If you were starting a new rtr manufacturer...

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, stivesnick said:

 

 

Or how about developing a Moon or Mars Railway system 2100? This could have global appeal so increase potential sales volumes.  

 

 

Sounds like a Great Model Railway Tv Series Challenge...

 

That or a

 

Top Gear challenge... which OO gauge model can be rocket  propelled furthest as a projectile... i’ll vote for firing an  Azuma over the trees... who wants dibs on a TGV, ICE.. I bet the Acela will be rubbish, but comes with lots of special effects & noise.

Edited May 23, 2021 by adb968008

[Revolution Ben]

31 minutes ago, 47406 said:

... if there were for example a new Class 47 in the range £75-£85 i would buy, and in quantity. ...   At £150 a loco I don't buy. 

 

Could you do, for example, Duffs in the range of £75-£100 ? In terms of "Budget" I would hope to see a comparable-ish drive train to the competitors, front end and cab door handrails, correct details for flush cab fronts & 'Crewe-cuts', windshield wipers, correct boiler ports, and just generally looking like a Duff by today's standards. All the other finicky little stuff that either falls off or you can't figure out how to attach - totally optional. That would be my definition of "Budget". Hornby's Class 47s with the Lima body and 5-pole motor are a little lacking I think. The price point is right, but the product is a little lacking.

 

Hi there,

 

If we assume that by 'buying in quantity' you mean two or more then your budget for this hypothetical purchase stretches to at least £150.  So I don't understand why you say you'd buy zero £150 locos, rather than just making do with fewer.

 

In the second paragraph I quote you reject existing models priced at £75-80 because they are 'a little lacking' (fair enough) and provide a list of the features and options you want.  So what you want is locos with all the features, but priced as if they had none of the features? 

 

Is this a realistic position to take, or are we expecting to have our cake and eat it again?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[PatB]

The mention of static plastic kits is interesting, and possibly one worth pursuing. Airfix did it decades ago, and Revell have been mentioned. It occurs to me that plastic kit modellers are quite happy to pay substantial sums for large, high quality kits, and spend many hours of highly skilled work to put them together.

 

Could this market be exploited? Perhaps not for 4mm scale, but 0 and upwards might be an option. If there were enough static kit modellers out there who, whilst not specifically railway modellers, considered a large static loco kit a satisfyingly challenging and attractive thing to build, it might go some way towards amortising the tooling costs for much of a motorised kit. As Phil has said, motorising represents a challenge but, surely in this day and age, not an insurmountable one. 

 

But this thread is supposed to be about r-t-r so I'll shut up now. 

[Michael Hodgson]

49 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Sounds like a Great Model Railway Tv Series Challenge...

 

That or a

 

Top Gear challenge... which OO gauge model can be rocket  propelled furthest as a projectile... i’ll vote for firing an  Azuma over the trees... who wants dibs on a TGV, ICE.. I bet the Acela will be rubbish, but comes with lots of special effects & noise.

There's already a 4mm model for that line ...

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274702961333?hash=item3ff5928ab5:g:CewAAOSwJ~xgbC-B

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Jonboy said:

It was 30 years ago that I started trying to get my parents to buy me a Hornby train set for any Xmas or birthday (having the Tomy Thomas vs Bertie racking set, most of the Thomas die cast models etc).

At that point it was by highlighting the single set in the local newsagents catalogues, woolworths or the argos catalog....when 5 or so years after that my parents had the money and bought my younger brother a set it was by taking him to Toysrus to choose from their  selection...

 

The decision to start making regular donations to osbournes in Abingdon, and Hattons via mail order (from model rail adverts) came after the non-specialist shop entry to the hobby.

 

 

As a child, by you own admission you didn't go trawling through dedicated model shops to satisfy your desire for model trains - you did it through toyshops or general retailers / department stores. Dedicated model shops didn't enter the equation till much later - most likely when you were an adult and as a consequence had the finances to buy for yourself.

 

Superficially Its not changed that much in 30 years , young people entering the hobby are not going usually be introduced into the hobby by traditional model shops (unless they have an experienced adult modeler within their family / circle of friends), such interest is most likely to be gained by having them on sale in Smyths toy superstore, Tesco, Amazon etc.

 

And THATS the problem - model railways are conspicuous by their absence in such places. Moreover those over the past 30 years many department stores or generalised which might have once had a 'toy section' have gone bust.

 

As a kid it certainly was a boon to have the likes of Gamley, Beaties and the Argos to supply RTR - but those days are long gone.

 

If there was significant demand amongst youngsters these days model railways would be stocked on the shelves of Tesco* like Lego sets are - but they aren't! In fact I am struggling to think of a 'mainstream' retailer which carries ANY model railway stuff - and they are not going to suddenly start stocking it simply because a new start up has come along with a 'basic' range of models. The profit simply isn't there to make it worth stocking.

 

 

* If you think about it, todays supermarkets selling everything from clothes to electrical goods and homewares - not just groceries) are probably the closest thing we have to the 'Woolworths' type shops of old

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by phil-b259

[Kris]

37 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

If there was significant demand amongst youngsters these days model railways would be stocked on the shelves of Tesco* like Lego sets are - but they aren't! In fact I am struggling to think of a 'mainstream' retailer which carries ANY model railway stuff - and they are not going to suddenly start stocking it simply because a new start up has come along with a 'basic' range of models. The profit simply isn't there to make it worth stocking.

 

Argos is the only main stream retailer who sell model railway items year round. Supermarkets do sell train sets but generally only at Christmas.  

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

This thread is part of that process. Development costs will vary from model to model. To take the Mk1 as an example, you get a whole range of models which share a lot of tooling.

 

I allowed for that.

 

7 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I am not familiar with Scale Trains. But I think that $200k figure would be inclusive of all aspects of "tooling" which you have as additional. Making the tool itself is not that expensive with modern technology.

 

It is indeed just the tooling that is in the $200k range.  ScaleTrains isn't the only one to provide rough figures, other have in the past as well.  And in the Rapido section (Rapido dangles Class 13 RTR thread) Chris (dibber25) of Model Rail indicated it was in the $500k+ range to bring a loco to market (your "all aspects" of research, design, tooling, production, etc).  Dealing direct with a Chinese factory could potentially reduce that somewhat but not to the cheap levels you seem to think.

 

7 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Finally, it is Hornby themselves who are pushing retailers in this direction. If retailers are to lose a major part of their turnover because they can't get product from Hornby, they have to replace that turnover with something else or their businesses will fail. On past track record, Bachmann are not about to step into the void and produce more.

 

The problem though is that Hornby continues to sell - currently through some other retailers as well as direct or through Amazon.  This means Hornby will take a large percentage of your potential sales because they have the brand awareness, making the economics of your "basic" line of product even worse than attempting it with no competition.

 

As I indicated in another post, a retailer wanting to deal with the Hornby fallout (either already happening to them or potentially a future risk) needs to look into other options than attempting to take on Hornby directly.  Could Hattons do it?  Probably - but most of the retailers don't have spare millions around.

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Yes we are tending to focus on how anyone else could compete in the current market, with or without Hornby, but realistically some sort of manufacturing innovation will more likely shake things up. Anything which allows production far cheaper than now, or far more detailed or different in some way, at a competitive retail price, will mean all the obvious good sellers are up for grabs again.

I'm not sure they necessarily would be. I doubt I'm the only one who has "filled his boots" over the past twenty years with multiples of all their favourites.

 

Apart from twenty-eight with the original and new identities, I still have another half-a-dozen duplicates of Hornby Bulleid Light Pacifics that are yet to be renamed! I also have "enough" Bachmann Mk1 and Hornby Pullman and Maunsell coaches to fill (at least twice over) any layout I'll ever have room for, and the only real gaps are the Dining Saloons of the latter ilk due later this year.

 

I doubt any new entrant is going to produce potential replacements that are sufficiently superior "layout coaches" to persuade me to trade them in. Even if I could buy them for the fifteen quid or so that (IIRC) I paid for the oldest Mk1s two decades ago, it wouldn't matter; I've already spent the money and I already have the coaches! 

 

My personal wish-list has shrunk (perhaps fortunately) in line with the space remaining to accommodate new purchases, and is probably way too "niche" by now for any new r-t-r producer to consider taking any of it on.

 

John

Edited May 23, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Kris said:

Argos is the only main stream retailer who sell model railway items year round. Supermarkets do sell train sets but generally only at Christmas.  

 

I dont know about anyone else, but as a parent in this house, most of our childs toys came from Amazon as a result of wishlists from TV or Youtube advertising.

 

Toy shops havent featured on the shopping list since toysrus went bust, even then it was to look first before writing to Santa.. because you guessed it..online was cheaper.

 

The world has changed since we were kids... Santa doesnt hang around his grotto in the toyshop anymore.. instead he rides a train or goes to the garden centre, and stops for a kebab on his way home.

 

No point protecting toyshops for new market entrants.. because the new market entrants shop online... toyshops are showrooms for wishlisting... as no kid gets everything they ask for, that wish list is a competition for budget spend for the best deals online..

But youve got to remember who your selling to.. a 6yr -14 year old is hardly likely to ask for an unrebuilt Bulleid or a B17 that only their grandfather remebers... its going to be for a “southern train” or a “TPE train” or a “Santa Special steam train”... nothing of which are made... which means the offering is irelevent and probably temporary.

 

I am quite frankly astounded a “Santa Special” trainset has never been made...its a natural one for christmas for younger kids in my mind, and you could use just about any tooling to make it...its more about the box than the content... just put a packet of fake snow in the box and some cadbury roses in the wagons.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by adb968008

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

In fact I am struggling to think of a 'mainstream' retailer which carries ANY model railway stuff - and they are not going to suddenly start stocking it simply because a new start up has come along with a 'basic' range of models. The profit simply isn't there to make it worth stocking.

 

Even Hobbycraft have steadily moved away - a decade ago you could buy Hornby set-track there; recently they've discontinued the Humbrol range. They're still doing plastic military and vehicle kits.

 

36 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I am quite frankly astounded a “Santa Special” trainset has never been made...its a natural one for christmas for younger kids in my mind, and you could use just about any tooling to make it...its more about the box than the content... just put a packet of fake snow in the box and some cadbury roses in the wagons.

 

Look before you speak. Try a quick google on "Hornby santa special".

[adb968008]

37 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Even Hobbycraft have steadily moved away - a decade ago you could buy Hornby set-track there; recently they've discontinued the Humbrol range. They're still doing plastic military and vehicle kits.

 

 

Look before you speak. Try a quick google on "Hornby santa special".

You got me there, but I was thinking of something a little relevent.. (ie a preserved loco that one can see).

my whole point is Hornbys kids range is largely stuff that doesnt exist any more... that little 0-4-0 included.

 

my first trainset was 37130 and 3 coaches, and in 1979 I could go out and see as many blue 37’s and mk2’s as I wanted.

my dads first trainset was 6231 and 2 coaches, and he too could go out and see it.

 

todays first trainset is an 040T completely unknown to anyone born after 1890 who didn't work inside Swindon works.

Now even I as a kid had a 101 and 3 coaches set bought for me around 1982, and I still have it, but for most part of the 1980’s the coaches were used as wagons, and the loco tended to shelter behind my more relevent class 08. I did like my steam, but it took until my mid teens to get 4498 looking as it looked in the real world, and I just kept dreaming of 34092... that took me until 2017... but Hornby did keep up with the HST, 58,90,91,92, 142..... then after Lima they all but stopped...in 21 years we have just a 466, Azuma, Pendolino & a Javelin.

 

Even in the 1990’s one could buy an Intercity 225 set, or Midnight Freight with a 58...

 

The word i’m trying to call out is relevance to the audience.

 

I think the last real attempts I recall was 44932 and mk2Ds and 34067 and the Excalibur sets in the early 2000’s, both of which held family day out appeal.

 

Going to the supermarket to sell out of date toys isn't in my mind a long term plan for growth of enthusiasts in the hobby. Its just churn of toys, which is in itself a good strategy, but lets not pretend its anything more than a short term toy which will end up binned.
 

As kids grow wiser, there isnt a follow on product to feed them, unless the kids themselves turn back the clock or change manufacturer, in which case they move Hornby from enthusiastic supporter to irrelevance.

 

I dont see any new entrant making railroad changing that, as Hornby owns the brand name everyone knows. Anyone else can feed off of that as Hornby keeps its niche to steam and the odd nod to the 1980’s... and that maybe where any oppourtunity lies.
 

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by adb968008

[melmerby]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

 

Look before you speak. Try a quick google on "Hornby santa special".

A TPE Nova for pre-order from "New Boys" Accurascale and  a Farish TPE class 350 are also available

[Kris]

19 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

You got me there, but I was thinking of something a little relevent.. (ie a preserved loco that one can see).

my whole point is Hornbys kids range is largely stuff that doesnt exist any more... that little 0-4-0 included.

 

my first trainset was 37130 and 3 coaches, and in 1979 I could go out and see as many blue 37’s and mk2’s as I wanted.

my dads first trainset was 6231 and 2 coaches, and he too could go out and see it.

 

todays first trainset is an 040T completely unknown to anyone born after 1890 who didn't work inside Swindon works.

Now even I as a kid had a 101 and 3 coaches set bought for me around 1982, and I still have it, but for most part of the 1980’s the coaches were used as wagons, and the loco tended to shelter behind my more relevent class 08. I did like my steam, but it took until my mid teens to get 4498 looking as it looked in the real world, and I just kept dreaming of 34092... that took me until 2017.

 

Even in the 1990’s one could buy an Intercity 225 set, or Midnight Freight with a 58...

 

The word i’m trying to call out is relevance to the audience.

 

 

Closest you get to a modern image train set from Hornby at the moment appears to the an HST or Eurostar. 

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, Kris said:

Closest you get to a modern image train set from Hornby at the moment appears to the an HST or Eurostar. 

Both are throw backs.

The Pendolino, Javelin and Azuma are the only post China innovative models that are representative of todays modern railway from Hornby (anything else is a retools of older models).

The thread is about starting a new rtr business.. that gives a really big clue where the opportunity lies...

 

Accurascale definitely picked that up, we have to be thankful, but just look how far, how fast they have grown... (considering many here say modern doesn't sell)... very soon i’d imagine they will be challenger for top 3 in the country, and I dont think anyone will stop them, as those older business models are so far out of touch to todays middle class, no mortgage, kids gone to uni &  still full time employed generation, who want more modern stuff and have money to afford it.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

34 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

Accurascale definitely picked that up, we have to be thankful, but just look how far, how fast they have grown...

 

 

They have - but thats taken time and with highly detailed models to boot. None of this unleashing basic models of multiple locos coaches and wagons all at the same time which was what Joseph has been talking about.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I allowed for that.

 

 

It is indeed just the tooling that is in the $200k range.  ScaleTrains isn't the only one to provide rough figures, other have in the past as well.  And in the Rapido section (Rapido dangles Class 13 RTR thread) Chris (dibber25) of Model Rail indicated it was in the $500k+ range to bring a loco to market (your "all aspects" of research, design, tooling, production, etc).  Dealing direct with a Chinese factory could potentially reduce that somewhat but not to the cheap levels you seem to think.

 

 

The problem though is that Hornby continues to sell - currently through some other retailers as well as direct or through Amazon.  This means Hornby will take a large percentage of your potential sales because they have the brand awareness, making the economics of your "basic" line of product even worse than attempting it with no competition.

 

As I indicated in another post, a retailer wanting to deal with the Hornby fallout (either already happening to them or potentially a future risk) needs to look into other options than attempting to take on Hornby directly.  Could Hattons do it?  Probably - but most of the retailers don't have spare millions around.

If Hornby were to get into trouble again (though I don't consider that to be likely in the foreseeable future), I'd think Hatton's would be a prime candidate to pick up the pieces.

 

It would certainly solve their pre-order cancellation issues once and for all.... 

 

Whatever the nature of any disaster, Hornby would not just cease to exist, a goodly portion of it would inevitably continue in new hands and any new entrant  has to recognise the geography of UK r-t-r OO marketplace has been, and will continue to be, shaped by its dominance.

 

I don't consider it would be credible for another mainstream range to be launched, viable volumes for triplication of so-called "must do" items almost certainly don't exist.

 

The prime example must be any Mk1 coach range, Bachmann's has been around for a very long time and the models are pretty durable, even if one does have to glue windows back in occasionally. I very much doubt they now sell more than 10% of what they did at their height, simply because they must have largely sated the market among established customers and must disproportionately depend on new entrants. That was probably so even before Hornby dragged their equivalents kicking and screaming into the 21st century, replacing a tiny range with origins almost as old as the prototypes.

 

John

 

   

Edited May 23, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

44 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

They have - but thats taken time and with highly detailed models to boot. None of this unleashing basic models of multiple locos coaches and wagons all at the same time which was what Joseph has been talking about.

True, thats why I drop back to what I said yesterday... Modern EMU/DMU at new Hornby mk1 standards, nem tension locks, keeping the electrical gubbins to a minimum, but designing it so an aftermarket company can supply could provide upgrade kits, and aiming for minimal toolings.

 

Problem is, there isnt much upsell in China, the costs of adding the “extras” isn't that high at the factory and adding %’s down the middle man chain results in higher profits at the consumer level... so why bother offering a cheap one when the cost of making a detailed doesn't cost that much more, but makes a much greater profit margin ?

A £400 SKU probably leaves the factory in China around £200.

A £250 simplified SKU probably leaves the factory around £150.

 

[Think about Heljans ethels, they are the same price rrp as the motorised ones, the only difference being around 15 minutes assembly effort and a motor thats probably under a £1 to buy in China]

 

it goes without saying you might sell more at £250 than £400, but your stumping up more of your own cash up front to gamble on that success, and ultimately your making half as much less per unit sold for your risk / efforts.

 

in a utopian communism, it makes sense to go budget, and rrp would be £150 as everyones in it for the greater good, but in the cold hard world of capitalism, £400 stacks up, and if you went cheap your competition will eat you, your lunch and your profit margin.

when you look at the tech industry, most “budget” products werent born budget, they were ex-hi-tech products that have life-extended & superseded over their lifetime... thats what Railroad is.

 

I definitely think a “railroad quality” anything that has ever been made before, full fat or budget is a waste of money, as your immediately competing against the second hand market...so Eurovision scores  on that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by adb968008

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

The Pendolino, Javelin and Azuma are the only post China innovative models that are representative of todays modern railway from Hornby (anything else is a retools of older models).

 

So say a cut off 2000 for today's modern railway?

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

The thread is about starting a new rtr business.. that gives a really big clue where the opportunity lies...

 

Perhaps - the evidence isn't convincing.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Accurascale definitely picked that up, we have to be thankful, but just look how far, how fast they have grown... (considering many here say modern doesn't sell)...

 

Shall we look?

 

Locos - Class 37 (1960), Deltic (1961), GWR Manor (1938), Class 92 (1993) - yes, 2 of those are still on the mainline today but it is a reasonable assumption that it is their pre-2000 sales, and in the case of the 37 their pre-1990, that have made them viable.

 

Passenger - Mk5 - absolutely, and something of a gamble (not on newness, but on being sets and not individual coaches - I hope this succeeds and possibly prompts a rethink on the concern/hesitation over 3/4/5 car multiple units)

 

Goods - a quick count reveals 12 goods wagons, only 3 are from 2000 or later, 1 from 1996, 1 from 1998 - call them modern and that gets you 5 "modern" models.  But that gives us 7 models from 1950 to 1986, and worth noting Accurascale launched with a 1954 model.

 

So I would say it is more of a mixed message with most of the Accurascale product line not being modern.

 

Now Accurascale don't give out sales numbers, so we don't know what sells better / sells less, but a look at the range they have decided upon would seem to indicate that old still sells really well and relying entirely on recent modern models may not make sense from a business perspective.

 

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

very soon i’d imagine they will be challenger for top 3 in the country, and I dont think anyone will stop them, as those older business models are so far out of touch

 

Will Accurascale become number 3?  I think that it is a safe assumption that they can pass Dapol.

 

But with Accurascale having said for example there is more steam planned, I don't think they will do it being a manufacturer of the "modern railway" models but rather with a continued emphasis on a mix of eras, chasing like the others the products that sell.

 

 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

 

 

 

Shall we look?

 

Locos - Class 37 (1960), Deltic (1961), GWR Manor (1938), Class 92 (1993) - yes, 2 of those are still on the mainline today but it is a reasonable assumption that it is their pre-2000 sales, and in the case of the 37 their pre-1990, that have made them viable.

 

Passenger - Mk5 - absolutely, and something of a gamble (not on newness, but on being sets and not individual coaches - I hope this succeeds and possibly prompts a rethink on the concern/hesitation over 3/4/5 car multiple units)

 

Goods - a quick count reveals 12 goods wagons, only 3 are from 2000 or later, 1 from 1996, 1 from 1998 - call them modern and that gets you 5 "modern" models.  But that gives us 7 models from 1950 to 1986, and worth noting Accurascale launched with a 1954 model.

 

So I would say it is more of a mixed message with most of the Accurascale product line not being modern.

 

Just about everything they made, is still around us today, including the Manors. 
I wish Accurascale well (i need too i’m heavily invested in their range), but I do wonder if the Manor (and MDO) are their best decisions... fyi, I own a lot of steam as well as modern in my collection so ive no real dog in that fight.

 

You forget preservation sells... preservation is a huge part of todays hobby.. if it wasn't there wouldn't be 300+ miles of track and 600 odd locos running on them.

Several Deltics, 37’s etc are in todays liveries..

Being around today certainly doesnt seem to be hurting sales...

 

which do you reckon would sell more,  if some made a railroad K2 or a K4 ?

 

Whats got more potential for future long term sales, a class 124 or a class 180 ?

I keep saying the same thing.. Relevance to the consumer.

it was surprising to me too, to see crowds of teenagers out to see the GN 313, 365 send offs, the HSTs too have an air of “Delticism” about their last days... its hard to imagine but railway enthusiasts are heading to newbury to ride a C2C electrostar “in the wrong place”.. the hobby is out there.

 

Hornby is milking the HST today not because it was made in 1977 and ran for 40 years, the 1st tooling sold that. But because they retooled it a decade ago.. that forsight is paying dividends today.. nearly every livery, bar just 4 examples (R2701/2/3692 and 3944) , they’ve rolled out in the last decade has been “todays” current scene... thats what people are buying, the old tooling was exactly the same throughout... “todays” railway.

The Hornby HST today is what Limas class 50 was in the 90’s..

 

youngsters are out there, waiting to harvest...someday the last class 180 will run, and i’m confident they will attract a following too.. even if they wont be able to buy a class 180 model, as the hobby stopped tooling anything when BR did... I think its kind of arrogant to expect they will go home to buy a Fowler 2-6-2T instead, it is entirely possible they will go HO and buy a Vectron instead as they can see it across Europe and buy it, youngsters travel too.

 

There is a vocal steam majority on here, ive yet to see any steam prototype reach the dizzy heights on ebay that modern image does, my inbox is filled weekly with little black steamies at bargain prices...maybe the voice shouts louder than the wallet ?

 

on a “modern” layout its very easy to mix the 1980’s with the 2020’s and suspect many of us do. Those of us who remeber that time, have disposable incomes today, that is better than those on retirement.. just as those retirees today spent just as well in the 1990’s modelling boom... buying steam, whilst having a sizeable ultra modern Lima stash “strictly just for the kids of course”.

 

its sad but the vein I see often in these threads is “whats in it for my past glories”, rather than “whats in it for the future”... Thats a generational shift typical in UK society born post war.

Edited May 23, 2021 by adb968008

[MyRule1]

Many posts have pointed out the the only certainty about launching a comprehensive range of models is bankruptcy.  In fact we need to look back around 50 years to learn from the last attempts to do as the op asks.

 

I came into modelling in the early 1970's in my late teens with disposable income I was tempted by the launch of Graham Fairish "N" gauge, a range which has now grown to a comprehensive range. I also dabbled in "TT" as at that time 2nd hand Triang TT was going for next to nothing. But it what happened over those years that made me make the switch to "OO".

 

Airfix, Palitoy and Lima all started to launch comprehensive ranges in "OO", Lima, Fleishmann and Riviossi all attempt British "HO" - "HO" failed completely, and the other three all went under, as well as Hornby. Now Airfix and Lima exist under the rescued Hornby label (with a few exemptions) and Palitoy came under Bachmann.

 

if these attempts failed in the booming market of the 1970's what hope is there today?

 

Take a look at the Hornby Group web-site: they have the entire market sown up. From the budget toy trains to the premium market everything is there.

 

As a host of new entrants have shown commissioning single models fitting a niche in the market does work: identify you niche, gain the buyers trust through successful deliveries, deal direct without any retail mark up, and you might make a living and return on your capital.

[Phil Parker]

11 hours ago, stivesnick said:

Or how about developing a Moon or Mars Railway system 2100? This could have global appeal so increase potential sales volumes.  

 

Rovex beat you to it in 1969

 

 

 

And of course, Hornby had another go in the 1980s. It was rubbish.

 

So, space (pun intended) for a new entrant to the hobby...

[Joseph_Pestell]

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

I have said it before and I will say it again - you are pedalling a solution looking for a problem.

 

 

You don't think that the current situation between Hornby and the retailers is a problem? Especially those retailers who have been put in "tier 3".

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 hours ago, Philou said:

Very interesting thread - almost a 'what if' there was no longer Hornby. However, one thing hasn't been really explored in detail: Is there enough spare cash to support the trade as is without a new entrant dipping his toe in the water?

 

I don't know if I'm a 'typical' customer or not but due to Covid, my buying habits have changed - whether it will stay that way or not, I don't know. I thought that by not going out I would have had some extra cash to spend, but it hasn't turned out that way and my railway spending has gone to a few chosen suppliers, new or recent entrants to market, rather than the more well-established manufacturers. That's primarily because I like 'quirky' and modern block trains and there hasn't been much by way of other products that I 'need' rather than what I 'want'.

 

Am I part of a changing demographic? Would I spend money on another new entrant? Do I need lesser detailed MkIs? I don't think so in respect of MkIs as I would not buy lesser detailed anything if it was avoidable AND I have enough of them anyway - as an example.

 

I note that Joseph is back in France and would seem to me that there is a huge Euro-market of lesser-known locos waiting tohil be modelled. Perhaps that's where there is a market to be explored rather that what I perceive to be an already crowded UK market. Question though arises: Is there more railway modelling disposable income in Euro-land than in the UK?

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Hi Philip,

 

Another thread led me to have a look at the REE catalogue.

 

If REE had been launched only a couple of years earlier, I would probably still be a model railway retailer. They have produced many cracking models over the last 20 years and never afraid to produce a new variant of an existing model - this year the X2800 going up against what is already a very good model from Roco.

 

Their current new product is the "Bourbonnais" 060 which was a Rivarossi product. A slightly different situation here, where they are reproducing a well-known loco to an entirely different level of quality to the 1960s Riva model.

 

I am disappointed that they are only offering one of the four versions of trailer. That  was always the Roco weakness.

[PMP]

11 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

You don't think that the current situation between Hornby and the retailers is a problem? Especially those retailers who have been put in "tier 3".

No.

It’s an inconvenience for some end customers, who have to search around for an alternative source, and much bigger impact for those retailers in Tier3. Is it a big problem in the industry as a whole? No. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

9 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

If you think motorisation is easy, you've never built a chassis. Gear meshing? Fitting pickups? All can be made easier with serious R&D but then you end up with something like the DJH beginners range, that people moaned was to expensive, because that R&D has to be paid for. The £100k I quoted was for an unpowered plastic kit too. At least double it for a chassis kit to be developed.

 

Then sell to a market that complained bitterly whe ViTrains left the "modeller" to plug handrails and vac pipes into models. 

 

There might be a reason those Revell kits were never joined by a larger range. 

 

Phil,

 

Please don't misquote me.

 

I did not say that motorisation was "easy". I said that it was within the skills capacity of anyone who could assemble a fully detailed kit.