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LSL Blue Pullman HST


jools1959
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1 hour ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

and ruin the classic Kenneth Grange front end? I don't agree.

 

Maybe so - but if it is meant to look like a Blue Pullman fitting buffers would be a logical (and I operationally sensible) step especially as I doubt any of the latest loco types running in Britain have ever been tested with an HST drawbar.

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3 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

and ruin the classic Kenneth Grange front end? I don't agree.

 

 

I would look more like the blue pullman with red on it , normally I wouldn't want buffers at all . Also with buffers it's easier to haul 

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On 16/07/2021 at 23:44, newbryford said:

Rumours of a shunting incident at LSL Crewe earlier today....

Saturday's Heart of Wales Pullman now has a green Staycation 43058 in place of 43055.

 

Correct, caused by a problem that a few visiting drivers have mentioned. Too much stock on site to safely shunt around, there was a reason that coaching stock was kept at the carriage sheds and not on the diesel depot in BR days. The LSL site is too full for its own good and this is not only my view as I have said

Edited by 25901
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LSL not having a good time this weekend as the ECS for the Staycation Express tomorrow has failed at Warrington and returned to Crewe.

 

edit: but has since made a second successful attempt to reach Carlisle.

 

Edited by newbryford
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25 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

And 43058 failed too leaving a single power car to propel the train up Sugarloaf (or not).


Definitely not ! Came to a halt at Cynhorgy waiting a fitter to attend. Finally got going again two and a half hours down and never recovered ... railtour standard time! Sources say it Got to Stockport and ran directly in to Piccadilly rather than going around the houses to Victoria and Preston, Engineering works due on published route,

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4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Maybe so - but if it is meant to look like a Blue Pullman fitting buffers would be a logical (and I operationally sensible) step especially as I doubt any of the latest loco types running in Britain have ever been tested with an HST drawbar.

That's probably the same reason the original Blue Pullman had buffers in the first place.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Quite how the TOCs kept these troublesome HSTs going day in day out I don't know

 

With spare locomotives, regular spare parts supplies, constant daily use leading to full time proactive routine engineering regimes, even then occasional failures still occurred.

 

its good to see the skill of Leeds being used though, they know them better than anyone.

 

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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On 17/07/2021 at 10:42, russ p said:

It would look better with buffers so maybe time to fit them 

 

20 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

and ruin the classic Kenneth Grange front end? I don't agree.

 

Its meant to be a blue pullman, not a HST, so buffers would be more appropriate.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

With spare locomotives, regular spare parts supplies, constant daily use leading to full time proactive routine engineering regimes, even then occasional failures still occurred.

 

its good to see the skill of Leeds being used though, they know them better than anyone.

 

 

 

 

It is easier, but more expensive, to keep a machine in good order compared to minimum working order.

 

Prototypes illustrate another issue. The LMS Turbomotive spent long periods out of use after failures. The failures themselves did not seem any more frequent than for a typical locomotive, but it was not possible to just swap in a spare because they had to be made as required. For a black 5, it would have been practical to keep 1 or 2 spares of virtually everything which can fail.

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

With spare locomotives, regular spare parts supplies, constant daily use leading to full time proactive routine engineering regimes, even then occasional failures still occurred.

 

its good to see the skill of Leeds being used though, they know them better than anyone.

 

 

 

Over the years the HST fleet went through lots of 'bad' periods with availability falling through the floor and numerous failures in traffic.  I remember at one time on the Western that if some of the sets actually got into traffic in weather of the sort we are currently experiencing with both engines working it would be miraculous if that was still the case at the end of the day and equally it would be surprising if all those that entered traffic in the morning on one engine still had it working at the end of the day.  

 

The early days were fraught with numerous problems but gradually mods and developing depot, and  fleet engineering, experience greatly improved matters although englnes still dropped out in traffic for various reasons particularly when ambient temperatures were very high.

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2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Over the years the HST fleet went through lots of 'bad' periods with availability falling through the floor and numerous failures in traffic.  I remember at one time on the Western that if some of the sets actually got into traffic in weather of the sort we are currently experiencing with both engines working it would be miraculous if that was still the case at the end of the day and equally it would be surprising if all those that entered traffic in the morning on one engine still had it working at the end of the day.  

 

The early days were fraught with numerous problems but gradually mods and developing depot, and  fleet engineering, experience greatly improved matters although englnes still dropped out in traffic for various reasons particularly when ambient temperatures were very high.

They have moved on a lot since those days, by understanding how cooler groups needed to be maintained (after some false starts) and then later inventing the Brush cooler group to replace the original Marston units which took them to the top of the learning curve. You are comparing what existed in the 1970's and 1980's with what exists now, which in engineering terms is like saying "I'm not buying a 2015 Ford Focus because my 1975 Ford Cortina used to break down a lot".

 

What the HST power cars in the LSL fleet probably will suffer from most is lack of regular use (we shall see if the Staycation performs better) and being divorced from Neville Hill, which had become very good at what they did (GWR depots should stop reading now) rather than bodge it up and kick it out again. They were helped by a healthy spare power car availability, and by the ability to limp home on one- not an option for LSL and especially not when a mountain stands between you and home as it did on Saturday.

 

Putting buffers on simply to replicate "the Blue Pullman"? Why not just replace the whole cab if you are that fussed about it. I'm still bewildered as to why you would want the most successful diesel train ever built to look like the least successful one because the passage of 50 years has dulled the memory, but its their money. 

 

Lastly modern locos with drop head buckeyes (class 66, 67 etc) need the adapter fitting to attach to HST, it was standard kit on the ECML ones and every single one of those bar 43208/239/290/299/302 is currently parked in a field somewhere so there should be about 25 of them doing nothing much!

 

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I think there is an obvious solution you are all overlooking.

Repaint the class 89 blue and stick that on the other end.

It has buffers so will look exactly like the original and then you can run anywhere.

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54 minutes ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

They have moved on a lot since those days, by understanding how cooler groups needed to be maintained (after some false starts) and then later inventing the Brush cooler group to replace the original Marston units which took them to the top of the learning curve. You are comparing what existed in the 1970's and 1980's with what exists now, which in engineering terms is like saying "I'm not buying a 2015 Ford Focus because my 1975 Ford Cortina used to break down a lot".

 

What the HST power cars in the LSL fleet probably will suffer from most is lack of regular use (we shall see if the Staycation performs better) and being divorced from Neville Hill, which had become very good at what they did (GWR depots should stop reading now) rather than bodge it up and kick it out again. They were helped by a healthy spare power car availability, and by the ability to limp home on one- not an option for LSL and especially not when a mountain stands between you and home as it did on Saturday.

 

Putting buffers on simply to replicate "the Blue Pullman"? Why not just replace the whole cab if you are that fussed about it. I'm still bewildered as to why you would want the most successful diesel train ever built to look like the least successful one because the passage of 50 years has dulled the memory, but its their money. 

 

Lastly modern locos with drop head buckeyes (class 66, 67 etc) need the adapter fitting to attach to HST, it was standard kit on the ECML ones and every single one of those bar 43208/239/290/299/302 is currently parked in a field somewhere so there should be about 25 of them doing nothing much!

 

For goodness sake.  i know darned well that HSTs moved - after all I was associated with them an an operator for a good part of their life.  And obviously you don't need a completely new front end in order to fit the buffers which they were actually designed to take if/when the need arose (which of course it did for some of them at one time).  Anyone who has had to struggle in a real life situation out on the railway to couple an HST to anything else  would welcome the provision of buffers and ordinary drawgear with open arms even in broad daylight on a nice day (and i can assure you that it's a darned sight harder in the dark with slippery mucky ballast underfoot).

 

And was the Blue Pullman 'the least successful diesel train ever built'?  I think not because not withstanding the poor ride for most of them the passengers kept on coming back to the trains which ran at the right times of day, the standard of catering was excellent, and in Standard class the seats were perfectly comfortable and would put an 80X unit to shame.  I know they had their engine problems but then over a similar lifespan so did HSTs and the HSTs weren't seen as a stopgap so got masssive design and development support and improvement that the BPs never got.

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5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

For goodness sake.  i know darned well that HSTs moved - after all I was associated with them an an operator for a good part of their life.  And obviously you don't need a completely new front end in order to fit the buffers which they were actually designed to take if/when the need arose (which of course it did for some of them at one time).  Anyone who has had to struggle in a real life situation out on the railway to couple an HST to anything else  would welcome the provision of buffers and ordinary drawgear with open arms even in broad daylight on a nice day (and i can assure you that it's a darned sight harder in the dark with slippery mucky ballast underfoot).

 

And was the Blue Pullman 'the least successful diesel train ever built'?  I think not because not withstanding the poor ride for most of them the passengers kept on coming back to the trains which ran at the right times of day, the standard of catering was excellent, and in Standard class the seats were perfectly comfortable and would put an 80X unit to shame.  I know they had their engine problems but then over a similar lifespan so did HSTs and the HSTs weren't seen as a stopgap so got masssive design and development support and improvement that the BPs never got.

Hi Mike,

 

The thing with the Blue Pullmans that isn't always acknowledged is that the power cars had pretty much the same engine and traction equipment as those most lamentable class 29's from North British. Those particular locomotives were not that sparkling even after being rebuilt into class 21's !

 

Lets face it a pair of them with a set of six Mk2's coupled between wouldn't be expected to go very well, unlike the Edinburgh-Glasgow push pull class 27's.

 

Gibbo.

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4 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Mike,

 

The thing with the Blue Pullmans that isn't always acknowledged is that the power cars had pretty much the same engine and traction equipment as those most lamentable class 29's from North British. Those particular locomotives were not that sparkling even after being rebuilt into class 21's !

 

Lets face it a pair of them with a set of six Mk2's coupled between wouldn't be expected to go very well, unlike the Edinburgh-Glasgow push pull class 27's.

 

Gibbo.

 

Weren't the MAN engines actually built by MAN rather than license built ones of the NBLs and obviously the rest of the powercar didn't go near the NBL spanner of doom! 

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1 minute ago, russ p said:

 

Weren't the MAN engines actually built by MAN rather than license built ones of the NBLs and obviously the rest of the powercar didn't go near the NBL spanner of doom! 

Hi Russ,

 

That I dIdn't know but mostly a similar specification all the same.

 

Gibbo.

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2 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Russ,

 

That I dIdn't know but mostly a similar specification all the same.

 

Gibbo.

 

Evening Gibbo

 

They were indeed very similar even using the same power controller but it could be that they were better built and designed which gave them better availability 

 

Russ

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9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

its good to see the skill of Leeds being used though, they know them better than anyone.

 

Both of us know one of the main stay fitters (now retired) and is one of the most respected men in diesel preservation and owner of D832

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2 hours ago, russ p said:

 

Evening Gibbo

 

They were indeed very similar even using the same power controller but it could be that they were better built and designed which gave them better availability 

 

Russ


The books suggest NBL had problems in both translating German metric measurements in to imperial and in sourcing materials to match German specifications. Not a good formula for reliability if correct....

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22 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

For goodness sake.  i know darned well that HSTs moved - after all I was associated with them an an operator for a good part of their life.  And obviously you don't need a completely new front end in order to fit the buffers which they were actually designed to take if/when the need arose (which of course it did for some of them at one time).  Anyone who has had to struggle in a real life situation out on the railway to couple an HST to anything else  would welcome the provision of buffers and ordinary drawgear with open arms even in broad daylight on a nice day (and i can assure you that it's a darned sight harder in the dark with slippery mucky ballast underfoot).

 

And was the Blue Pullman 'the least successful diesel train ever built'?  I think not because not withstanding the poor ride for most of them the passengers kept on coming back to the trains which ran at the right times of day, the standard of catering was excellent, and in Standard class the seats were perfectly comfortable and would put an 80X unit to shame.  I know they had their engine problems but then over a similar lifespan so did HSTs and the HSTs weren't seen as a stopgap so got masssive design and development support and improvement that the BPs never got.

The drawgear/no drawgear thing comes down to aesthetics vs the occasional operational convenience. The chaps on the depot managed to put up HST drawbars with no fuss in 30 seconds, but I accept its different for someone doing it for the first time ever in real life in a pressure situation out on the mainline where underfoot conditions are less than ideal. The HST to HST bar is actually far easier, so we would always prefer a back-to-back pair as rescue locos vs a 47 or whatever.

 

The original Blue Pullman was an unmitigated disaster. What happened inside the carriages delivered by uniformed staff has nothing at all to do with the technical quality and reliability of the train. You could fit tables of four and a kitchen area in a Pacer, but you've still got a Pacer, albeit one with tablecloths and a priority limited stop pathing....

 

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16 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Mike,

 

The thing with the Blue Pullmans that isn't always acknowledged is that the power cars had pretty much the same engine and traction equipment as those most lamentable class 29's from North British. Those particular locomotives were not that sparkling even after being rebuilt into class 21's !

 

Lets face it a pair of them with a set of six Mk2's coupled between wouldn't be expected to go very well, unlike the Edinburgh-Glasgow push pull class 27's.

 

Gibbo.

Although the interesting thing is (albeit with a fitter travelling regularly on some workings) they were reasonably reliable in everyday traffic.  I travelled on one particular train every Friday for about 5/6 weeks in succession and it was always on time leaving Cardiff and even over the fairly arduous trip through the Severn Tunnel and the subsequent 18 miles of steady climbing  up to the summitBadminton (mostly at 1 in 300 but with some stretches as steep as 1 in 68) it didn't lose time - it wouldn't have done that running on one engine.

 

Similarly on the occasion I had a cab ride over the same route the Canton Driver knew exactly what he was at and gained sufficient time in excess of the Recovery and 'Circle' time between Newport and Badminton to get into the Bristol Pullman' path from Wootton Bassett and an early arrival at Paddington.   The Driver said he could manage that every time on that particular train and get ahead of the Bristol at Wootton Bassett unless there happened to be a TROS    A train with 'poor' performance couldn't have managed that consistently.

 

The MAN engines were notorious for throwing oil (although that trait was also present in some of the original German versions so I was told) and they definitely had reliability problems which meant that failures and maintenance delays led to substitution by the 'Wells Fargo' set on the Western.  But when they were working properly the trains could turn in a good running. performance.   I can't remember many delays arising from problems on the traisn but I do know that when the 'short' Oxford workings were introduced they did suffer from cancellations.

 

But overall the point is that during their relatively short lives they never received much in the way of development and the sort of attention that was given a few years later to the HST fleet in order to solve its various initial problems.

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I'm sure I've read that one of the tasks of the travelling fitter was to start/stop any auxiliary engines as required - IIRC they powered the heating/air-conditioning among other things and the load varied according to passenger loading, ambient temperature etc.

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