RMweb Premium Popular Post macgeordie Posted May 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted May 15, 2021 As those of you who have seen my work in the past will be aware of, I rather like 6 wheel vans and it was suggested I look at the GWR diagram S13 vans. I did a bit of research and came up with the following basic information. These insulated fish vans were designed by the GWR as diagram S13 although they weren’t actually built until 1948 by BR. Fifty vans were ordered as a GWR carriage Lot, this was Lot 1718 and the vans were to have the running numbers 3301 – 3350 which became W3301 – W3350. They ran on a standard 6 wheel carriage chassis design dating back forty years. They were 31ft over the headstocks and just under 9ft wide. The vans were fully insulated on all the walls, roof and floor, cooling for the load being Dri-Ice (solid carbon dioxide) loaded into the four Ice boxes situated on the roof and therefore there were no ventilation vents anywhere on the body. The roof was accessed at either end by a ladder leading up to the walkway on the roof itself. These vans never carried a GWR livery, they were painted white from new although some sources say they were first painted cream and later repainted in white. They retained this livery but were probably never cleaned so were pretty grubby most of their lives. They were used initionally on the Western Region working from the fishing ports and were later familiar on the Eastern region and many were later transferred to the Scottish Region working from Aberdeen or Fishguard where they were in service until about 1969. After a bit of thought I decided to have a go at this one and here are a couple of photos of one my test builds. This is the photo I based the livery on, I can't remember which book I got it from. It seemed like a fairly straightforward project at first but as I got deeper into it I found it was a lot more complex than I imagined. There is so much detail on the roof that I ended up needing three sheets of etches to do it justice. I usually do the chassis in 15 thou nickel silver and the body in 12 thou brass but the detailing parts for the roof were quite fragile so I ended up making them in 12 thou nickel silver for strength and rigidity. Nickel silver is lovely stuff to work with but it is a lot more expensive than brass so this isn't going to be a cheap kit unfortunately. I'll post more photos as the final test build progresses. I'm struggling a bit at the moment, I've ruptured an Achilles tendon so I'm in plaster and on crutches, bummer Ian 11 2 2 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iak Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 Yet more etched loveliness Ian, I shall flag interest immediately. Sympathies about the injury... 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 Masterpiece work again Ian. Looks lovely. Now, once you have worked out the kinks in 4mm, how about a 7mm version? Commiserations about the tendon. John 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium macgeordie Posted May 15, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 15, 2021 Nice thought, but no chance John, this one would cost a fortune in 7mm scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 Ha ha yes, I suppose so. Still, I'd love to build it. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hamlin Posted May 16, 2021 Share Posted May 16, 2021 Great choice for another interesting prototype Ian. Please count me in for at least 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium macgeordie Posted May 16, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 16, 2021 Got a bit done, the body is assembled. The overlays are fitted for the ribbing on the van ends. and finally the doors are now in place. The overlays and ribbing for the sides is the next job. Ian 9 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry lamb Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 I will be very happy with a pair of these vans Ian please. I will Email you my details as I have moved home over the last year and I cannot remember if you have my new address. Looking forward to building stock again now I have enough of the old repaired track from my original test track to put them through the 'humps, bumps and bends' in my new workshop which is the home of my latest trainset! Cheers. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Lewis Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 Does anyone know when these began to appear on the Eastern/Scottish Regions? The only photo I recall seeing is the one reproduced above which is at Millerhill in 1963. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium macgeordie Posted May 17, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 17, 2021 Sides now complete with all the strapping, ribs and handles fitted. The basic chassis is now assembled, I need to fit the running chassis and the all the brake gear bits next. My apologies for the poor quality photos, but due to the problem with my leg I am having to take them sat down at my workbench which isn't ideal. Ian 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard of the Moor Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 11 hours ago, Tim Lewis said: Does anyone know when these began to appear on the Eastern/Scottish Regions? The only photo I recall seeing is the one reproduced above which is at Millerhill in 1963. Thornton in 1963, possibly dropped off as a cripple. Dunno when they were first used, but there are quite a few pics of them in Scotland once you start looking. 6 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted May 18, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2021 Commiserations on the gammy leg Ian, but before the schoolmaster comes along, I think you should be sitting at your workbench! Do you know how long these lasted in service by any chance?, I've got 1969 in my head, so there could be another addition to the Macgeordie roundtuit box! Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 (edited) There's a picture of one of these at somewhere like Sudbury in the 1950s (in one of the South Anglia albums), so there's another lot of modellers who can justify one. Edit - Aspects of East Anglian Steam Volume 3, J. D. Mann. Irritatingly no page numbers, but it's four pages after the midpoint of the book. K3 61970 passing through Trowse with a goods for Wensum. The Insixfish is the first vehicle behind the engine, too far away to see marking or detail but clearly identifiable. Edited May 19, 2021 by jwealleans 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium macgeordie Posted May 18, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said: Commiserations on the gammy leg Ian, but before the schoolmaster comes along, I think you should be sitting at your workbench! Do you know how long these lasted in service by any chance?, I've got 1969 in my head, so there could be another addition to the Macgeordie roundtuit box! Mike. 1969 is the date I have read, I mentioned it in the first post above. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
watfordtmc Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 The Don Rowland image you show comes from the Cheona Publications’: British Railways Vans vol. 2 (Ref 1), but had been published earlier in David Larkin’s Bradford Barton volume on parcels vans (Ref 2). There is also a rather small Swindon official of W3302 (no suffix at the time) in the ‘Tome’ (Ref 3), as an “Insixfish” and without the ‘chalk boards’ on the doors visible in Don Rowland’s image, along with a copy of the diagram. There are a couple of not very useful images in early 1960’s issues of Trains Illustrated, showing a van in the formation of a Milford Haven to Paddington service – along with an FM container loaded onto a former Southern Railway Conflat D, both marshalled between the engine and passenger vehicles. I don’t have a copy of David Larkin’s subsequent Kestrel book on parcels vehicles, so can’t comment on whether there are any further images in that (And with Amazon currently quoting £906 for a copy – yes NINE HUNDRED POUNDS – I’m not likely to acquire a copy either!). I looked in the relevant volume of Longworth (Ref 4) to see if there was any information on dates, to no avail. Longworth notes the transfer of the batch 3301 – 3329, except nos. 3312 & 3328, to the Scottish Region but no date is quoted. He does note nos. 3302/3306/3308/3309/3313/3316/3319 & 3325 as being withdrawn between 03/1963 and 09/1964 though. I’m not sure if these are month dates or railway ‘period’ dates. No withdrawal dates are quoted for any of the vehicles that remained on the Western Region. I have no confirmed information on dates, but offer the following speculations: By the early 1960’s the first pattern of LMS fish vans, based on a Midland Railway design, would be approaching the end of their lives, especially as quite a lot, if not all, were built on second-hand underframes in the first place. David Larkin (Ref 2) suggests that these LMS vans were withdrawn in “…the early 1960’s…” He also suggests that 6-wheeled vehicles were barred from passenger trains from 1959 but if this is so, it doesn’t appear to have applied to the S13’s, since his caption to the image of Sc3304W states: “…some were transferred to Scotland, where they were used on Aberdeen fish trains and also on passenger trains.” (My italics). My speculation is that the Scottish Region had identified a continuing need for vans to convey domestic fish traffic and due to diminishing fish traffic generally, it was found possible to transfer a number of the quite recently built, and insulated, S13’s to Scotland to replace withdrawn LMS vehicles. Inferring from the statement about the early LMS fish vans being withdrawn in “…the early 1960’s…” suggests that the transfer would have taken place, possibly by 1962, and obviously by 1963. Fish traffic by rail basically collapsed during the 1960’s. Ref 2 has images dated to 1969 of former ‘Blue Spot’ fish vans in traffic either as Insulated Vans or as SPV’s. So I think it’s a fairly safe assumption that the S13’s would not have been in traffic any later that 1969, and quite possibly withdrawn rather earlier, judging by the dates that Longworth quotes. David Larkin’s caption notes the S13’s “… were used until about 1969…”. References: 1. Railways in Profile Series No 11: British Railways Vans vol 2, Gamble G, Cheona Publications (Chinnor) 2000. 2. BR General Parcels Rolling Stock. A Pictorial Survey, Larkin D, D Bradford Barton 1978. Image p15. 3. GWR Goods Wagons (3rd Edition), Atkins A, Beard W, Tourret, Oxford Publishing Co (Ian Allan) 2013. Image p 351, diagram p 352. 4. British Railways Pre-Nationalisation Coaching Stock Volume 1 GWR & LNER, Longworth H, Crecy Publishing 2018. Looks a very nice model and I hope you're not on crutches for too long. Regards TMc 18/05/2021 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted May 18, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2021 6 hours ago, macgeordie said: 1969 is the date I have read, I mentioned it in the first post above. Ian So you did, apologies. I shall flagellate myself on the terrace under the 30 degree+ sunshine we currently have! Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Zero Gravitas Posted May 18, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2021 2 hours ago, watfordtmc said: The Don Rowland image you show comes from the Cheona Publications’: British Railways Vans vol. 2 (Ref 1), but had been published earlier in David Larkin’s Bradford Barton volume on parcels vans (Ref 2). There is also a rather small Swindon official of W3302 (no suffix at the time) in the ‘Tome’ (Ref 3), as an “Insixfish” and without the ‘chalk boards’ on the doors visible in Don Rowland’s image, along with a copy of the diagram. There are a couple of not very useful images in early 1960’s issues of Trains Illustrated, showing a van in the formation of a Milford Haven to Paddington service – along with an FM container loaded onto a former Southern Railway Conflat D, both marshalled between the engine and passenger vehicles. I don’t have a copy of David Larkin’s subsequent Kestrel book on parcels vehicles, so can’t comment on whether there are any further images in that (And with Amazon currently quoting £906 for a copy – yes NINE HUNDRED POUNDS – I’m not likely to acquire a copy either!). I looked in the relevant volume of Longworth (Ref 4) to see if there was any information on dates, to no avail. Longworth notes the transfer of the batch 3301 – 3329, except nos. 3312 & 3328, to the Scottish Region but no date is quoted. He does note nos. 3302/3306/3308/3309/3313/3316/3319 & 3325 as being withdrawn between 03/1963 and 09/1964 though. I’m not sure if these are month dates or railway ‘period’ dates. No withdrawal dates are quoted for any of the vehicles that remained on the Western Region. I have no confirmed information on dates, but offer the following speculations: By the early 1960’s the first pattern of LMS fish vans, based on a Midland Railway design, would be approaching the end of their lives, especially as quite a lot, if not all, were built on second-hand underframes in the first place. David Larkin (Ref 2) suggests that these LMS vans were withdrawn in “…the early 1960’s…” He also suggests that 6-wheeled vehicles were barred from passenger trains from 1959 but if this is so, it doesn’t appear to have applied to the S13’s, since his caption to the image of Sc3304W states: “…some were transferred to Scotland, where they were used on Aberdeen fish trains and also on passenger trains.” (My italics). My speculation is that the Scottish Region had identified a continuing need for vans to convey domestic fish traffic and due to diminishing fish traffic generally, it was found possible to transfer a number of the quite recently built, and insulated, S13’s to Scotland to replace withdrawn LMS vehicles. Inferring from the statement about the early LMS fish vans being withdrawn in “…the early 1960’s…” suggests that the transfer would have taken place, possibly by 1962, and obviously by 1963. Fish traffic by rail basically collapsed during the 1960’s. Ref 2 has images dated to 1969 of former ‘Blue Spot’ fish vans in traffic either as Insulated Vans or as SPV’s. So I think it’s a fairly safe assumption that the S13’s would not have been in traffic any later that 1969, and quite possibly withdrawn rather earlier, judging by the dates that Longworth quotes. David Larkin’s caption notes the S13’s “… were used until about 1969…”. References: 1. Railways in Profile Series No 11: British Railways Vans vol 2, Gamble G, Cheona Publications (Chinnor) 2000. 2. BR General Parcels Rolling Stock. A Pictorial Survey, Larkin D, D Bradford Barton 1978. Image p15. 3. GWR Goods Wagons (3rd Edition), Atkins A, Beard W, Tourret, Oxford Publishing Co (Ian Allan) 2013. Image p 351, diagram p 352. 4. British Railways Pre-Nationalisation Coaching Stock Volume 1 GWR & LNER, Longworth H, Crecy Publishing 2018. Looks a very nice model and I hope you're not on crutches for too long. Regards TMc 18/05/2021 In Larkin's "BR Parcels and Passenger-Rated Stock" Volume 2, there's a undated picture of Sc3323W on page 25, postulating that it may have been condemned at the time the photograph was taken. And don't worry too much about the £900 - I understand that in order to avoid having to take down the listing and then re-create it when they get new stock, it's a common ruse to set the price at a level that nobody would pay in the meantime. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium macgeordie Posted May 18, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2021 The running chassis is now complete. I've also got all of the brake gear fitted but this isn't a particularly good photo, 'must do better next time' Fitting the roof and all of it's associated paraphernalia will be the next job. Ian 6 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Zero Gravitas said: In Larkin's "BR Parcels and Passenger-Rated Stock" Volume 2, there's a undated picture of Sc3323W on page 25, postulating that it may have been condemned at the time the photograph was taken. And don't worry too much about the £900 - I understand that in order to avoid having to take down the listing and then re-create it when they get new stock, it's a common ruse to set the price at a level that nobody would pay in the meantime. Page 84 of David Larkin's Third volume of NPCCS on Kestrel has a photo of W3338W between two others at Clynderwen in September 1962. Two are clearly labelled 'Return to Fishguard Harbour'; a curious destination, as Fishguard (despite its name) didn't have much of a fishing fleet. More likely they were used for other Perishables traffic that had come from Ireland on the ferry. Siphon Js also found gainful employment on this. 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted May 19, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 19, 2021 8 hours ago, Fat Controller said: Page 84 of David Larkin's Third volume of NPCCS on Kestrel has a photo of W3338W between two others at Clynderwen in September 1962. Two are clearly labelled 'Return to Fishguard Harbour'; a curious destination, as Fishguard (despite its name) didn't have much of a fishing fleet. More likely they were used for other Perishables traffic that had come from Ireland on the ferry. Siphon Js also found gainful employment on this. I believe there was a lot of meat traffic from Ireland handled at Fishguard, maybe that's what the vans were used for? Mike. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 19, 2021 Share Posted May 19, 2021 4 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said: I believe there was a lot of meat traffic from Ireland handled at Fishguard, maybe that's what the vans were used for? Mike. There was a lot of containerised meat traffic, but I was told there was also a lot of rabbit traffic and also butter. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Asterix2012 Posted May 19, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 19, 2021 20 hours ago, Zero Gravitas said: In Larkin's "BR Parcels and Passenger-Rated Stock" Volume 2, there's a undated picture of Sc3323W on page 25, postulating that it may have been condemned at the time the photograph was taken. And don't worry too much about the £900 - I understand that in order to avoid having to take down the listing and then re-create it when they get new stock, it's a common ruse to set the price at a level that nobody would pay in the meantime. Some private sellers may have a punt on Amazon with a high price as there are no charges just to list and no limit on timescale Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium macgeordie Posted May 19, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 19, 2021 The roof is now in place, Along with the roof end valance. These are the parts which make up the roof walkway. The small sub frets carry the ribs which fit onto the lid of the ice box filler compartment. The two layers need to be soldered together after the legs are all bent to 90 degrees. I used a hold and fold to do all of the legs on one side at the same time. This is the walkway in place on the roof. I fixed the legs in place with my RSU but they can be sweated into place equally well. Next job is the van end roof access ladders and the ice boxes themselves. Ian 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Roger Sunderland Posted May 19, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 19, 2021 Beautiful Ian. Please put me down for 2, I think my GWR associates may be interested. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium macgeordie Posted May 20, 2021 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 20, 2021 I made the ladders for the van ends today, it's a simple fold up with rungs of 0.3mm wire. It fits into two small slots at the bottom of the van end and is soldered to the walkway at the top. The ice boxes were next, again a simple fold up job. The ribs need to be fitted and I have added a piece of 0.3mm wire to represent the mounting bolt. The boxes all fit into the slots in the roof. There is a small footstep to add to the solebar and another on the bufferbeam, but that's tomorrows job. Ian 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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