The Night Mail

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Afternoon all,

 

Here is a photo of the current state of my scratch building project. Yes, I know, its nowhere near the standards of some scratch builders, but I don’t have the money to by proper wheels and such. Of course at the moment it’s nowhere near finished, as the bogie isn’t even connected to the chassis. I built the engine to Gauge II (2 inch gauge, scale is a guess) standards, partly because it’s smaller the 2.5 inch gauge and partly because I  may say that this is the first new gauge II engine this century, and the first new (confirmed) engine since around 1927. 
 

The photo has distorted a few things, like the uprightness of the smokebox front. Quite a lot of the wood is there as a “placeholder.”
 

 

 

In other news, tomorrow I have Drivers Ed, as on the next two days, then I think on Thursday I have my permit test. Then I have Friday off and then on Saturday the family is up at 4:00 am to board a plane bound for Spokane Washington, where outside of which we will be staying on a “restored” farm owned by some friends. I say restored as up till 6 years ago it was a major farm in the area, but after the husband retired from farming it was made very modern, but in keeping with its location. 
 

While I’m excited about going, I detest flying in general, why I’m not sure. I find planes very interesting though. Anybody else have this?

 

Douglas

[Adam88]

47 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

There goes the second inspection too....

 

 

 

Sorry, that was an unfortunate typo, I meant knew. John was a great bloke and a few years ago we went on several outings to various European railway museums with a few other people. I recall sitting at a pavement table of a bar in Amsterdam with John one day when a bloke who overheard us talking tried to pick him up on a point and John retorted, "I'm sorry but this is a discussion among senior officers, so if you'll excuse us....." Exit third party in some confusion.

 

Dave

 

He certainly sounded quite a character, but it also sounded as if he was endowed with copious quantities of good old-fashioned common sense and applied practical experience.

[PhilJ W]

[Happy Hippo]

38 minutes ago, Adam88 said:

 

He certainly sounded quite a character, but it also sounded as if he was endowed with copious quantities of good old-fashioned common sense and applied practical experience.

He was,  one one trip back to the UK for a long weekend, we bumped into John just after we boarded the P&O ferry at Zebrugge.

 

That got us a visit to the bridge and a long discussion about navigating around WWII minefields that were still extant in the North Sea.

 

When he was on the QM course at Blackdown in Surrey, I was there on my Ordnance Officers course.  We spent many evenings touring various sites of a railway interest, especially the military ones.

 

The trip to the site of the Brookwood Necropolis Railway also took in the military Cemetery at Brookwood, so it was a long evening!

[J. S. Bach]

3 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

 ...snip... While I’m excited about going, I detest flying in general, why I’m not sure. I find planes very interesting though. Anybody else have this?

Douglas

Yes, especially after a flight in this bird:

[Happy Hippo]

4 hours ago, J. S. Bach said:

Yes, especially after a flight in this bird:

I had a rather exciting flight around Wales at low level in a C130. prior to being dropped off at Weston on the Green.  Some of my fellow passengers were not so impressed.

[Dave Hunt]

6 hours ago, J. S. Bach said:

Yes, especially after a flight in this bird:

 

I've spent quite a few hours in the back of a Herkybird for one reason or another. What's not to like? Once you get used to the noise, the smell, the general discomfort, the lack of any amenities, the usual presence of large pieces of machinery lashed to the floor in front of you................ah, I see what you mean.

 

The best view of a C-130 was from the back when getting fuel from one of the tanker variants in the Falklands.

 

Dave

Edited July 19, 2021 by Dave Hunt

[Oldddudders]

9 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

The best view of a C-130 was from the back when getting fuel from one of the tanker variants in the Falklands.

As throwaway remarks go, that one is really quietly impressive! 

[Happy Hippo]

11 hours ago, br2975 said:

Full signalling ?

OR

C2 working ? (post rationalisation)

.

Exit stage left, pursued by a Hippo.................

For those not in the know, I keep drawing up signalling diagrams every time Brian's changes the Efflew Valley track plans:  Invariably he admires such and then tells me it's designed for C2 Operations.  (Freight only travel between locations using verbal permission and confirmation from the responsible person at each end of the section in question.)

 

One day one of us will totally fold to the others way of thinking!

 

Rationalisation of the railways in S Wales started back  not long after the Grouping of 1923. With the proliferation of duplicate lines in the Valleys, the GWR was not slow in trimming things back.  The ex Barry Line from Penrhos lower through to it's junction with the ex Brecon and Merthyr line at Dyffryn Isaf was closed and the rather expensive viaducts demolished after a working life of under 20 years. Later the section from Tonteg Junction through to Trehafod also closed although these lines were not lifted until the 1950's.

 

Coal traffic was in decline after WWI.  For example, the Royal Navy were moving away from coal firing in favour of oil so the requirement for huge amounts of coal for shipping was in decline.  This was matched by the modernisation of the Merchant fleet. 

 

Although much is made of Beeching's axe in the 1960's, BR(W) were already busy closing unprofitable routes.  The lines to Brecon and the line from Merthyr to Abergavenny (among others) being closed before the publication of the report.

 

We have already mentioned the passenger services, but freight continued much as normal until 1964.  This being the time of a lot of steam shed closures and the introduction of a new freight scheme involving centralisation of diesel locos (mainly class 37) to work freight diagrams.  I claim no in depth knowledge of this, Brian knows far more about it, so if anyone wants more detailed information, he's your man.

 

So now we can dip into the grand saga of whether or not to signal the latest design.

 

RCJ as originally designed was planned to use the Peco fb track from the old South Greenfield layout from Yorkshire. It was to be small and simple, and easily transported. Operation was planned as post steam, so using all diesel locos and appropriate stock for the mid to late 60's. Turnout operation would have been by gerfingerpoken and the Dingham couplings would have been tripped with a shunters pole rather than by electro magnet. The whole scheme  being ideal for the C2 style of operation.

 

Demolition of both SWS and PS releases a lot of track and pointwork, hence the appearance of the larger RCJ.  Within the electricals that will be recovered in a Megapoints servo controller and a number of cobalt slow action point motors plus various servoes.  

 

The Servo controller can the ability to switch 12 functions.  A signal or a single turnout being one function:  A crossover with two motors but driven by a single switch is also one function.  The initial signalling diagram for the new RCJ requires five functions for the turnouts ( 3 x crossovers, 2 x single turnouts) and a further twelve for the signals!

 

Obviously that is a fully signalled line, but to do it in that way would involve the purchase of another servo control board, plus a lot of signals, so C2 operation has a lot to offer both in the financial sense as well as the time needed to create all this.

 

Of course the signalling could well be rationalised as observation of various signalling diagrams show widely differing signalling requirements where many shunting moves were conducted by common sense rather than being ruled by mechanical signalling.  Making the loop line freight only, were a passenger service be introduced would make a significant reduction in the number of signals, but I' need to look further into this as the signalling differs where the passenger service terminates as opposed to the option of continuing up the valley.

 

From a purely modelling perspective a small layout with a proliferation of signals can look rather odd and somewhat overwhelmed by them.  They can also get in the way for certain gerfingerpoken operations.

 

As one can see, there's a bit more to creating this little part of S Wales than just plonking a load of track on the boards and playing it by ear!  I've done this before and in the long term it causes more trouble than it's worth.

 

Funnily enough, Aberflyarff would function quite comfortably with the one servo controller!

 

But I have another cunning plan..........

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Happy Hippo

[Happy Hippo]

Sometimes one can be a complete bird brain.

 

When I opted to drive the Cobalt Motors through the Megapoints servo controller, a separate interface board was required.  The advantage of this being that after the point has finished moving, the clever electronics closes the power off to the Cobalt stall motor.  This stops it humming away and one presumes will extend the life of the Cobalt.

 

However,  since you can just drive the Cobalt off a simple SPTDT on-on off switch, so they do not really need coupling to the Megapoints system if I'm feeling mean.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Happy Hippo

[Oldddudders]

46 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Sometimes one can be a complete bird brain.

 

When I opted to drive the Cobalt Motors through the Megapoints servo controller, a separate interface board was required.  The advantage of this being that after the point has finished moving, the clever electronics closes the power off to the Cobalt stall motor.  This stops it humming away and one presumes will extend the life of the Cobalt.

 

However,  since you can just drive the Cobalt off a simple SPTDT on-on off switch, so they do not really need coupling to the Megapoints system if I'm feeling mean.

I can't speak for Cobalts, but I have a number of conceptually-similar Tortoise machines which have now been under continuous power for nearly 15 years. Leaving them powered ensures that the points cannot drift open. 

[Happy Hippo]

5 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

The best view of a C-130 was from the back when getting fuel from one of the tanker variants in the Falklands.

 

Dave

 

5 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

As throwaway remarks go, that one is really quietly impressive! 

I could concur with Dave, and add that the view of the aircraft disappearing into the sky as you step off the tailgate at 12000' is quite serene:  A quick waft of turbine exhaust and then comparative silence.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Happy Hippo

[simontaylor484]

10 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

I had a rather exciting flight around Wales at low level in a C130. prior to being dropped off at Weston on the Green.  Some of my fellow passengers were not so impressed.

Dropped through the back door there i guess. I used to pass Weston on the Green on my way home from Abingdon taking a short cut from just after Family farm services on the A34 it brought you out at the M40 A43 junction 

[polybear]

22 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

I've spent quite a few hours in the back of a Herkybird for one reason or another. What's not to like? Once you get used to the noise, the smell, the general discomfort, the lack of any amenities, the usual presence of large pieces of machinery lashed to the floor in front of you................ah, I see what you mean.

 

The best view of a C-130 was from the back when getting fuel from one of the tanker variants in the Falklands.

 

Dave

 

Many, many moons ago some of the guys from work were doing Trials involving the use of Hawker Hunter XG210 at (IIRC) RAF Valley; the word went out that some of them had the opportunity for a Jolly in a Nimrod.  Des, the Aircraft Fitter never put his name down though - he was wise enough to realise that if you can't find out what is going to happen on the flight then it may not be A Good Place To Be....

It seems that a high-up RAF Officer also went up for the "Jolly"

Well it seems that Nimrod's have a little stunt where, from high altitude, if they detect a target (submarine, presumably) then they want to get on the deck asap - presumably for the dropping of depth charges?  To do this they go into a spiral dive, so I was told afterwards.

One of our guys literally crawled down the steps off the plane afterwards; the RAF Officer apparently barfed too.

Let that be a warning to us all.

 

Incidentally, the most exciting thing that Bear ever took part in in fixed wing aircraft was during propeller strain gauge trials on the ATP over the Irish Sea, which involved stalling the aircraft, amongst other things.  All good fun.

[Happy Hippo]

2 hours ago, polybear said:

 

 

Well it seems that Nimrod's have a little stunt where, from high altitude, if they detect a target (submarine, presumably) then they want to get on the deck asap - presumably for the dropping of depth charges?  To do this they go into a spiral dive, so I was told afterwards.

One of our guys literally crawled down the steps off the plane afterwards; the RAF Officer apparently barfed too.

Let that be a warning to us all.

The aptly named Vomit Comet!

 

Many years ago I was listening to some private pilots (at the bar naturally) talking about stalling and stall speeds and the risk of stalling at low level when in the bottom end of the landing circuit.  It got me quite worried as by the way they were going on, it seemed that stalling at low level and death were an every day occurrence in the light aircraft world

 

When I went to order another drink a little chap sitting at the bar turned to me and said in a quiet voice: 

 

'They are all talking cr*p! Their discussion would have been so much more interesting if they'd been discussing how to avoid a stall.  It's called minimum manoeuvring speed and each and every aircraft will have one.  It's a totally different speed to the stall speed which they are all fixated about.

 

I learned a lot that evening.

 

 

[Dave Hunt]

I'm fortunate enough never to have felt even slightly motion sick on land, sea or air throughout my life but I feel a great deal of sympathy for those who do. One of my worst experiences was in a C-130 when detaching to Cyprus and  I was accompanying the ground crew. Things got a bit rough over the Alps and someone barfed, which led to a chain reaction and soon there were people throwing up all over the place. Luckily, once the turbulence had gone the captain OK'd it for me and a couple of others to go up onto the flight deck to escape the smell while the air cleared. The RAF medics thought that air sickness was often caused by sensations from the inner ear canals (although there was also a psychological element, which was generally absent in aircrew) and ran a desensitisation course involving a thing called a spin table, which did seem to work for some people. The spin table was also used to give pilots experience of  how misleading the senses can be in the absence of visual clues, which has led to many an accident when flying 'blind' when reaction to the natural senses has overcome what the instruments are saying. On one of my F4 tours in Germany my back seater was prone to air sickness if he hadn't flown for a while but as long as he stayed current he was OK. It was always a bit yucky when he came back off leave as at some stage in the first trip he would almost always barf. Not being a sufferer myself I was always a keen aerobatic pilot and even used to enjoy spinning in aircraft where it was allowed - definitely not in the F4 or Tornado.

 

Dave 

[Dave Hunt]

36 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

The aptly named Vomit Comet!

 

Many years ago I was listening to some private pilots (at the bar naturally) talking about stalling and stall speeds and the risk of stalling at low level when in the bottom end of the landing circuit.  It got me quite worried as by the way they were going on, it seemed that stalling at low level and death were an every day occurrence in the light aircraft world

 

When I went to order another drink a little chap sitting at the bar turned to me and said in a quiet voice: 

 

'They are all talking cr*p! Their discussion would have been so much more interesting if they'd been discussing how to avoid a stall.  It's called minimum manoeuvring speed and each and every aircraft will have one.  It's a totally different speed to the stall speed which they are all fixated about.

 

I learned a lot that evening.

 

 

 

In simple terms, the stalling speed of an aircraft depends on the amount of lift the wings are being required to generate and hence the wing loading. The greater the wing loading, the higher the angle of attack of the wings to the airflow has to be until the point arrives where the airflow cannot 'stick' to the wings, it breaks away and the aircraft stalls. It is perfectly possible to stall an aircraft at high speed if you apply enough G, which has led to many an accident at low level and which once killed some friends of mine in an F4. At low speed, such as when in the landing circuit, the flying speed at 1G (I.e., straight and level) is relatively close to the stalling speed so any increase in wing loading, such as when turning*, that increases the stalling speed will narrow the margin. Hence the minimum speed when turning in the circuit is higher than on the last bit of the approach just before touchdown. As an added complication, the aircraft weight has to be taken into account so the amount of fuel, passengers, luggage, underwing stores etc. enters the equation, as does the flap setting and one or two other things. Hence there are simple rules for  each aircraft type that start with the 'basic' landing speed that is then adjusted for the above factors. Once that speed has been determined, the rest of the approach procedure is simply given as landing speed plus XX amount.

 

The above is a very simplistic explanation and I apologise to anyone knowledgeable in aerodynamics for it. If those light aircraft pilots to whom HH refers did not have at least a basic understanding of the subject I for one would not get into an aircraft they were flying. But then there are idiots in any human activity, as we witness on the roads ever day. It is, however, fortunate that there seem to be fewer in aviation than elsewhere although it has to be said that a fair proportion of accidents are simply 'pilot error' (a euphemism for screwing up as one of my old instructors delicately put it) and there is as yet no corner of the aviation industry that is wholly immune from it.

 

Dave

 

*The lift vector generated by the wings is normal to the aircraft lateral axis so when banked, as in a turn, the lift has to increase by the cosine of the bank angle to maintain level flight, hence at 60 degrees of bank the lift generated by the wings has to be double that when wings level or the aircraft will descend.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Dave Hunt
Forgot the asterisked bit

[PhilJ W]

Back in my schooldays I was in the air cadets. On summer camp we went to a training establishment flying Varsities. They could carry eight passengers IIRC and they filled all eight seats with cadets for the flights which were of about six hours duration. We were each given a packed lunch and a sick bag and told that anyone who barfed had to clean their own up if they missed the sick bag. What we weren't told that we would be practicing high-low-high bombing runs. We were told to strap ourselves in to our seats, rearward facing RAF style at the back of the fuselage. We had barely strapped ourselves in when the aircraft went into its dive that had no effect on us as all we could see out of the windows was blue sky but on the pull out and climb we could see the sea and coastline and it was then about half the cadets barfed, but not yours truly. Fortunately they all used the bags so that there was no mess to clear up. This was just before lunch but those who had barfed didn't fancy eating so those that didn't barf had two lunches. I can't for the life of me recall which base it was but it was somewhere in the fens and the 'bombing practice' was over the Wash and the North Norfolk coast.

[TheQ]

Bombing on the wash , that sound like the area controlled by RAF Holbeach, but that's not where you could have flown from.

 

Herkybird flights, just one for me circuits and bumps while they were testing something.

We did get threatened that we might have to use one, when  most of the Tristar fleet got stuck broken down on Mount Pleasant.. Luckliy they fixed a couple just in time..

 

Stalling at any speed can be achieved in a sailing boat, but with much less disastrous consequences.

 

I've managed it at high speed, for the type of boat I was in, (6mph), trying to keep the spinnaker  up while clearing a corner on a river.. Led to the boat sailing sideways till we dropped the spinnaker, luckily we cleared the steel piled River bank.

 

Stalling at low speed is common on the broads, hence my spending hours looking at rudder aerofoil shapes that hold onto the water flow for longer, before stalling out. Unfortunately the best ones have high drag, so it's always a compromise..

[Happy Hippo]

1 hour ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

The RAF medics thought that air sickness was often caused by sensations from the inner ear canals

 

I'm another who fortunately is unafflicted by motion sickness, yet I will shy way from the more exotic rides at theme parks, I really don't like them.

 

But the inner ear can do strange things to your balance especially if you are also having changes of pressure at the same time.

 

I became aware of this when kneeling behind the pilot in a Cessna 205.

 

We were climbing to 5000ft and flew into a fairly thick belt of cloud. We popped out on top, but ended up being unable to find a suitable hole to jump through, so we had to descend again. The pilot (he was also a KLM jumbo captain) gently half rolled  and as he did so started to descend in order to stop us going temporarily weightless, which would have got the five of use who were not strapped in lifting off the floor.

 

By now we were back in the cloud and my brain was telling me we were in a spiral dive.  Yet looking over  his shoulder revealed the artificial horizon indicating wings level and the VSI showing a descent rate of about 300 feet per minute.

 

I suppose it goes to show how non instrument rated pilots can come a cropper if they get into cloud.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Happy Hippo

[polybear]

1 hour ago, Dave Hunt said:

I'm fortunate enough never to have felt even slightly motion sick on land, sea or air throughout my life but I feel a great deal of sympathy for those who do.

 

 

The only A/C Bear has barfed in was a German Sea King flying out of Kiel - and I had no sick bag....

Fortunately the Ferranti Field Service rep sitting next to me asked the guy at the back (in German) if there was one in the huge kit bag he had with him (I still recall the rest of the crew turning and looking at me .  The shrug of the shoulders didn't look promising, fortunately he went for a rummage and came up trumps.  At this point Bear is thinking "FFS Hurry Up" as I'd already had to swallow a couple of times at that point sorry, definitely TMI .  Anyway, no cleaning up was required, though the Radar Operator (who was sitting all of 5ft away) was less than impressed and lit up a fag....

I recall feeling rough for days afterwards.

 

1 hour ago, Dave Hunt said:

*The lift vector generated by the wings is normal to the aircraft lateral axis so when banked, as in a turn, the lift has to increase by the cosine of the bank angle to maintain level flight, hence at 60 degrees of bank the lift generated by the wings has to be double that when wings level or the aircraft will descend.

 

T'was on the tip of Bear's tonque, but the Wg. Cdr beat me to it....

[jamie92208]

All very interesting to read.  Fortunately I've never felt airsick or seasick despite some quite turbulent and bouncy flights.  One wierd one was on an MD80 out of Denver with a lot of turbulence around.  I was right at the back with a view of a toilet door on one side and an engine cowling on the other, neither of which moved.  I could see passengers heads bouncing but the cabin never moved and I felt fine.  The pilot told the cabin crew to stay strapped in until further notice. As we came off the runway he put on full throttlecand headed skywards. I never felt any problem but a lot of passengers did.  Weeventually got clear of the weather ten spent half an hour dodging thunderstorms before we could land in Chicago.  

 

Oon a ferry from Calaus to Dover one night, we were 3.5 hours and thectoilets had semi liquid carpets. Neither Beth or I had any problem.  After a tug assisted passage into the harbour we also needed tug assistance to berth.  All good fun.

 

Jamie.

[Dave Hunt]

3 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Back in my schooldays I was in the air cadets. On summer camp we went to a training establishment flying Varsities........... I can't for the life of me recall which base it was but it was somewhere in the fens and the 'bombing practice' was over the Wash and the North Norfolk coast.

 

Probably Oakington in Cambridgeshire with the bombing runs at  Holbeach and/or  Wainfleet.

 

Dave

Edited July 20, 2021 by Dave Hunt

[Dave Hunt]

50 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Oon a ferry from Calaus to Dover one night, we were 3.5 hours and thectoilets had semi liquid carpets. Neither Beth or I had any problem.  After a tug assisted passage into the harbour we also needed tug assistance to berth.  All good fun.

 

When I was a nipper we were on a Liverpool - Isle of Man ferry when it was very rough. Dad and I went down to the dining room for lunch and were the only passengers there; the waiter said that we could have sandwiches, cake, that sort of thing as it was too rough for the kitchen to operate properly and in any case most of the staff were feeling sick - were we sure we wanted to eat? We did.

 

Dave

[Stubby47]

Went on a day trip to Isles of Scilly, many moons ago, on the Scillonian 3.  Whilst in harbour, we went down to the lower inside deck to view the information there. Just seeing the harbour wall doing circles through the port hole was too much for me, back out in to the fresh air !

Even earlier, on a Calais-Dover crossing with my parents, we were finding it hard to walk on the deck, as each step was either very short or very long, depending on the ship's movement.  Most impressed by the waiters carrying trays one handed above the shoulder and not missing a step.

 

I have been to Hampshire and back and Plymouth and back since Sunday, am now feeling the after affects but have to 'work' instead - 1st meeting of the afternoon at 14:00...