NRM Midland Compound

[coachmann]

For the conversionists the MR Compounds hauled some interesting Tenders and so there must be an opening for etched Tender kits with long and short slot frames and at least five different tender sides. Then there are tall and short Deeley/Fowler chimneys and domes and chimneys without capuchons. And this little lot doesn't even begin to tackle the engines built by the LMS.

[bluebottle]

 

As discussed earlier, you could buy the Hornby Compound at £70 if the £140 of the NRM's standard edition is too high.

 

I suspect not many will take that option, however, if what they want is top quality for the locomotive in question.

Yes, I'll consider the Hornby one when it appears, but it doesn't look promising. Oh well, if I say £100 is fair enough, and call the other £40 quits for all the donations I've never made to the NRM...

[Prometheus]

As discussed earlier, you could buy the Hornby Compound at £70

 

I think £56.99 with one seller which, for all its forecast faults [and, in fairness, we have yet to see those], is not bad value......

 

 

Tony

[D605Eagle]

Yes, I'll consider the Hornby one when it appears, but it doesn't look promising. Oh well, if I say £100 is fair enough, and call the other £40 quits for all the donations I've never made to the NRM...

We don't really know what this will look like as yet, the picture on Hornby's website is of a very old tender drive Engine. I have heard rumors about a different tender been used too as Hornby do have a far more dimentionally accurate one "on the books" so to speak. We'll just have to wait and see what they do. An option for you might be to buy the Hornby one if its not too bad when it comes out and then pot for a Bachy production one if and when they come out and put your Hornby one up for sale to offset the cost. It will give you time to save yer pennies too!

Jim

[Ozexpatriate]

Maybe it's just me thinking too much on it, but can you really expect either Deltic, Truro, or the compound to appear in Bachmann's range in any form?

I think it is widely understood that Bachmann does have this option at least for the City class - at some point in time and under conditions that have not been disclosed.

If they were to appear, let's think on what would happen.

 

In Deltic's case, they would no longer be exclusive, and the NRM would lose sales because modellers would go towards the box shifters. Arguably, this would be the case for both the City and Compound toolings if they were to re-emerge with different names/numbers.

 

I can't see any exclusives from the NRM ever becoming available in the standard Bachmann range on that basis. However, as we saw with Deltic, who is to say other scales might not benefit from the work done on Truro and the Compound in future...?

It's fair to assume that at some point, the NRM will stop selling their exclusive models and I would imagine the numbers/liveries chosen by the NRM will continue to be 'exclusive'.

 

Once the NRM stops selling these models, any Bachmann offering with an alternative running number/livery would not dilute NRM sales. I'm not privvy to their contract and don't *know* any specifics.

[brossard]

While pre-grouping locos are unquestionably attractive, where is the rolling stock support? For the LMS period, there are some very fine Hornby period 3 coaches and Bachmann have some period 2's but these are long in the tooth and you can only have a compo and brake. There are absolutely no RTR MR coaches (many many many many...(as Minnie Crun used to say) years ago there were some Hornby generic clerestories disguised as MR coaches). The Ratio kits can produce fine models but the lining is daunting and bogies fragile. Slaters do some great Clayton 6 wheel kits. I think this dearth of RTR vehicles for the loco to pull is likely to put a damper on sales.

 

John

[nerron]

While pre-grouping locos are unquestionably attractive, where is the rolling stock support? For the LMS period, there are some very fine Hornby period 3 coaches and Bachmann have some period 2's but these are long in the tooth and you can only have a compo and brake. There are absolutely no RTR MR coaches (many many many many...(as Minnie Crun used to say) years ago there were some Hornby generic clerestories disguised as MR coaches). The Ratio kits can produce fine models but the lining is daunting and bogies fragile. Slaters do some great Clayton 6 wheel kits. I think this dearth of RTR vehicles for the loco to pull is likely to put a damper on sales.

 

John

What you have to understand is that this is not the pre-grouping version but the 1951 restored version.As such a rake of BR Mk1's or Staniers behind it on, say, an enthusiasts' special would be most appropriate.That I hope will be the case on my layout.

[coachmann]

D605Eagle :

We don't really know what this will look like as yet, the picture on Hornby's website is of a very old tender drive Engine. I have heard rumors about a different tender been used too as Hornby do have a far more dimentionally accurate one "on the books" so to speak. We'll just have to wait and see what they do.

If it is the case that Hornby is showing buyers a very old tender-drive model, then that's a very odd way of advertising their latest incarnation of the Compound, especially in the face of competition. Rumours are no substitute for good pictures.

 

.

[mcowgill]

D605Eagle : If it is the case that Hornby is showing buyers a very old tender-drive model, then that's a very odd way of advertising their latest incarnation of the Compound, especially in the face of competition. Rumours are no substitute for good pictures.

 

.

 

I'm pretty sure the most recent issue of the Hornby newsletter (last week?) shows a typical Hornby side elevation view of the existing Compound model with a note that the new model would have the correct tender, not the one in the picture. I can't find the newsletter on Hornby's website so I can't confirm if it was my imagination, but it was after the Bachmann announcement which is why I looked a litle closer at the model on the Hornby newsletter.

 

Still bought a Bachmann one

 

Martin

[The Stationmaster]

D605Eagle : If it is the case that Hornby is showing buyers a very old tender-drive model, then that's a very odd way of advertising their latest incarnation of the Compound, especially in the face of competition. Rumours are no substitute for good pictures.

The Hornby one was in one of their showcases at the Swindon 'Steam' exhibition and the finish looked less toy-like (and too dark) than the original issue but that was about all that was noticeable about it; I didn't pay too much attention to it and the tender didn't stand out one way or the other but I suppose they could well wheel out the ex-Airfix 4F tender behind it. The GW 'County' appears to come with the original tender but that might not mean anything as far as the Compound is concerned.

 

Addendum - and judging from what went on with the 'Castles' I wouldn't trust a Hornby catalogue picture as indicative of anything except possibly the number of wheels the loco is likely to have, the only reliable pics will be from reviews and from those retailers who bother to take their own.

[coachmann]

Having looked at the image of the new Tender in the Hornby Newsletter, it is neither a Fowler nor one of the Deeley designs.

[spamcan61]

 

I'm pretty sure the most recent issue of the Hornby newsletter (last week?) shows a typical Hornby side elevation view of the existing Compound model with a note that the new model would have the correct tender, not the one in the picture. I can't find the newsletter on Hornby's website so I can't confirm if it was my imagination, but it was after the Bachmann announcement which is why I looked a litle closer at the model on the Hornby newsletter.

 

Still bought a Bachmann one

 

Martin

 

It wasn't your imagination, Hornby newsletter # 43 states, under a picture of the compound:-

 

"Worthy of note and for those with keen eyes, the model shown here will be as produced with the correct tender while the model depicted in the latest Hornby catalogue shows the model with incorrect tender."

[tetsudofan]

Sorry it's a rubbish photo taken on the Hornby Stand at the Folkestone Show (in very bad lighting conditions whilst crouching on the floor ) but maybe it can give some idea of what is to come....

 

 

Keith

[45568]

Without wishing to get involved in the Bachmann vs. Hornby argument, I think Coachmann and others have alluded to the fact that MR 1000 as preserved and modelled by NRM/Bachmann, is a totally different beast to the LMS "standard ? " Compound.

Thus taking the latest Bachmann model, spraying it black, lining it out and numbering it 41168 will not be accurate for that loco. I modified a Hornby 41043, (I think it was), in BR lined black replacing dome/chimney/ safety valves with Crownline parts, and modified the tender to the stretched u/f Deeley type with an Airfix 4F body.

Numbered 41068, it represents one of the last survivors, but even so was not totally accurate.

Whether people will go to that extent with a 140 quid model and still not have an accurate model remains to be seen! Likewise, will the NRM be prepared to take that risk? I think not, perhaps weathered versions etc. may appear. We have seen some spin-off from CoT in the Dukedog, perhaps that points the way forward for Compound futures?

I will order 1000 as it was my father's favourite engine, and as a 9 y.o. in 1960, travelled behind it to Doncaster.

Bachmann may bring out the "Std" Compound with all it's differences later.

I hope that "Butler-H" does not fall under the NRM gaze, I need two or three D11/1's, in plain black!

Cheers, Peter C.

[Pennine MC]

While pre-grouping locos are unquestionably attractive, where is the rolling stock support?

 

Nerron has pointed out that the NRM Compound is, effectively, a nice loco for a nice loco's sake. But looking at the wider picture, whilst pre-Group locos are undoubtedly a growth area, I still feel that the bulk of the potential is seen as 1950s and '60s usage, possibly because developing a truly complementary range of rolling stock would be just too risky.

 

I think it is widely understood that Bachmann does have this option at least for the City class - at some point in time and under conditions that have not been disclosed.

 

 

I thought I recalled something to that effect, but it's hard to see an 'ordinary' City selling that well - see point above. As Peter says, the fringe benefit of the City is probably the Dukedog.

[brossard]

 

Nerron has pointed out that the NRM Compound is, effectively, a nice loco for a nice loco's sake. But looking at the wider picture, whilst pre-Group locos are undoubtedly a growth area, I still feel that the bulk of the potential is seen as 1950s and '60s usage, possibly because developing a truly complementary range of rolling stock would be just too risky.

 

 

I stand corrected on the compound, it's neither one nor t'other and is only actually correct in a BR setting. Plenty of coaches for that of course but the coaches will have to have people with their heads stuck out of the windows.

 

My favoured era is pre-war LMS, I suppose because the decade from 1930 to 1939 was the epitome of British railways, to me anyway. I have a collection of early 1960's BR stock as well. Early 60's because I can still (just) remember steam when it wasn't preserved.

 

As the population ages the number of people modelling the older railway eras is going to diminish so I agree that post nationalisation is the growth area. I would be grateful for more locos like the 3F though. The modern post privatisation period leaves me cold.

 

John

[D605Eagle]

D605Eagle : If it is the case that Hornby is showing buyers a very old tender-drive model, then that's a very odd way of advertising their latest incarnation of the Compound, especially in the face of competition. Rumours are no substitute for good pictures.

 

.

Hornby do, and have in the past used some very rubbish pictures to advertise their products on their website. Also they have been very vague and often incorrect in the descriptions too. If you ask me they really need to have a bit of a rethink on some aspects of their website design etc.

We're drifting off topic again!

I do hope that Bachy will do normal production runs of various Midland and LMS compounds. I fair fancy one or two in BR black.

[D605Eagle]

 

Nerron has pointed out that the NRM Compound is, effectively, a nice loco for a nice loco's sake. But looking at the wider picture, whilst pre-Group locos are undoubtedly a growth area, I still feel that the bulk of the potential is seen as 1950s and '60s usage, possibly because developing a truly complementary range of rolling stock would be just too risky.

 

I think the only pre grouping locos we can hope for are ones that survived well into the BR era. Hornby seem quite happy to release locos in pre grouping livery, T9, M7, N2, etc etc even if Bachmann don't. I totaly agree with you on the rolling stock, it would be financial suicide to undertake anything like that.

[wombatofludham]

I would have thought there might be scope for some "pre-grouping" rolling stock to be released as RTR especially as a lot of it was long lived and ran well into BR days. I'm sure we've all seen pictures of Midland clerestory stock in "Blood and Custard" livery, it was apparently a wooden bodied ex Midland arc-roofed compartment coach which was at the back of the local which took the full force of the Stirling sleeper express at Harrow and Wealdstone in 1952, and the tighter than a duck's bottom Southern bequeathed shed loads of pre-grouping hauled stock, as well as hauled stock converted to EMUs, to BR. I've even seen pictures of British Railways lettered LNER tanks on the Great Eastern hauling a motley rake of six wheel and clerestory coaches in 1949, so the commercially important long life and livery options are there for some pre-grouping stock

 

However, it will probably come down to a smaller firm commissioning things directly or using something like limited run 3d printing technology as we seem to be unable to get Hornby or Bachmann to release arguably more mainstream stuff like BR Mk2c stock, BR 64ft suburban stock, or a representative range of GW pre Collett coaches, LMS period 1s or 2s, or a decent set of Bullieds. Perhaps a retailer might be tempted to commission a range of MR mainline Clerestories in MR and LMS liveries which probably would have a similar market potential as Murphy's Irish Craven coaches!

[Jenny Emily]

I've been thinking for a while that in these economically tight times, the NRM might be the sort of people to commission suitable pre-grouping stock from the likes of Bachmann. With a much lower retail price than locomotives, it might find a market with people who cannot justify £150+ for a locomotive, but can justify £30-£40 for a coach.

[RedgateModels]

Hornby Mag have a spread on 1000 in this month's issue. Does look VERY tasty. I'll stick to my Jamieson bodied, scratch built chassis version though

[Bernard Lamb]

I've been thinking for a while that in these economically tight times, the NRM might be the sort of people to commission suitable pre-grouping stock from the likes of Bachmann. With a much lower retail price than locomotives, it might find a market with people who cannot justify £150+ for a locomotive, but can justify £30-£40 for a coach.

 

To satisfy the people on here they would need to offer a range of at least four coaches. Some people would buy one of each others would buy lots of BKs. How does the NRM order stock? Whatever they do it will almost certainly be wrong and they will be left with stock on the shelves.

Much easier for them to stick to a small range of iconic locomotives and have them made in smallish batches. The speed of selling out on each batch should give them an idea of when to call up the next run and how large that run needs to be.

At the moment they seem to be doing it rather well.

While coaches would be very welcome I think they would be foolish to change the business model. Especially in these uncertain times.

Bernard

[The Stationmaster]

 

To satisfy the people on here they would need to offer a range of at least four coaches. Some people would buy one of each others would buy lots of BKs. How does the NRM order stock? Whatever they do it will almost certainly be wrong and they will be left with stock on the shelves.

Much easier for them to stick to a small range of iconic locomotives and have them made in smallish batches. The speed of selling out on each batch should give them an idea of when to call up the next run and how large that run needs to be.

At the moment they seem to be doing it rather well.

While coaches would be very welcome I think they would be foolish to change the business model. Especially in these uncertain times.

Bernard

I quite agree. And there is another point worth bearing in mind - assuming a constant profit rate they will make more money per loco sold than per coach so their cash return will be better from locos than coaches, especially from coaches carrying the cost of specially commissioned tooling. Which leads to a simple question - how much would we pay, per coach, for these vehicles which some folk are asking for? I suspect that if it was a viable business model folk, and not just the NRM, would already be commissioning r-t-r Pre-Group coaches to go with, say 'CoT'.

[Ozexpatriate]

Which leads to a simple question - how much would we pay, per coach, for these vehicles which some folk are asking for? I suspect that if it was a viable business model folk, and not just the NRM, would already be commissioning r-t-r Pre-Group coaches to go with, say 'CoT'.

Fun question Mike!

 

The NRM has iconic locomotives. Are there equally iconic coaches? Yes! Certainly the LNER dynamometer car used on Mallard's record breaking run would meet this requirement. My viseral guess is that the NRM would want to ask at least £50, perhaps £60 for it, should they be so inclined.

 

Are there iconic train formations? Yes! I would be interested in a "Ocean Mails" to go with City Of Truro. The LNER Coronation/West Riding and Silver Jubilee sets also interest me as 'iconic'.

 

But you don't just buy one coach. While you might buy one iconic locomotive at a suitable douceur price for the NRM, buying a whole train makes the price point much more important to a lot of people. There's been lots and lots of discussion on this topic related to things like the Blue Pullmans and Brighton Belles. I like the idea of iconic trains, and I would buy them RTR (yes kits may be available) priced as commissioned items. I'd be very tempted but might baulk at pricing for the museum where a 'per coach' donation is built in. Given the tone of a lot of pricing related topics, I think there would regretably be much umbrage and disapprobation on museum pricing for a whole train.

 

As posted in an earlier response in this thread, the NRM are well advised to pursue their 'iconic' locomotive commissioned model policy as tempting as trains might be to some of us.

[craigwelsh]

The NRM has iconic locomotives. Are there equally iconic coaches? Yes! Certainly the LNER dynamometer car used on Mallard's record breaking run would meet this requirement.

 

But you don't just buy one coach. While you might buy one iconic locomotive at a suitable douceur price for the NRM, buying a whole train makes the price point much more important to a lot of people.

Surely you'd only buy one dynamometer car?

 

The snag with the trains mentioned too is that its not just say 9 of a particular type of coach. You'd have the problem Dapol currently have with the Pendolino where they don't want to tool all the different coaches in one go but many don't want to buy unless all coach types are available.

 

For 'return on investment' i'd say sticking with locos is certainly their best option.