What did the "Great " in Railway Co names refer to?

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The Midland was by far the biggest railway at the grouping, but nowhere could you say it had complete dominance over an area; 

You will seriously upset Premier Line aficionados.

 

Of the pre-grouping "big four" - LNWR, Midland, Great Western, North Eastern - each comes out on top in one one category or another but overall the LNWR has to be considered the biggest. For example, it was the second largest employer in the country, after the GPO. The LNWR and Midland were the only two to be genuinely national in reach and were the only two to have lines in all four countries of the British isles; the Great Western and North Eastern were regional, albeit dominant in their region - the GW less so than the NE.

 

But as you say, the Midland, given its central position, was completely dominant no-where. In fact it pretty much reached all the same major industrial areas the LNWR did, taking into account its share of the Cheshire Lines. Maybe only South Yorkshire was out of the LNWR's range but there the Midland was head-to-head with the MS&L / GC.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Compound2632

[The Johnster]

The LNWR, by reason of it's associations with Canadian Pacific, could book you from Euston to Hong Kong via CP's steamships and railway.  The GW always intended to reach New York, but couldn't book you from Paddington much beyond Cork.  The SECR could get you to Istanbul.  I think the best the Midland could do was Drogheda.

[Edwin_m]

59 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The Midland was by far the biggest railway at the grouping, but nowhere could you say it had complete dominance over an area; even at Derby, the heart of the network, the GN penetrated.  The GW had southern and northern flanks, where it rubbed up against the LSW and LNW, but other lines within that triangle were small and local, notwithstanding that some of the South Wales ones were intensively operated and more profitable.  The Taff Vale had seniority at Cardiff, which it reached 12 years before the GW sponsored SWR.  

The Midland linking Birmingham to Bristol and Bath was a main line in the heart of GWR territory.  The GWR itself couldn't run direct between Bristol and Birmingham without recourse to running powers.  

 

I'd say the closes to a local monopoly was the North Eastern.  

Edited May 9, 2020 by Edwin_m

[phil_sutters]

The S&D could sell you a ticket from Highbridge (S&D) to Caen, return 2nd class, for 43s 6d and Paris for 63s in 1865. Their advert doesn't quote fares beyond Paris, but talks about 'New & cheap route to Paris, Bordeaux and the South of france, via Poole, Cherbourg and Caen'. That ambitious service didn't last a couple of years.

[The Johnster]

The Barry could do this from Cardiff, using their own steamers from Barry to Highbridge.  For some tides, this was the fastest route from Cardiff to Paris, but it sounds like a bit of an ordeal!  This was some 30 years later.  

Edited May 9, 2020 by The Johnster

[caradoc]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The problem is the lesser company would then be getting all the credit rather than The Premier Line....

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Like it ! However the Midland had no need to use Great, Premier, or any other superlative to advertise its superiority.........

[Compound2632]

Just now, caradoc said:

 

Like it ! However the Midland had no need to use Great, Premier, or any other superlative to advertise its superiority.........

 

"The Best Route". 

 

 

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

You will seriously upset Premier Line aficionados.

 

Of the pre-grouping "big four" - LNWR, Midland, Great Western, North Eastern - each comes out on top in one one category or another but overall the LNWR has to be considered the biggest. For example, it was the second largest employer in the country, after the GPO. The LNWR and Midland were the only two to be genuinely national in reach and were the only two to have lines in all four countries of the British isles; the Great Western and North Eastern were regional, albeit dominant in their region - the GW less so than the NE.

 

But as you say, the Midland, given its central position, was completely dominant no-where. In fact it pretty much reached all the same major industrial areas the LNWR did, taking into account its share of the Cheshire Lines. Maybe only South Yorkshire was out of the LNWR's range but there the Midland was head-to-head with the MS&L / GC.

 

The LNWR had a loco shed at Doncaster and a goods yard in Sheffield, there were probably other places I don't recall. So even South Yorkshire wasn't safe.

[Steamport Southport]

39 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

Like it ! However the Midland had no need to use Great, Premier, or any other superlative to advertise its superiority.........

 

Just needed multiple locomotives to pull a tiny train....

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

51 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Just needed multiple locomotives to pull a tiny train....

 

 

I can't be bothered to go round this one again. 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

The LNWR had a loco shed at Doncaster and a goods yard in Sheffield, there were probably other places I don't recall. So even South Yorkshire wasn't safe.

Not to mention a goods shed on Cardiff docks, worked by a loco outstationed at the Rhymney’s East Dock shed.  This was a Webb 0-6-0T and named ‘Earl of Dumfries’, one of the titles of Lord Bute.  The Midland never had any presence in Cardiff. 

Edited May 9, 2020 by The Johnster

[Compound2632]

45 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The Midland never had any presence in Cardiff. 

 

Passengers were routed via the Great Western from Gloucester. Not no presence, no. There was a goods and passenger agent for Cardiff Docks, in 1903 Mr T.C. Parker, address 133 Bute Road. 

[Welchester]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Not to mention a goods shed on Cardiff docks, worked by a loco outstationed at the Rhymney’s East Dock shed.  This was a Webb 0-6-0T and named ‘Earl of Dumfries’, one of the titles of Lord Bute.  The Midland never had any presence in Cardiff. 

 

Is that why valleys towns had a Dumfries (rhymes with Humphries) Street? I often wondered about that.

[The Johnster]

Spot on, your reverence.  The Bute family were major player in the area, owning Cardiff Castle, funding the building of the first two docks in the town, as it was then, and having major coal mining interests in the Valleys.  Interestingly, when Royal visits to the area took place pre war, and the monarch or prince or whoever it was had to stay overnight, they stayed with the Lord Lieutenant of the County of Glamorgan at Coedrhydaryglyn, his estate in the Vale of Glamorgan.  Cardiffians that this is because the Butes sided with the Bonnie Prince in the 1745 Rebellion.  The Royals have long memories and do not forgive readily...

 

The Butes, or Crichton-Stuarts, have been commemorated in several areas of Cardiffs' street names, and of course Bute Street, Road, Terrace etc.  There are areas of villages or town street names that the family own in Scotland, areas of the names of their sons and daughters, and so on.  

Edited May 9, 2020 by The Johnster

[pete_mcfarlane]

The 'Midland Railway' was about the least suitable name possible for a railway that eventually served Tilbury, Carlisle and Londonderry.  

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

The 'Midland Railway' was about the least suitable name possible for a railway that eventually served Tilbury, Carlisle and Londonderry.  

 

Oh, I don't know. I'm sure there are those who would think "Great Northern" was inapt for a railway that got no further north than the West Riding.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Compound2632

[chris p bacon]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Oh, I don't know. I'm sure there are those who would think "Great Northern" was inapt for a railway that got no further north than the West Riding.

 

But the main promoters were from Yorkshire.....and in Yorkshire thinking is there anything worth bothering with outside of the county 

 

We do have a joke that the GN finished in a ploughed field just North of Doncaster.

[Andy Kirkham]

14 hours ago, Bishop of Welchester said:

 

Is that why valleys towns had a Dumfries (rhymes with Humphries) Street? I often wondered about that.

 

In Scotland there is a Dumfries House, located not at Dumfries but near Cumnock (at least it is on the same railway route), another residence of the Bute family and named after the Earl of Dumfries. Until 1949 it was served by a railway station named Dumfries House https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/D/Dumfries_House/

 

Dumfries House. April 17 2009. by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

[tomparryharry]

As others have said, the original prospectus of the Western was to link London, Bristol, and the Americas. At that time Great was entirely apt. No-one had done that before.  I often wonder if the Western had amalgamated with the Great Central, what would have ensued?  High-speed Kings to Sheffield, perhaps....

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

I often wonder if the Western had amalgamated with the Great Central, what would have ensued?  

 

Deeply unhappy Great Western shareholders, I should think.

[tomparryharry]

27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Deeply unhappy Great Western shareholders, I should think.

 

Sorry Stephen, I slightly disagree. The Western would have the possibility to reach all of the GC destinations, and (through) Marylebone, a second London termini.The Central already worked down to Banbury, so it's not too far fetched to see Central locomotives gracing Southampton. 

 

I'm dyed in the wool Western, but the wanton destruction of the Central is a travesty. 

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Sorry Stephen, I slightly disagree. The Western would have the possibility to reach all of the GC destinations, and (through) Marylebone, a second London termini.The Central already worked down to Banbury, so it's not too far fetched to see Central locomotives gracing Southampton. 

 

I'm dyed in the wool Western, but the wanton destruction of the Central is a travesty. 

 

It seems to me that the Great Western had all the advantages of collaboration with the Great Central as things stood, without taking on the Great Central's financial liabilities. On the other hand, it might have been a good deal better for the LNER if at grouping the Great Central had been divided, with the London Extension going to the Great Western and the old MS&L lines to the LNER. But I'm not at all sure how the financial liabilities would have been divvied up. 

 

Remember:

MS&L = Money Sunk & Lost

GC = Gone Completely.

 

Still, it might have been interesting if J.G. Robinson had become CME of a combined Central & Western, rather than C.B. Collett.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Compound2632

[kevinlms]

On 10/05/2020 at 01:40, Edwin_m said:

  The GWR itself couldn't run direct between Bristol and Birmingham without recourse to running powers.  

 

Rightly so, because the LNWR made sure that none of that Broad Gauge nonsense, made it to Birmingham Curzon St/New Street!

 

IIRC, the LNWR had no break of gauge station with the GWR. It was left to the Midland to mess about with such frivolous transhipment of goods.

 

https://www.ssplprints.com/image/107605/break-of-gauge-gloucester-june-1846

 

OK, I realise that this painting was an exaggeration, but still why bother with it, if you can avoid it?

[The Johnster]

Not much of an exaggeration...  Oxford was just as bad.