck and Copsey there is a South Wales Coal Train pictured on page 82 at Exeter St Davids.  Does anyone know specifically where it was going to, or any further details on it?  The only coal train I can find in a working timetable was a Loco coal train, and presumably that wouldn't have been full of PO wagons, but Loco coal wagons.

As a side note, on pages 80/81, there is a picture of Newton Abbot Engine Shed in the early 20s.  This features a few wagons from various Railway companies, including an LNWR Loco coal wagon, does anyone know why these would have been there when the coal arrived into Devon via Kingswear?

Any information, or if you can recommend any further sources is greatly appreciated.

 

[TomJ]

AFAIK the coal landed at Kingswear was just for Torquay gasworks. I started a thread in the Railways of Devon section about it. I believe it came from Yorkshire rather than South Wales. I guess there must have been coal trains to the other locations in the South West

[Fat Controller]

The coal that arrived at Kingswear was for a local gas works. 

Some coal from South Wales would have arrived by sea ; there were regular sailings between Burry Port, Llanelli and Swansea and ports in North Devon. These would sail northwards carrying metal ores, returning with coal. It's how one part of my family arrived in Burry Port.

There would still have been rail deliveries of both loco coal and domestic coal, mainly from South Wales, but also from the Somerset Coalfield and possibly elsewhere.

[Siberian Snooper]

There were coal wharves at Coxside, Plymouth. The adjacent site is the car park for the National Marine Aquarium. The railway that seved them is now part of Gdynia Way, the main route into the city from the East.

 

[Nearholmer]

The Lynton & Barnstaple Railway carried coal from the wharf at Barnstaple.

 

This mix of some sea-borne and some rail-borne transport of coal from pits to ‘distribution nodes’, followed by local distribution by rail or by river barges, was common all round the coast from at least East Anglia to Cornwall (I don’t know about further north), and London received about a third of its coal by water.

[Compound2632]

A bit of "theory". The method of shipping might well depend on the type of coal. Customers needing steam coal from the eastern valleys or anthracite (e.g. for brewing) from the western valleys could well be receiving it by sea, since the South Wales coalfield was set up for shipping. Much gas coal came from the east Midlands and south Yorkshire, landlocked coalfields from which one might suppose rail to be more efficient. So I'm curious about gas coal being received by sea at Kingswear - where was it coming from?

[Nearholmer]

Could it have come all the way from the NE?

 

That was where the huge gas works in East London were supplied from I think.

 

Does seem a very long way though, so maybe some off-beat place like the Forest of Dean or West Cumbria?

 

Pity I got rid of my “British Coal” textbook, which told you all this stuff, plus ash content, heat yield in BThU etc.!

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Nearholmer

[TomJ]

Here's a link to the thread I started earlier about the coal traffic from Kingswear. It might be useful

[meil]

There was coal traffic from the Somerset Coal field. I assume Somerset is in the south west?

Edited April 28, 2020 by meil

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

A bit of "theory". The method of shipping might well depend on the type of coal. Customers needing steam coal from the eastern valleys or anthracite (e.g. for brewing) from the western valleys could well be receiving it by sea, since the South Wales coalfield was set up for shipping. Much gas coal came from the east Midlands and south Yorkshire, landlocked coalfields from which one might suppose rail to be more efficient. So I'm curious about gas coal being received by sea at Kingswear - where was it coming from?

 

A lot of Yorkshire Coal was sent to Goole to be shipped so its quite possible it was sent via that means rather than by a train across the whole country.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

A lot of Yorkshire Coal was sent to Goole to be shipped so its quite possible it was sent via that means rather than by a train across the whole country.

 

This post agrees with you:

I suppose that once the coal was in the collier, it didn't matter much how far round the coast it came as it wasn't exactly a perishable cargo. The economic balance would be in the relative costs of the round trip by sea and by rail. The return journey by rail would be empty; maybe the ship could find a return cargo?

 

[Aire Head]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This post agrees with you:

I suppose that once the coal was in the collier, it didn't matter much how far round the coast it came as it wasn't exactly a perishable cargo. The economic balance would be in the relative costs of the round trip by sea and by rail. The return journey by rail would be empty; maybe the ship could find a return cargo?

 

 

Possibly economics if speed come into it too I expect. A coal train would probably takes a long tine to get to the south coast wheras a ship is probably quicker.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, meil said:

There was coal traffic from the Somerset Coal field. I assume Somerset is in the south west?

It was when my family left.

[Penlan]

2 hours ago, meil said:

There was coal traffic from the Somerset Coal field. I assume Somerset is in the south west?

Not if you live in west Cornwall 

[Rivercider]

Loco coal from South Wales for Southern Railway depots in the South West was landed at Fremington.

Exmouth was another dock where coal was unloaded, presumably for local coal merchants in the Exeter and Exmouth area. Edit - The gantries here were installed in 1933 and two grabs could unload two colliers simultaneously, all of Exmouths coal was supplied this way.

 

Edit - Newton Abbot power station received coal by rail, as well as via barge, where would that have come from?

 

cheers

Edited April 28, 2020 by Rivercider
Additional info

[johnofwessex]

5 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

Loco coal from South Wales for Southern Railway depots in the South West was landed at Fremington.

Exmouth was another dock where coal was unloaded, presumably for local coal merchants in the Exeter and Exmouth area.

 

Edit - Newton Abbot power station received coal by rail, as well as via barge, where would that have come from?

 

cheers

 

I suspect that the barges were taking coal from ships at Teignmouth

[gwrrob]

I have a late '40s timetable that has a working from Laira to Rogerstone returning coal empties and also to Tavistock Junction from Severn Tunnel on a down freight and coal service, usually pulled by a Hall.

[wagonman]

9 hours ago, meil said:

There was coal traffic from the Somerset Coal field. I assume Somerset is in the south west?

 

It is if you live anywhere to the east of Somerset! There is a well-known photo of a New Rock Colliery wagon at Bodmin General in c1926, so yes there was some traffic that way. Also inbox the photo were English China Clay   coal wagons and several from local factors Renwick Wilton & Co who could have obtained their cola from just about anywhere.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, wagonman said:

could have obtained their cola from just about anywhere.

 

Well, coke is a whole 'nother traffic to consider. 

[wagonman]

Other Colas are available ...

[Oldddudders]

Colas is quite a big firm around here, but everyone burns wood. 

[Mallard60022]

Exmouth Junction had a large Coal Concentration Depot in the 70s; that's all I know really. Apologies it isn't 30s or GWR.

 

P

Edited April 29, 2020 by Mallard60022

[coline33]

Do not forget the coal traffic to the china/ball clay industries, it did not all come in by sea.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, coline33 said:

Do not forget the coal traffic to the china/ball clay industries, it did not all come in by sea.

 

What type of coal did the china clay industry use and from which coalfields was it procured?

[coline33]

The coal was basically steam for the boilers and domestic for heating.   The largest company ECCI had their own power station central to serving all their Cornwall sites including port installations.   So whereas steam coal was in the 19th and early half 20th centuries brought from South Wales to Newquay and Charlestown and railed to the various sites owned by the then individual companies, gradually with amalgamation of companies, centralisation grew under ECC/ECCI and it developed its own large fleet of PO's just for coal (painted grey) as well as its large fleet of PO's just for clay (painted red) to avoid contamination of the clay.   Naturally coal was also delivered by 'mainline company' and then BR wagons - BR of course took over the ECCI POs renumbering them in the P-series although some wagons taken over from other private clay companies have been found to keep their original numbers presumably as they were only fit for scrap!!!   Photos of ECCI's coal wagons have been taken on LNER/BR(E) lines as well as GWR/BR(W) lines.   ECCI also had china clay works and pits in south Devon.   Ball clay operations were to be found in north Devon and in Dorset.   Hope this 'bones' reply helps.