Non member view and thoughts about the Gauge O guild

[pete_mcfarlane]

I'm not an O gauge modeller, but I'm following this thread with interest as I've seen similar behaviours in another society I'm involved with (amdram, so not railways or modelling related). In particular we had a situation a few years ago that went like this:

 

1. Some people were unhappy with how the group was being run, in particular committee not doing enough etc 
2. Said people tried to get elected at AGM and stage coup. Failed
3. Said people left and set up own rival group.
4. People running new group complain about how much work this involves (and how old group is being unreasonable by not supporting them with the loan of equipment for free etc).

What I have learned down the years from being involved in running a club is that there's a group of people who will always complain that the group is being run badly (ie, not the way that suits them), but without wanting to get involved in any of the work themselves.

 

This makes getting feedback on how well you are doing really hard, as the same vocal minority will claim you're useless regardless of whether things are genuinely a complete shambles or going really well. This is obviously going to hamper any changes or improvements (or detection of actual problems and unhappy normal group members). I watch PMQs slightly differently now from how I used to....

 

 

21 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

I don’t want to get dragged into details of Guild finances. The two big costs, publications and shows have a more detailed breakdown, certainly for 2019. Only Telford makes a loss. Telford also bears the cost of the AGM. 
 

 

One thing I'd comment here is that you need to make a year on year profit or surplus, so losing money on individual events doesn't matter if other things subsidise them. As a drama group we make money on a panto, and use it to subsidise the loses on more highbrow shows (and proffessional theatres do the same). 

 

[jamie92208]

When I was involved in managing an exhibition, a rule of thumb re finance was as follows.

The trade rents paid for the hall.

The first two days paid the layout expenses plus rebuilt the float that was needed for pre exhibition expenditure.

The last day provided a surplus for the club to use.

 

As far as I know, the GOG were one of the first users of the international centre at Telford. To begin with the hire fees were reasonable. However I believe that the centre has changed hands at least once and the current owners have increased the rent considerably, which I think is one of the reasons for the move to Stafford. However I do not have any inside knowledge.

 

As to payment of layout expenses, Telford is in line with most other exhibitions and does not normally pay for Sunday night accommodation except in particular circumstances. 

 

As a member I am quite happy for the major meeting of the year, coupled with an AGM, to make a loss as it is a flagship for that part of the hobby.  However any such subsidy needs to be managed and affordable.  The sheer variety of traders is unbeatable and several of them do not appear at other shows. 

 

Jamie

Edited July 15, 2020 by jamie92208

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

 

Soldering is easy, its making sure lining up the chassis so it all square, Getting all the connecting rods right, painting and lining are the hard bits. Its Easy to balls up a 300 note kit.

 

 

 

That's why you start with something simpler.

 

Plenty of reasonably priced wagon kits available in 0 gauge to learn the techniques. This for example.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Wagon Kit Pages/LNER 20 Ton Lowmac L.html

 

But most "modern" kits are so well designed that the chances of you "balls upping" them are very remote. By it's nature soldering etched brass kits is much more forgiving at rectifying mistakes than most other materials. You just desolder where you went wrong. Can't do that with plastic or resin.

 

 

 

Jason

[fail safe]

1 hour ago, RichardT said:

Except, as we have read above, there are differing views in 0-world as to what the gauge should be, seemingly all incompatible with each other

Agree with all you say except just to pick up on the gauge itself for the benefit of those in other scales,  for nearly everyone, it is 32mm track gauge and has always been so. It's only S7 that is different at 33mm track gauge. S7 is only modelled by a very small group of people who want to achieve nearer to dead scale track standards. They have their own group with newsletter. There are some fine scale people who have reduced the gauge and check gauge at the points to achieve finer running standards, but thats another story and it doesn't make any rolling stock incompatible.

 

The issue of non compatibility arises where the old course scale or S7 wheels won't run through finescale track etc. But then who would want to do that! 

 

So I guess the big compatibility issue is that 'The Gauge 0 Guild' represents all the different factions of 7mm scale with their incompatibilities and cultures all of whom who want slightly different things. Add to that a steamy culture, so if you model diesels you won't find much to inspire you. Nothing against people doing their own thing but maybe these are some of the major problems the Guild has to face up to.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by fail safe

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, fail safe said:

Add to that a steamy culture, so if you model diesels you won't find much to inspire you.

....and even less if you model American diesels...      ...but I don't expect - or need - the Guild to cater for that anyway. 

It does make me smile though when the publicity hype for Guildex promises "everything" for the O Scale modeller will be there. Not for me, it won't. But I still go, because I do dabble in UK O as well.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

When I was involved in managing an exhibition, a rule of thumb re finance was as follows.

The trade rents paid for the hall.

The first two days paid the layout expenses plus rebuilt the float that was needed for pre exhibition expenditure.

The last day provided a surplus for the club to use.

 

As far as I know, the GOG were one of the first users of the international centre at Telford. To begin with the hire fees were reasonable. However I believe that the centre has changed hands at least once and the current owners have increased the rent considerably, which I think is onevof the reasons for the move to Stafford. However I do not have any inside knowledge.

 

As to payment of layout expenses, Telford us in line with most other exhibitions and does not normally pay for Sunday night accommodation except in particular circumstances. 

 

As a member I am quite happy for the majot meeting if the year, coupled with an AGM, to make a loss as it us a flagship for that part of the hobby.  However any such subsidy needs to be managed and affordable.  The sheer variety of traders is unbeatable and several of them do not appear at other shows. 

 

Jamie

 

Don’t the coatings listed above imply a three-day show, which is fairly rare?

 

As an outsider I’m slightly confused by the financial/expenses stuff mentioned. Is the problem that people feel that Telford relies too much on subsidy from membership fees in general, or is it more specifically that they think committee members and others are taking advantage?

 

There are several specialist NG shows and as far as I can tell these don’t have this problem (in terms of those that have folded or been scaled down recently this is mainly because the people involved with organising them have been involved for ages and now want or need a break). However these are organised at a more local level, rather than by the 009 Society, 7mm NGA etc. I think in the past the 009 Society has given some money to members to book a space for a meeting or small open day when setting up a new group but this is slightly different.

[009 micro modeller]

16 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

....and even less if you model American diesels...      ...but I don't expect - or need - the Guild to cater for that anyway. 

It does make me smile though when the publicity hype for Guildex promises "everything" for the O Scale modeller will be there. Not for me, it won't. But I still go, because I do dabble in UK O as well.

 

The Guild website defines 0 as 1:43.5/7mm, and thus seems to indicate that it is British 0.

[F-UnitMad]

18 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

The Guild website defines 0 as 1:43.5/7mm, and thus seems to indicate that it is British 0.

Yes, it's a British society, hence why I said

36 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

....and even less if you model American diesels...      ...but I don't expect - or need - the Guild to cater for that anyway. 

...

My comment re "everything" was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but based on the fact that British (1:43.5) American (1:48) and European (1:45) are all known as O Scale, regardless of exact ratio.

 

Re the terms 'scale' and 'gauge', in the USA "O Scale" refers to 2-rail models; "O Gauge" refers to 3-rail, which is predominant over there, as the likes of Lionel never stopped making 3-rail O. 

I suspect that is of very little interest whatsoever to most people either on here, or Guild members!!

[Happy Hippo]

46 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

....and even less if you model American diesels...      ...but I don't expect - or need - the Guild to cater for that anyway. 

It does make me smile though when the publicity hype for Guildex promises "everything" for the O Scale modeller will be there. Not for me, it won't. But I still go, because I do dabble in UK O as well.

To be fair at Guildex 2019 there was an On2 model railway being displayed.

 

So although it was not a US outline diesel railway it was  still American and narrow gauge!

 

I suppose the G0G don't really like US outline stuff as British '0' is 1:43.5, whilst American '0' is 1;48.

 

I've recently picked up on what is being referred to in the US as P48, which would be their equivelent of Scale7.

 

But is does beg the question as to where does the G0G stop when it comes to support  0 gauge modelling?  As has been pointed out previously, the narrow gauge fraternity are well catered for by the 7 mm NGA, but there are those with more arcane habits such as South African, and Australian railways;  We must also not forget those who model European railways.

 

Does the G0G need to cater for these modellers, or do they get left to their own devices or join a more specialist society or association?

 

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Happy Hippo
Just read F Mad's entry regarding scales!

[Zomboid]

I'm not a prospective member of the GOG since I don't have any modelling interest in the scale/ gauge, but if I were then I'd be thoroughly put off by the website putting seemingly everything behind a paywall.

 

I don't see any issue with having special members only sections with special content, but there's very little on the outward facing website to entice me to pay to see what's inside.

 

From what I've read here, there seems to be a suggestion that it's a bit cliquey, steam focused and elitist. It's for the society to decide what its purpose is, and how broad it wants to be. There's nothing inherently wrong with being specialised to people who model prototype X to fidelity level Y, and there's nothing wrong with being aimed at a broader group of interests. But it should be honest with itself about who it's for, and if it's for people who want to model steam trains to high levels of visual fidelity, be clear about that, and to use an Americanism, own it.

 

If it wants to have a wider appeal then it needs to both present that image, and deliver on it when sometime comes along to a meeting with a 1960s clockwork Hornby tinplate interest.

[009 micro modeller]

14 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Yes, it's a British society, hence why I said

My comment re "everything" was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but based on the fact that British (1:43.5) American (1:48) and European (1:45) are all known as O Scale, regardless of exact ratio.

 

Re the terms 'scale' and 'gauge', in the USA "O Scale" refers to 2-rail models; "O Gauge" refers to 3-rail, which is predominant over there, as the likes of Lionel never stopped making 3-rail O. 

I suspect that is of very little interest whatsoever to most people either on here, or Guild members!!

 

But equally appealing to a wider definition of ‘0 scale’ could potentially be useful. As an aside, I presume P48 standard gauge would actually have to be narrower than 32mm.

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, fail safe said:

Agree with all you say except just to pick up on the gauge itself for the benefit of those in other scales,  for nearly everyone, it is 32mm track gauge and has always been so. It's only S7 that is different at 33mm track gauge. S7 is only modelled by a very small group of people who want to achieve nearer to dead scale track standards.

 

Many thanks fail safe - I stand corrected.  Being a 2mm scale modeller I was going on what Ravenser said earlier, which implied that there were multiple gauge issues within the main G0G:

 

On 14/07/2020 at 13:12, Ravenser said:

GOG's remit is complicated by what looks to this outsider like a breakdown in the traditional wheel and track standards for finescale Gauge O , which different factions arguing for gauges of 31.2mm, 31.5mm , 32.0mm and 33.0mm. The strict purists have "done a P4" and set up S7S in emulation - I think Bob Essery, a key figure in the P4 schism, was involved with S7.

 

(and I see that Ravenser was the poster I referenced earlier, who mentioned the P4 schism characters moving to 0.)

 

Richard

[H2O]

I have an intetest in O with a plank / inglenook model in the pipeline. As for joining I can't see too much of an advantage to me. The apparent lack of transparency of spending would also put me off joining.  If large sums can be spent without publishing details then it is hard to see if the right path is being taken.

For a rejuvination what springs to mind is the punchline about being lost: "If I wanted to get there I wouldn't start from here."

It seems the GOG have done much to keep the scale alive and members who have done so should be congratulated. An anual O gauge related show is also very worthwhile and should be promoted while financially viable.

I think O gauge used to be (is?) called the 'senior scale' and some of the stories in this topic seem to say 'seniority' has played a part in the guild's past.  For good or ill it is now a more equally well supported scale to choose to model in and should be viewed as such.

As for the name, I think 'guild' gives the impression you already need to be an expert to be a member.

My 2p worth, YMMV.

 

[F-UnitMad]

There's been US O standard gauge at Guildex before, and German, and of course a couple of years ago that fantastic layout from Australia. So it does beg the question, how much of  the scale does the Guild want to support?

Matters arising -  I bet that Australian layout didn't help the expenses sheet !! And, yes, P48 is narrower than 32mm gauge. It's 29.s.omething mm. Not sure off the top of my head

[fail safe]

44 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

It's for the society to decide what its purpose is, and how broad it wants to be.

 

Yes you are right, it is up to a society to decide. In this case I think that is one of their problems, they can't decide.  

 

From what I can see it looks like they have become very general interest and are trying to cater for everyone that models in 7mm scale from course scale to scale 7. Nothing wrong with that in principle but they don't attract the younger modeller or those who might specifically model say, the modern post-steam railway, because from what I've heard their membership is average 65 to 75+  year olds mostly modelling steam, so they are really worried about the future with a lack of younger people joining.  I think its possible thats why MIOG was created, and just on Facebook etc.

[StuartMc]

I noticed with amusement this letter in a 1995 Model Railway Illustrated - clearly this same debate has been going on for 25 years!

[009 micro modeller]

10 minutes ago, StuartMc said:

I noticed with amusement this letter in a 1995 Model Railway Illustrated - clearly this same debate has been going on for 25 years!

 

I notice a distinction is seemingly made here between officials (committee?) and ordinary members. Edit: or not members perhaps - it just says ‘0-gaugers.’

Edited July 15, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[Talltim]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

 And, yes, P48 is narrower than 32mm gauge. It's 29.s.omething mm. Not sure off the top of my head

1.177” 

 

 

 

 

 

29.9mm

[Arun Sharma]

2 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

 

Matters arising -  I bet that Australian layout didn't help the expenses sheet !! And, yes, P48 is narrower than 32mm gauge. It's 29.s.omething mm. Not sure off the top of my head

Regarding the Australian layout that was invited to the 60th anniversary celebration of the G0G - Yes, there was a grant from the G0G central funds but there were also significant donations from individual interested members. "£50 here, £60 there, sooner or later you're talking real money" - as one might say!

[MarcD]

I'm of the opinion that we are at the same point at the Peoples Front of Judea, "What have the Romans done for us?" Well........  But that is in the past perhaps the question should be "What could they do for me?"

 

As both a 7mm modeller and a manufacture of 7mm stock I get to look at this from 2 angles. I should firstly say that I'm not a member, but before I turned to manufacturing kits and stock, I was. I am however, a member of the S7 group. But my father is a member, of the Guild, so I get to see the gazette second hand.

 

From a small manufacture's point of view. 80% of our trade occurs at GOG or GOG sponsored shows. So with out the shows I don't have a business. I do get an amount of free advertisement in the new products area of the gazette which also helps. 

 

From a personal, modeller's, point of view I don't get anything, for me, out of it. The discounts I could get with the likes of Slaters I get with being a trader and being a S7 member. I see the gazette secondhand and I already pay to get into shows as a trader so I don't need to buy entrance tickets. The S7 forum is hosted by Western Thunder so its accessible to all and what I have heard about some of thing said on the Guild forum I'm glad I haven't got access to it.

 

I came into 7mm modelling to get away from RTR mass produced stock that all looked the same and IMHO I'm probably not alone in this. This might not be sounding to relevant but we as a hobby need to encourage people to pass on their skills to the next generation, as without this the hobby may just change its name to the large train set club.  Perhaps instead saying the Guild should drop the Guild from its name we should be looking too bring peoples skills up. Anyone can open a box and stick to contents onto a piece of track.  Surly becoming a master crafts person is the thing to aspire too, rather than saying that its something to get rid of. So should we be selling  the demonstrators to people who are coming to shows, making hints and tips video clips so we give the people the confidence to say "I don't need to have just have bought models on my layout. I could build a wagon from a kit, and now I've done that I could try that." 

 

IMHO the major roll for the guild is to encourage "Up Skilling" and demonstrate that this is not just an Old Boys Club run for people who want to run A3s and A4s round a large test track. If things continue as they are and 7mm turns into the Large OO Train Set Club I for one will be looking for a new things to do. Regardless of what the Guild is called.

 

Marc

[Mike Bellamy]

7 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

So somewhere, the GOG have got the sums for the shows wrong. Whether they are paying more than other places for a venue, not charging enough for trade stands, have too many "hangers on" claiming expenses or all of the above and maybe other factors.

 

 

3 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

 . . . people feel that Telford relies too much on subsidy from membership fees in general, or is it more specifically that they think committee members and others are taking advantage?

 

 

These were questions that were asked many times on the Guild Forum without any satisfactory explanation and led to a number of very heated arguments which ultimately resulted in a prominent forum user being banned by the forum management. One of the outcomes was the creation of the 'Reform Group'.

.

[MarcD]

Mike 

All I can say to the pricing of the trade stands at shows if the price was any higher I for one would be put off attending as I would be working for the Guild rather than myself. When at most shows electricity is included in the price and then its £15+ per day at the guild shows there is someone making a lot of money some were and if its not the guild then its has to be the venues.

 

Marc

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, Furness Wagon said:

Mike 

All I can say to the pricing of the trade stands at shows if the price was any higher I for one would be put off attending as I would be working for the Guild rather than myself. When at most shows electricity is included in the price and then its £15+ per day at the guild shows there is someone making a lot of money some were and if its not the guild then its has to be the venues.

 

Marc

 

Apologies for going O/T

 

IME, It's only the large venues that charge for electricity - such as The NEC, SECC, TIC, etc edit: (Above and beyond it being included in an overall hire charge for say a school hall or sports centre)

The cost of providing such a service is pretty much dictated by the venue. There are no alternatives but to use the venue's appointed sub-contractor.

I've been to other trade shows at the NEC on a company stand, the cost of a 3-phase 50A supply was eye-watering.

 

In the case of Warley NEC, the power supplies for layouts and demonstrators are covered by the organisers (Warley MRC), but the trader supplies are not.

 

They (NEC) were even quoting £700 for a dedicated wi-fi link for 2 days at the NEC Warley show! (Instead of using the heavily overloaded free public service.)

Edited July 15, 2020 by newbryford

[MarcD]

That's what I suspected.

At least dick Turpin had a mask on when he robbed you.

Marc

[bbishop]

4 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

There's been US O standard gauge at Guildex before, and German,

 

That was mine!  And there is more German in 2021.  Bill