Triang Blue Pullman - donor coaches/improvements - resource listing (page 3)

[MJI]

There is also resin casting available take a mould of a Kitmaster side frame and produce your own.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

CJL of Model Rail and this group, plus Genesis Kits, produced these bogies at one time.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

That reminds me Chris (I think)  did an article on building a set with good quality drawings as well. It was in one of the very early issues of Model Rail.

 

Issue 13 November 1999.

 

Blue Pullman means business

Blue Pullman DMUs - history, livery, photos & models. Includes how to improve the Hornby models. 

 

 

Jason

Edited June 16, 2020 by Steamport Southport

[SteveyDee68]

On 15/06/2020 at 23:29, cypherman said:

Hi Stevey,

Here are 2 coaches for sale on Ebay at the moment. They have just under 2 days to go and are currently at £25.99.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-Tri-ang-Hornby-R426-Blue-Pullman-Parlour-Cars-W60745-Coach-Carriage/402288072879?hash=item5daa3cd8af:g:pMsAAOSwWPle3UQu

 

Sold for £40 for the pair, although one had a missing window strip!  Still, as another seller is asking for £40 for a single coach... I suppose that was a bargain!!

 

Steve S

Edited June 24, 2020 by SteveyDee68
Completed missing part of sentence!

[SteveyDee68]

Now here's a quandary...

 

How much should a six car Triang Blue Pullman sell for?  One that has the correct restaurant cars, but requires restoration?  I have four power cars (two powered, two dummies) and a coach, and Gibbo's cut and shut restaurant car instructions, so currently have the werewithall to have a two power car and two restaurant car formation...

 

Do I (a) continue to search for coaches or (b) splash out on a set which has had the majority of the work already done?

 

Steve S

[Gibbo675]

2 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

Now here's a quandary...

 

How much should a six car Triang Blue Pullman sell for?  One that has the correct restaurant cars, but requires restoration?  I have four power cars (two powered, two dummies) and a coach, and Gibbo's cut and shut restaurant car instructions, so currently have the werewithall to have a two power car and two restaurant car formation...

 

Do I (a) continue to search for coaches or (b) splash out on a set which has had the majority of the work already done?

 

Steve S

Hi Steve,

 

Go cut and shut mad ! I love it and build all sorts of stuff that way form Mk1's to Pullman car variations. One note of caution, the power cars and saloon cars are a different width which has to accounted for by cutting the wider coach bit down the middle of the roof and rejoining it. If I remember it is by about the kerf of a hacksaw blade which makes life easy-ish, it all adds to the fun though.

 

While building the kitchen cars you will have plenty of time to search out a couple of bargain coaches to finish the job.

 

Gibbo.

[SteveyDee68]

8 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Steve,

 

Go cut and shut mad ! I love it and build all sorts of stuff that way form Mk1's to Pullman car variations. One note of caution, the power cars and saloon cars are a different width which has to accounted for by cutting the wider coach bit down the middle of the roof and rejoining it. If I remember it is by about the kerf of a hacksaw blade which makes life easy-ish, it all adds to the fun though.

 

While building the kitchen cars you will have plenty of time to search out a couple of bargain coaches to finish the job.

 

Gibbo.

 

Such a shame that earlier, detailed, blow by blow accounts of altering Blue Pullmans have disappeared off RMWeb!  Your "heads up" about varying width, Gibbo, would otherwise have caught me out and messed me up!

 

I'm a late returner to the hobby ... and I know I am already biting off more than I can chew!  I have three incomplete "pugbashes", unfinished buildings I have got partway through creating, several wagons in bits as I aim to "improve" them, and now I am hotly pursuing a Blue Pullman!  My first layout attempt (DRS ENGINEERING) is on hold whilst I build WOODHEY QUAY on the bit of baseboard I cut off from the former, and I have yet to pick up my soldering iron again in anger (or otherwise) after my first disastrous attempts at soldering!  The term "running before you can walk" is ringing in my ears, but I think maybe I am trying to make up for lost time!

 

So, armed with the information so generously given in this thread, I am going to put all my Blue Pullman resources in a box for now, and turn my attention back to WOODHEY QUAY.  After all, once I have track down at least I can put my rolling road units on a siding, and run my locos whilst I try to master new skills (and continue to plan for my "big layout") and turn back to my Blue Pullman when feeling a little more confident.

 

Steve S

 

 

[SteveyDee68]

Okay....

 

Well, I went and won a six coach Blue Pullman off eBay which includes two Kitmaster restaurant cars.  It was sold as a "restoration" project in that it needs work to bring it up to standard. It appears that one Kitmaster has correct (different) sized bogies, but not the other.  At least that gives me something to work to for correct pattern bogies!  I may have to seek out the assistance of someone skilled with 3D printing - surely bogie sides aren't that difficult?! 

 

I got hold of the Blue Pullman issue of Model Rail magazine thanks to the heads up from Jason (Steamport Southport).  However, I've not yet located bogie kits or Chris Leigh's cast cab ends.  The pullout drawings are excellent, in 7mm, 4mm, 3mm and 2mm scale - but it was a shame that no end views of cabs or carriages were drawn!  I have the information/diagrams provided to me by Gibbo of course, just a shame those Model Rail scale drawings are incomplete!

 

Meanwhile, a unique version of a 3-car Blue Pullman repainted into traditional Pullman brown and cream livery has become available on eBay ... and strangely enough it shows that the blue livery was the right decision on the prototype!  (Picture taken from the listing). I am therefore shelving my idea for that repaint,  but do wonder what it might look like either in Blood & Custard, Maroon or even two tone green liveries! 

 

Steve S

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by SteveyDee68
Clarified

[stewartingram]

Well, at least you haven't even mentioned a Virgin livery! Thank heaven for small mercies.

 

Stewart

ps I must dig my old set out & photograph it, in case ssomeone is interested.

[cctransuk]

48 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

Okay....

 

Well, I went and won a six coach Blue Pullman off eBay which includes two Kitmaster restaurant cars.  It was sold as a "restoration" project in that it needs work to bring it up to standard. It appears that one Kitmaster has correct (different) sized bogies, but not the other.  At least that gives me something to work to for correct pattern bogies!  

 

I got hold of the Blue Pullman issue of Model Rail magazine thanks to the heads up from Jason (Steamport Southport).  However, I've not yet located bogie kits or Chris Leigh's cast cab ends.  The pullout drawings are excellent, in 7mm, 4mm, 3mm and 2mm scale - but it was a shame that no end views of cabs or carriages were drawn!

 

Meanwhile, a unique version of a 3-car Blue Pullman repainted into traditional Pullman brown and cream livery has become available on eBay ... and strangely enough it shows that the blue livery was the right decision on the prototype!  (Picture taken from the listing). I am therefore shelving my idea for that repaint,  but do wonder what it might look like either in Blood & Custard, Maroon or even two tone green liveries! 

 

Steve S

 

 

 

I had thought that it was a shame that the BPs weren't used to replace the Brighton Belle - now I'm glad that they weren't!!

 

John Isherwood.

[SteveyDee68]

28 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Well, at least you haven't even mentioned a Virgin livery! Thank heaven for small mercies.

 

Stewart

ps I must dig my old set out & photograph it, in case ssomeone is interested.

 

Now, Stewart, I had better keep quiet about the class 57 and class 59 locos I have in bare plastic ready for a "Manchester Liners" franchise livery!  I also sketched out a similar fictitious livery for a 7 car HST, all part of my imagined scenario that (a) the road lobby didn't decimate the railways in the 50s/60s/70s (b) Manchester/Salford and the Manchester Ship Canal continued as a shipping hub and (c) MSC and Manchester Liners amalgamated to become a national ship/rail force similar to Freightliner!  Rule #1 well and truly applied!

 

[SteveyDee68]

UPDATE:

 

Chris Leigh cab ends ... none to be found!  Anywhere!!

Bogie sides ... none to be found...

Genesis Kits ... Hattons list both cab ends and bogies, but only as a wishlist item!

Genesis Kits ... notification on a different website that the owners are retiring and have no plans to sell the business on.

 

It appears that the source of items to improve the Triang model have all but disappeared (Southern Pride have window inserts, out of stock of the restaurant car etchings) so now searching for someone with the wherewithall to 3D print at least the bogies! 

 

HOURS OF FRUSTRATION FUN!

[Richard_A]

I have a kitmaster kit I'm planning on taking resin copies of the bogies from it for my triang effort, I could make a few more if you need?

[Ramrig]

6 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

UPDATE:

 

Chris Leigh cab ends ... none to be found!  Anywhere!!

Bogie sides ... none to be found...

Genesis Kits ... Hattons list both cab ends and bogies, but only as a wishlist item!

Genesis Kits ... notification on a different website that the owners are retiring and have no plans to sell the business on.

 

It appears that the source of items to improve the Triang model have all but disappeared (Southern Pride have window inserts, out of stock of the restaurant car etchings) so now searching for someone with the wherewithall to 3D print at least the bogies! 

 

HOURS OF FRUSTRATION FUN!

Give me a day or two (or three) I might be able to help. I started a project a few years ago to rebuild a triang Blue Pullman (6 car midland version) with all of the parts listed above, + Chris Leighs cab detailing pack. Then just after I started Bachmann announced there’s and everything stopped as I new I would not be able to come up to their standard. So if I can find all of the parts I may be open to offers. If I remember correctly I also brought a new power unit that’s belt drive. 
 

 

 

[stewartingram]

As promised, pics of my old 5-car mixed Triang/Kitmaster rake, which I wish to dispose of. Done in the 70s/80s, store soon after.

WYSIWYG :-

1x motored power car, Ix dummy (Tg)

2 saloons (Tg)

1x catering car (Km).

The bogies have come adrift from the Kitmaster coach, note they are different types, one is without wheels.

All wheels are plastic.

Painted with Railmatch, transfers by Woodhead.

1 window in coach D is cracked.

 

Too good to throw away, anyway want it for spares/repair/whatever? Sensible offers invited, I'm not looking for a fortune, I'd rather see it put to good use.

Stewart

[SteveyDee68]

Thanks to generous offers of help and assistance from various members of RMWeb, I may be a few steps nearer to my goal of producing a Blue Pullman train.  Indeed, a socially distanced visit to my local model shop resulted in two Pullman centre cars, one for £24 and another for £8.50 (which requires stripping of paint and bogus transfers!), which together is less than for the cost of most single coaches on eBay at the moment! Meaning I now could produce two Midland 6 car sets (following Gibbo's cut and shut methods for two restaurant cars) or a Western Region 8 car train...

 

If any reader is interested in a five car set as the basis of a project, Stewart (stewartingram) has details in the previous post - please contact him.

 

Further to conversations elsewhere, I hope I might pursuade fellow RMWebbers to fill the void for detailing parts to enable others to improve the Triang offerings without falling prey to eBay mercenaries!

 

"Blue Pullmans, Blue Pullmans, Blue Pullmans are best,

I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!"

 

With apologies to Mssrs Flanders & Swann

Edited June 28, 2020 by SteveyDee68
Late spotting a bl@@dy typo!

[Northmoor]

On 24/06/2020 at 17:00, SteveyDee68 said:

UPDATE:

 

Chris Leigh cab ends ... none to be found!  Anywhere!!

Bogie sides ... none to be found...

Genesis Kits ... Hattons list both cab ends and bogies, but only as a wishlist item!

Genesis Kits ... notification on a different website that the owners are retiring and have no plans to sell the business on.

 

It appears that the source of items to improve the Triang model have all but disappeared (Southern Pride have window inserts, out of stock of the restaurant car etchings) so now searching for someone with the wherewithall to 3D print at least the bogies! 

 

HOURS OF FRUSTRATION FUN!

Somewhere in a back issue of Model Rail magazine there was a very short article - more like a letter - which showed how someone had gone down the "shortie" Hornby Mk3 route.  It seemed to have been a fair bit of work and I have heard some be quite dismissive of his efforts, but he still had a complete Blue Pullman which satisfied him and for considerably less than collecting and then cutting up a set of Triang coaches.

 

As for Genesis kits, I can never understand why people do this.  "I don't want the business, but I don't want anyone else to have it either".  Why do they not just sell their tooling and close the business?  If they don't want to go through a commercial transaction, then give them away, but don't for God's sake just hoard them.

[SteveyDee68]

This (to me) seems the current state of play if you want a Blue Pullman (please feel free to correct me):

 

COMMERCIAL AVENUES

 

A = Bachmann MR 6 car Blue Pullman - highly and correctly detailed.  Issue: just the one ... really expensive! 

 

B = Triang Blue Pullman - WR driving cars, single style of middle car.  Issues: all carriages are short, incorrect cab profiles, generic underframe detail, incorrect bogies.  Driving cars in plentiful supply, middle coaches increasingly expensive from eBay sellers especially boxed examples (collector fodder?)

 

C = Kitmaster Blue Pullman - MR driving cars only and all types of middle coaches available including restaurant coaches, with correct pattern bogies and car lengths, plus correct buffers and underframe details.  Issue: more difficult to find than unicorn droppings and so expensive, especially unmade (again, I guess sought after by collectors?)

 

D = Chris Leigh correct pattern cast driving cabs.  Issue: no longer produced and difficult to locate!

 

E = Genesis Kits - correct bogies and cab ends.  Issue: no longer produced and makers retired.

 

F = Silver Fox - correct pattern resin bogies.  Since originally posting, I have found an auction from Silver Fox on eBay for unpowered bogies, and a (currently unavailable) option for the powered bogies, so it would appear that this source of parts is still viable and in production

 

G = Southern Pride - window inlays for all types of carriages, but scaled to fit the shorter Triang model.  Also roof vent mouldings for restaurant cars.  Issue: getting hold of the necessary Triang donor vehicles.

 

As far as I am aware, that covers the commercial avenues.

 

NON-COMMERCIAL

 

Gibbo has given instructions (earlier in this thread) outlining how to take two driving cars and a centre coach (in other words, the original Triang 3-car set) and cut and shut them into 2 x restaurant cars.  These could be completed using the  roof castings from Southern Pride (x 2) and could even reuse the Triang bogies to provide 4 x bogies.  Alternatively, Silver Fox resin bogies could be used (2 x pairs) for correct pattern bogies (but only for WR restaurant cars!)  Should Silver Fox also do power bogies, it would be possible to correctly bogie these cars.  Issue: still need to source another 3-car set plus an additional middle coach to create a MR 6-car formation (see above regarding scarcity of middle cars!)

 

QUESTION

Triang are long gone, as are the moulds for their models.  Where would a small manufacturer stand producing a replica Triang coach to augment the existing power cars still easily available?  Arguably it makes more sense for a single manufacturer to carry the various parts required, as otherwise sales of one item become dependent upon the availability of another from a different company. But what is the feasibility, technically and legally?  (I am not a lawyer but wondered what thoughts are on this.)

 

If anybody has any knowledge of any other small suppliers producing Blue Pullman related detailing parts, please feel free to comment on this thread.  

 

Steve

Edited June 29, 2020 by SteveyDee68
Kitmaster info corrected/Silver Fox info updated

[frobisher]

52 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

QUESTION

Triang are long gone, as are the moulds for their models.  Where would a small manufacturer stand producing a replica Triang coach to augment the existing power cars still easily available?  Arguably it makes more sense for a single manufacturer to carry the various parts required, as otherwise sales of one item become dependent upon the availability of another from a different company. But what is the feasibility, technically and legally?  (I am not a lawyer but wondered what thoughts are on this.)

 

The Triang tooling (if still extant - I seem to recall that it's not serviceable when last looked at) belongs to Hornby who might take a dim view of someone reverse engineering a facsimile replica without seeking permission.  A non-facsimile replica (i.e. not a direct copy of the parts but would look overall the same) would be more costly to develop.  Either option I couldn't see a commercial case for developing. 

 

 

 

[cctransuk]

9 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

C = Kitmaster Blue Pullman - MR/WR driving cars and all types of middle coaches available including restaurant coaches, with correct pattern bogies and car lengths, plus cirrect buffers and underframe details.

 

Unfortunately not - the Kitmaster models are for an LMR rake; the WR cars were significantly different.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[SteveyDee68]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Unfortunately not - the Kitmaster models are for an LMR rake; the WR cars were significantly different.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Thanks, John, for that information: I've updated my post above accordingly. 

 

I realise that I should have added information about the sets of transfers you have available for both LMR/WR Blue Pullman sets, but I was focusing on the carriages themselves initially.  I also know that the colour is "Nanking Blue", but at this point have no idea who produces that paint colour; I guess that is the next stage!

 

Steve S

[stewartingram]

Railmatch do (or did!) Nanking Blue, see my pics above.

 

Stewart

[SteveyDee68]

20 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

The Triang tooling (if still extant - I seem to recall that it's not serviceable when last looked at) belongs to Hornby who might take a dim view of someone reverse engineering a facsimile replica without seeking permission.  A non-facsimile replica (i.e. not a direct copy of the parts but would look overall the same) would be more costly to develop.  Either option I couldn't see a commercial case for developing. 

 

 

 

 

What frustrates me - as a modeller - is that in this situation, Hornby no longer have any income stream from that long defunct product.  If it was the case that when buying a second hand item that you had to pay Hornby a percentage "license" fee for use thereof, I can see that it would be an issue.  But we don't, and once something is sold the manufacturer (Hornby) does not make further money from that item.  You can only sell stock once!  (Unless you are Max Bialystock, but that's another story!). So second hand sales have no impact upon Hornby's bottom line.

 

Hornby could replace the Triang moulds - but that is expensive, resulting in selling coaches at a higher price to recoup investment costs, which is a non-starter because modellers want a cheaper alternative to the silly eBay prices not an equally expensive option!  Furthermore, this would be a reissue of an "approximate" model, unlikely to go down well when Bachmann produce a stunningly accurate model!  As you say, not a commercial option for Hornby!

 

The replacement window etches by Southern Pride are adapted to fit the Triang coach as originally produced.  Did Southern Pride have to pay Triang/Hornby a license fee for making their parts, as they are designed to fit (there must have been an element of reverse engineering involved in order to come up with measurements).  Likewise, do all the producers of flush glazing kits have to pay license fees to the original manufacturers?  After all, if they don't reverse engineer measurements from the original models, how can they ensure their improvements will fit?

 

I am not asking that as a rhetorical question - I really don't know!  Do those companies have to pay license fees for "after market" products?

 

Surely anything produced to improve a base RTR model are "after sales" items, and not tied to the income streams of the original manufacturers in any way? (Apologies - I am simply using layman's terms and am not a lawyer .... if I was, I'd be able to afford a Bachmann Blue Pullman after about three hours of work!!)

 

Maybe it is just a question of asking Hornby's permission, as they won't lose sales unless they have the intention of producing the same model themselves.  Recent events with the Terrier and Class 66 indicates Hornby aren't happy to simply let others "steal" market share from them; Hornby continue to produce the 75 T breakdown crane model, despite the Bachmann model running rings around it in terms of detail and accuracy, but they have functioning moulds and a different target market.  For Hornby to go head to head with Bachmann over a Blue Pullman is a non-starter if having to make new moulds - why invest in a model with serious compromises when prices would need to be close to Bachmann to recoup investment costs?

 

But where is the harm (to Hornby) in a small supplier filling that market gap?  Especially with Hornby's blessing? 

 

Food for thought, or am I just terribly naive?

 

Steve S

 

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by SteveyDee68
I apparently couldn't spell "food"!

[SteveyDee68]

8 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Railmatch do (or did!) Nanking Blue, see my pics above.

 

Stewart

 

Thanks, Stewart!

 

Ask a question, and somebody on RMWeb has the answer, or knows someone who does!

 

Steve S

 

BIT OF BLUE (PULLMAN) FOR THE DADS!

[cctransuk]

22 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Railmatch do (or did!) Nanking Blue, see my pics above.

 

Stewart

 

.... as do Phoenix.

 

John Isherwood.

[frobisher]

45 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

Likewise, do all the producers of flush glazing kits have to pay license fees to the original manufacturers?  After all, if they don't reverse engineer measurements from the original models, how can they ensure their improvements will fit?

 

I am not asking that as a rhetorical question - I really don't know!  Do those companies have to pay license fees for "after market" products?

 

No in a nutshell.  It's not reverse engineering in the sense I mentioned and as it is commonly understood.

 

However if you replicate in full a substitute, near identical product for even a defunct product, doing that without permission can open up a whole world of pain.

 

As to the commercial viability of such a coach (for anyone, not just Hornby), a direct copy of the Triang parts would be the cheapest way of doing it (via scans etc.) but would absolutely have to be done with Hornby's blessing, tooling near identical parts from scratch might not need to be done with Hornby's blessing but would probably need to demonstrate that these were not done as direct copies of the Triang originals and would not be a cheap process, and certainly nowhere in proportion to a relatively niche market.