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Freightliner's environmental credentials down the pan


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12 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Unless you can provide a link, they haven't - the news reports all seem to be "rumours" that the UK government will do something nuclear, but that what seems to be unknown.

 

Google search reveals the Guardian claiming funding for 16 Rolls-Royce SMR reactors while the Telegraph is claiming the government plans "to approve at least one more large-scale nuclear project in the next few years", likely Sizewell C

 

So no announcement, no funding, and maybe in the future is the reporting so far.

 

An announcement to make at Glasgow?

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13 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Getting back on topic. 
How soon before the larger UK FOC’s order more dual or multi-mode freight locos?

With a large fleet of diesel traction, with many more years of life left in it, is it unlikely in the near term without some external influence (economic or legislative) being brought to bear?

 

 

.

Hopefully, pretty soon!

While the class 66 fleet is quite large, the oldest ones are actually getting on a bit now, surprising as that may be.

Other than Stadler who else could build a dual/multi mode locomotive that will fit the British loading gauge?

 

In America, external* (& internal#) influences are pushing new machines so it could happen in the UK.

 

* tier 4

# company accounting 

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13 hours ago, Titan said:

 

Let us say that the siding is wired for a quarter of its length at each end.  Loco pushes wagons into sidings and stops with furthest wagons clear of the wires at the other end. When these are unloaded it pushes the train so the unloaded wagons are now under the wires.  The middle of the train can now be unloaded whilst the loco runs round and attaches at the other end.  The loco then pulls the train so that the remaining wagons to be unloaded are now in the middle clear of the wires.

 

Don't know if this is how it happens in practice as it would be a few extra moves compared to diesel, and there would be a minimum length the train could be so that it could be pushed as far a the wires at the other end without running off the wire at the near end, but maybe the benefits would outweigh the drawbacks?

Surely far easier for the electric loco to bring the train into an arrival road, a Diesel or battery shunter to move it to the unloading/loading road, and then back to the departure road for a main line loco to collect?

 

That also means that the incoming loco doesn't have to take the same train back out, and could go straight onto another rake that's already in the departure road once released by the shunter (subject to crew PNBs etc - but I know at Southampton, the crew change is done at Eastleigh, so the incoming driver is only 10 minutes into his shift when he arrives at the freightliner terminal)

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1 hour ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Other than Stadler who else could build a dual/multi mode locomotive that will fit the British loading gauge?

 

You'd imagine that Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier etc could come up with something. Bombardier have built one for the US market, which obviously would need a bit of shrinking, but it's got two 2100hp diesel engines in the car body, so there's some space to save...

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3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

You'd imagine that Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier etc could come up with something. Bombardier have built one for the US market, which obviously would need a bit of shrinking, but it's got two 2100hp diesel engines in the car body, so there's some space to save...

 

Bombardier Transportation of course no longer exists, being part of Alstom.

 

But your point is a good one - if/when the freight operators start to replace their large fleets of Class 66 units the number of units will make it attractive for Siemens and/or Alstom to compete with Stadler.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Nick C said:

Surely far easier for the electric loco to bring the train into an arrival road, a Diesel or battery shunter to move it to the unloading/loading road, and then back to the departure road for a main line loco to collect?

 

That also means that the incoming loco doesn't have to take the same train back out, and could go straight onto another rake that's already in the departure road once released by the shunter (subject to crew PNBs etc - but I know at Southampton, the crew change is done at Eastleigh, so the incoming driver is only 10 minutes into his shift when he arrives at the freightliner terminal)

 

Quite possibly.  I just wanted to show how it could be possible to use a single electric locomotive and crew and still be able to unload the containers without the cranes going near the wires.  Other solutions are no doubt available!

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20 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Unless you can provide a link, they haven't - the news reports all seem to be "rumours" that the UK government will do something nuclear, but that what seems to be unknown.

 

Google search reveals the Guardian claiming funding for 16 Rolls-Royce SMR reactors while the Telegraph is claiming the government plans "to approve at least one more large-scale nuclear project in the next few years", likely Sizewell C

 

So no announcement, no funding, and maybe in the future is the reporting so far.

 

 

About 4 weeks ago, the Sunday Times carried a big piece on this to the effect that the cabinet has realised that relying on wind is a mug's game and that we need something else too; and that something else is going to be nuclear.  The piece said the outline plan contained both a single large conventional plant and 16 RR SMR plants most likely to be located at sites which have had nuclear installations before.  Trawsfynydd was mentioned as a potential pilot site.  The ST is usually fairly well informed and so I would categorise this as more than a rumour.

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1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

About 4 weeks ago, the Sunday Times carried a big piece on this to the effect that the cabinet has realised that relying on wind is a mug's game and that we need something else too; and that something else is going to be nuclear.  The piece said the outline plan contained both a single large conventional plant and 16 RR SMR plants most likely to be located at sites which have had nuclear installations before.  Trawsfynydd was mentioned as a potential pilot site.  The ST is usually fairly well informed and so I would categorise this as more than a rumour.

Since it is extremely unlikely that anywhere that desn't already have Nuclear Operating Licence will get one, then we are fairly constrained to building new PSs on existing sites.  It's also extremely practical; the facilities for handling spent fuel and waste already exist and the national grid is

also set up to distribute from those locations.

Not as much as a coal-fired power station of course, but nuclear power also means rail freight traffic......

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Surely, if sea levels are rising they are only going back towards where they were centruries ago when they receeded by nature without our influence.

 

The Great God Hornby's HQ are on the Isle of Thanet which back in Roman Times was a "proper" island - still techically an island with the River Stour to the south & a glorified drainage ditch to the east.

 

Go back even further England was part of the european land mass.

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2 hours ago, 313201 said:

The class 73 and 92 locomotives were built in the UK and they are bi mode or multi mode locos, the 73s being primarily electric locos with onboard diesel engibes and the 92s granted they are full elecy locos but the can work 3rd rail, 25Kv and varying overhead voltages over in eurpoe too

 

The issue (beyond the 92 being a poor example given it's lack of diesel for this discussion) is the problem of stuffing both electric and a diesel engine of sufficient power into the small available space for a UK loco.

 

From Wikipedia, we get a Class 66 with 2.2kW of power while the 73/9 gets 1.2kW - and the Class 88 only gets 700kW with the Class 93 upping it to 900kW

 

Added to that, my understanding is that new emissions regulations have kicked in making it even harder to fit everything in - hence one of the reasons for the Class 69 "rebuild" program.

 

Expecting the freight operators to move from 1 Class 66 to 2 or 3 bi-modes isn't going to go well...

 

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6 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Added to that, my understanding is that new emissions regulations have kicked in making it even harder to fit everything in - hence one of the reasons for the Class 69 "rebuild" program.

 

It is more that it is not considered viable by loco manufacturers to invest huge sums in the extra engineering to make it fit into the reduced UK loading gauge as presumably there aren't enough sales to be had. One of the many flaws in over-regulation. So instead of a compromise where you end up with significantly less polluting locos which aren't quite to the latest standards, you end up with lots of older more polluting locos running under granny exemptions. And the rebuilds as you say.

 

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20 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Surely, if sea levels are rising they are only going back towards where they were centruries ago when they receeded by nature without our influence.

 

Slight distortion on your timing - not centuries but millennia (and many at that).

 

20 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

The Great God Hornby's HQ are on the Isle of Thanet which back in Roman Times was a "proper" island - still techically an island with the River Stour to the south & a glorified drainage ditch to the east.

 

And is loss of island status had nothing to do with sea levels - rather the Wantsum Channel simply silted up to become land.

 

20 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Go back even further England was part of the european land mass.

 

Yep, but 20,000 years or so ago.

 

That is hardly "going back to where they were centuries ago" as you claimed to start your post.

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1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

No, lets, then theree will be less of them claiming benefits.

Given one of them is the wife of a senior TFL manager (who has since resigned when it became public) then they are not just benefit claimers out for a jolly.

 

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

Surely, if sea levels are rising they are only going back towards where they were centruries ago when they receeded by nature without our influence.

 

The Great God Hornby's HQ are on the Isle of Thanet which back in Roman Times was a "proper" island - still techically an island with the River Stour to the south & a glorified drainage ditch to the east.

 

Go back even further England was part of the european land mass.

It's not just the rising levels but also the excess freshwater from the icecaps that could in theory destroy the thermal cycles in the ocean plunging European temperatures.

 

How far back would you like the sea levels to return, there is evidence that at one time the Earth was very much water covered with little land mass above sea level, I imagine we will all be living on electric boats then, with food being grown on giant rafts.

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In some parts of the UK, the sea is still receding, and has been doing for the last few centuries.

 

If you head from Rye towards the sea, you pass in turn a fort built during the reign of Henry VIII, another built during the Napoleonic Wars, and a WW2 defensive position. All of these were built on the beachhead at the time they were built, but no longer is.

 

But of course in other parts of the UK, the sea is encroaching.

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1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Given one of them is the wife of a senior TFL manager (who has since resigned when it became public) then they are not just benefit claimers out for a jolly.

 

It's not just the rising levels but also the excess freshwater from the icecaps that could in theory destroy the thermal cycles in the ocean plunging European temperatures.

 

How far back would you like the sea levels to return, there is evidence that at one time the Earth was very much water covered with little land mass above sea level, I imagine we will all be living on electric boats then, with food being grown on giant rafts.

 

I am on (& have been on) many forums over the years & this one is the worst for people taking things far too lierally & picking holes in so much.

I used the term "claiming benefits" as a generalisation - did I have to actually explain that ?

Also, I never said that "I wanted the sea levels to return" eithrer - just looking at things from a different angle.

 

Still, I was warned.............

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2 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

 

I am on (& have been on) many forums over the years & this one is the worst for people taking things far too lierally & picking holes in so much.

I used the term "claiming benefits" as a generalisation - did I have to actually explain that ?

Also, I never said that "I wanted the sea levels to return" eithrer - just looking at things from a different angle.

 

Still, I was warned.............

You cannot make provocative statements and expect no-one to bite, even I have learnt that from social media :D

 

What something sounds like in your head is not how it appears when typed out.

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1 hour ago, RJS1977 said:

In some parts of the UK, the sea is still receding, and has been doing for the last few centuries.

 

IIRC the original (well, I think it's the original - someone will be along in a minute with the red pen) Dungeness Lighthouse was replaced by a newer one becuase it was further away from the sea. (Again, awaiting the red pend for some other reason).

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2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

You cannot make provocative statements and expect no-one to bite, even I have learnt that from social media :D

 

What something sounds like in your head is not how it appears when typed out.

I was not aware that head shrinks could get into my head remotely - I tend to re-read what I've written several times before hitting (no, better say pressing) the "submit reply" button (oh, sorry, it's not a real button.

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1 hour ago, RJS1977 said:

In some parts of the UK, the sea is still receding, and has been doing for the last few centuries.

 

If you head from Rye towards the sea, you pass in turn a fort built during the reign of Henry VIII, another built during the Napoleonic Wars, and a WW2 defensive position. All of these were built on the beachhead at the time they were built, but no longer is.

 

But of course in other parts of the UK, the sea is encroaching.

Quite so.  It's government policy - we're moving further way from Europe.

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So when will they start manning the Martello Towers again?

Sorry, completely off topic.

Back on topic, within the framework provided by our government's approach to things (whatever colour) what can realistically be done to encourage more freight companies to use electric traction?

And more hauliers to find ways of using rail?

Jonathan

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3 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

In some parts of the UK, the sea is still receding, and has been doing for the last few centuries.

 

If you head from Rye towards the sea, you pass in turn a fort built during the reign of Henry VIII, another built during the Napoleonic Wars, and a WW2 defensive position. All of these were built on the beachhead at the time they were built, but no longer is.

 

But of course in other parts of the UK, the sea is encroaching.

The entire UK, and most of Scandinavia, is in fact rotating! The northern parts were under glaciers during the last ice age, and so were depressed, and since then have been bouncing back - in some places by as much as 10mm per year.

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2 hours ago, Nick C said:

The entire UK, and most of Scandinavia, is in fact rotating! 

Yep, once a day about an axis running through the North & South Poles and once a year about the sun.  And the North & South Magnetic poles change over every several hundred thousand years  :offtopic:

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3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Back on topic, within the framework provided by our government's approach to things (whatever colour) what can realistically be done to encourage more freight companies to use electric traction?

 

Electrify more of the network.

 

The less route miles they need diesels for, the fewer diesels, thus less ability to fall back to diesel haulage under the wires for any reason.

 

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

And more hauliers to find ways of using rail?

 

I suspect there is limited scope for this.

 

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