NRM Midland Compound

[craigwelsh]

Bachmann production or special you're going to have to pay £140+ for a Director anyway by the time new products get to the shelves now with China prices still rising.

 

The Midland engine was known about a few months back as its been ongoing a while.

 

I do like the extra bits of cylinder, something Hornby could have done with on the 28xx/2884.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm getting confusalled here..I didn't say that the compound could have been a normal production run did I? It only scored a measly 22 votes in the last poll. The 11F (LNER D11) on the other hand got the highest number of votes of any loco if you add the D10, D11 and D11/2 variants together.

The point of my post is that an NRM commisioned model (not repaint) denys us any other version of that model. You can have Midland 1000, or Midland 1000. Thats it. City of Truro has not been sold as anything other than City of Truro so I don't see 1000 been any different.

If luck runs my way Bachmann will do a D11 soon as a normal production model available over the years in various eras and various sub classes, and the NRM will commision a repaint in GCR passenger livery like they did with the O4 and I will (and this is for coachman) GLADLY pay a premium for.

Hopefully I've made myself clear. If I havn't, I'm going to learn Mandarin instead! :lol:

I can quite understand your point, I hope, but I think this in reality cuts two ways.

 

Firstly there's the 'would we have got it at all?' situation and that is a very real question in the case of the NRM commissions which have required their own tooling. And still a valid question, I think, in the case of the 8K where it boils down to Bachmann being prepared to take the commercial risk of a batch in Pre-Group livery - something they are gradually learning about (one way or the other) through the NRM commissions. Thus I take the view that the NRM commissions have given one manufacturer some vaulable marketing information they could not have gained in any other way - real sales are a far better indicator of purchaser intent than every wish list ever dreamt up or commissioned or 'letters to umpteen editors'. Plus of course there has been knowledge gained in design and tooling plus manufacturing techniques which - judging by Andy's report - have produced a reliable 4-4-0 arrangement and, as we have seen already, advances in decoration technique and quality.

 

Secondly is the viewpoint of ground (for new models) lost or neutralised by exclusive tooling which serves a higher priced market area - which you have already clearly explained so I won't repeat.

 

The big question is how you value one against the other and this probably comes down, as much as anything else, to the locos etc that you want. I'm happy that the process thus far with the NRM has produced a couple of iconic locos I might not have seen any other way and I'm also happy that Bachmann's experience with NRM commissions has probably led to the production skill & confidence to go for a 'Dukedog'. Thus far I haven't lost out, others perhaps have but overall I think the hobby has gained something from the process.

[kevinlms]

I'm getting confusalled here..I didn't say that the compound could have been a normal production run did I? It only scored a measly 22 votes in the last poll. The 11F (LNER D11) on the other hand got the highest number of votes of any loco if you add the D10, D11 and D11/2 variants together.

The point of my post is that an NRM commisioned model (not repaint) denys us any other version of that model. You can have Midland 1000, or Midland 1000. Thats it. City of Truro has not been sold as anything other than City of Truro so I don't see 1000 been any different.

If luck runs my way Bachmann will do a D11 soon as a normal production model available over the years in various eras and various sub classes, and the NRM will commision a repaint in GCR passenger livery like they did with the O4 and I will (and this is for coachman) GLADLY pay a premium for.

Hopefully I've made myself clear. If I havn't, I'm going to learn Mandarin instead! :lol:

 

To me, if a manufacturer went by that poll, there wouldn't be enough to worry about. Even adding together all the GCR 4-4-0s it comes to less than a total of 120 people showing interest in them. Even limited edition runs of existing models with a different livery/number seem be be higher than that (504 seems to be a common quantity). So exactly why this survey is of any relevance at all is beyond me. Especially when you take into consideration that there seems to be nothing to prevent multiple voting.

 

Kevin Martin

[Guardian]

kevinLMS wrote: [...] and I'm also happy that Bachmann's experience with NRM commissions has probably led to the production skill & confidence to go for a 'Dukedog'

 

I am quite confident that in the contract between NRM and Bachmann, a clause is included which may lead to further models of similar prototype by Bachmann.

 

Btw,

what about the technical specs of the Midland Compound? The usual 21-pin DCC socket and NEM coupling shafts? Anything else like articulated (fixed) loco/tender coupling and rear coupling? Lighting?

 

I wonder whether the screws holding the coupling rods refer properly to the preserved loco...

[D605Eagle]

 

To me, if a manufacturer went by that poll, there wouldn't be enough to worry about. Even adding together all the GCR 4-4-0s it comes to less than a total of 120 people showing interest in them.

 

Kevin Martin

It sounds a small number indeed, but then only 950 people bothered to vote, so that is 12.6% which is a very high % considering how many items there were to choose from.

I'm not sure how much interest the manufacturers take of these polls however, both the dukedog and the "C" scored very low results in the 2010 poll.

[Andy Y]

I am quite confident that in the contract between NRM and Bachmann, a clause is included which may lead to further models of similar prototype by Bachmann. Btw, what about the technical specs of the Midland Compound? The usual 21-pin DCC socket and NEM coupling shafts? Anything else like articulated (fixed) loco/tender coupling and rear coupling? Lighting? I wonder whether the screws holding the coupling rods refer properly to the preserved loco...

 

Have a read of the review topic - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/45688-national-railway-museum-midland-compound-photo-review/

 

It does have NEM pockets and couplings. There is no lighting on this model.

[PaulRhB]

I am quite confident that in the contract between NRM and Bachmann, a clause is included which may lead to further models of similar prototype by Bachmann.

 

covered by Andy here in the photo review thread

 

The National Railway Museum have exclusive rights to the model of Midland Compound 1000 for a period of time in the same manner as the previous 'Deltic' and 'City of Truro' models.

 

So you may have to wait 3 or so years but it will be available eventually, look on the bright side if it had been announced in the catalogue it could still take that long, at least you do know it exists

[wombatofludham]

I have to say the model does look very nice, and presumably there's nothing in the exclusivity deal to stop Bachmann adapting the model to represent an LMS built example once the NRM have exhausted their retail opportunities - always assuming the tools haven't been designed with that in mind already.

 

Now, I wonder if the NRM could be persuaded to commission some limited editions of the AL4 electric?

[Sir Hadyn]

In the "restoration" of the late 1950s of 41000, to quote the technical file "many compromises were made to rebuild the locomotive in Midland Railway form" - and sadly most of these were not documented (apart from the 7F tender), and caused quite a few headaches during the development of this engine, and also means that the model can only be produced as 1000 post 1959. Retooling of various bits would be needed to produce any other Compound.

[frobisher]

It sounds a small number indeed, but then only 950 people bothered to vote, so that is 12.6% which is a very high % considering how many items there were to choose from.

 

A high percentage of a self selecting small cross section of the buying public is to say the least problematical when it comes to making wider decisions. Given that there has been active organisation to "stuff the polls" over the last few years you can see that the views are not necessarily reflective of the buying public as a whole (mind you the annual poll is fundementally flawed anyway but that's an argument for another time and place).

[D605Eagle]

 

A high percentage of a self selecting small cross section of the buying public is to say the least problematical when it comes to making wider decisions. Given that there has been active organisation to "stuff the polls" over the last few years you can see that the views are not necessarily reflective of the buying public as a whole (mind you the annual poll is fundementally flawed anyway but that's an argument for another time and place).

Indeed. I'd say at its best its a rough guide. But manufacturers have taken note in the past to it when items have regularly topped the poll year in year out. And your right, we are drifting off subject here

[coachmann]

From my perspective of nearly 40 years in the model trade, people don't know what they want until you tell them. It sound arrogant on the face of it but it has been born out so often in the past. What people say they need and what they want are two different things. They need sensible everyday locos like 0-6-0 tender engines and intermediete 4-4-0s and 4-6-0s, but they forgot these when someone produces a 'wow' loco that they had never considered, then make excuses to run one on thier layout!

 

The MR Compound, Beattie 2-4-0, Beyer-Garratt, one-off prototype diesel locos and so on.......High in the polls? As for the fabled GCR D11 plus many other locos, I think their only hope is in the field of limited editions.

[Pennine MC]

From my perspective of nearly 40 years in the model trade, people don't know what they want until you tell them. It sound arrogant on the face of it but it has been born out so often in the past.

 

Arrogant or not, I'd pretty much agree with that. As an example, in the 'impact of wishlistery' thread in MMM, I commented how various LNER 0-6-0s had come to prominence over recent years whereas a few years ago, a lot of folk wouldnt have known a J15 from a J27 from a J36. Well maybe not so much identifying them in the literal sense, but I think they'd have been hard put to explain the relative significance/usefulness of each. It's possibly the same effect as the one that fuels criticism of a given model's shortcomings, but without the true knowledge behind it that informs the criticism, or just how much of a problem it is in reality - once awareness of it gathers momentum, it's on a thousand lips and accepted as gospel.

[S.A.C Martin]

 

Arrogant or not, I'd pretty much agree with that. As an example, in the 'impact of wishlistery' thread in MMM, I commented how various LNER 0-6-0s had come to prominence over recent years whereas a few years ago, a lot of folk wouldnt have known a J15 from a J27 from a J36. Well maybe not so much identifying them in the literal sense, but I think they'd have been hard put to explain the relative significance/usefulness of each. It's possibly the same effect as the one that fuels criticism of a given model's shortcomings, but without the true knowledge behind it that informs the criticism, or just how much of a problem it is in reality - once awareness of it gathers momentum, it's on a thousand lips and accepted as gospel.

 

It's pretty much what happened with the Thompson L1 - I'd say it was relatively unknown and very much disliked, until it arrived in 00 form from Hornby and looked - well - stunning! Probably their best model of the last few years. A quick glance at Hattons shows it has sold very well, there's none of the LNER editions and only a few of the BR apple green edition left. The BR versions have come, gone, and have been replaced within the course of a year with new numbers and a weathered version.

 

If any model was an indicator that a relatively obscure class, done well, will also match for sales, it's the L1. But who wanted one before it was known Hornby were making one? (I certainly didn't - I wanted a J50!)

[bluebottle]

...As for the fabled GCR D11...

Fabled? You mean it never existed? Could have sworn I saw one somewhere...

[billbedford]

Indeed. I'd say at its best its a rough guide. But manufacturers have taken note in the past to it when items have regularly topped the poll year in year out. And your right, we are drifting off subject here

Manufacturer taking note of polls or polls reflecting what manufacturer's are planning?

I wonder how many votes it would take to totally skew the polls?

[Ozexpatriate]

Manufacturer taking note of polls or polls reflecting what manufacturer's are planning?

The polls totally reflect manufacturers' plans - after the fact. As soon as a popularly polled item is announced, it plummets in the next poll. This is logical and causal.

 

As has been said in the Impact of Wishlistery thread, clearly manufacturers are not solely guided by polls, though sometimes they might be a factor.

 

I wonder how many votes it would take to totally skew the polls?

In hindsight, not very many, but enough that you really need to make an effort. If say I wanted to manipulate a GWR Star (50 votes in 2011) to the number one GWR place (42xx at 74 votes) I'd still need to round up 25 more voters.

 

A well managed online campaign that worked on a sensible consensus could possibly achieve this, but is it that important? It's more a topic for the thread linked above.

 

This year the MR compound got 5 votes and the Garratt 37. I don't think the NRM was looking at polling numbers when they made their decision. I haven't bothered to count how many people in the Garratt thread said they'd actually buy one, but there there were 296 posts on it and my very rough guess is that there might have been close to 37* or so RMwebbers who said they would.

 

* There were at least three on the first of 12 pages, not very scientific, but I didn't care to do more than that.

 

Bachmann appear to have made a very nice model of the MR compound for the NRM. I'm sure many people will enjoy it and contribute to the NRM as they do so.

[coachmann]

The Compound was a no brainer regardless of polls. Although the last one went in 1953, I suspect many modellers will buy this beautiful scale model to produce the LMS version. This type then covers the 1925-62 era and as these engines worked all over the LMS system covering England, Wales and Scotland, there is a potentially sizeable market. Mainline running in preservation into the diesel era is another plus.

[The Stationmaster]

I think we need to recognise that the NRM works in a slightly different way from other commissioning folk (e.g. retailers) and definitely in a different way from the main manufacturers. It is bound to be seeking items from its own collection and within that rather wide starting point it will be looking for something which is iconic/popular enough to sell in its own right in sufficient numbers to cover its cost. Thus opinion is gathered within the museum's range of contacts as well - perhaps? - from wider sources and I know that the Compound, among others, has been proposed by groups associated with the museum. But always the primary aim will surely be to go for something 'museum centric' that will sell and will satisfy a wider market as well (I've just thought of the ideal next 'possible' ; I'll say no more).

 

One point which does interest me tho' is the end of 'exclusivity' on these models and presumably that might be related to their stocks as much as other factors? 'CoT' is still available from the NRM in both liveries and it would no doubt hit one potential area of continuing sales if Bachmann were to produce another 'City' at their more usual price level.

[brushman47544]

I think we need to recognise that the NRM works in a slightly different way from other commissioning folk (e.g. retailers) and definitely in a different way from the main manufacturers. It is bound to be seeking items from its own collection and within that rather wide starting point it will be looking for something which is iconic/popular enough to sell in its own right in sufficient numbers to cover its cost. Thus opinion is gathered within the museum's range of contacts as well - perhaps? - from wider sources and I know that the Compound, among others, has been proposed by groups associated with the museum. But always the primary aim will surely be to go for something 'museum centric' that will sell and will satisfy a wider market as well (I've just thought of the ideal next 'possible' ; I'll say no more).

 

One point which does interest me tho' is the end of 'exclusivity' on these models and presumably that might be related to their stocks as much as other factors? 'CoT' is still available from the NRM in both liveries and it would no doubt hit one potential area of continuing sales if Bachmann were to produce another 'City' at their more usual price level.

This question of "exclusivity" interests me too. Hornby has yet to produce a new Castle with single chimney, Collett tender and late crest. I presumed this was related to the Steam Museum limited edition of 7037 Swindon, where it would make sense for the Museum if Hornby agreed not to produce a standard release until the L/E had sold out. Now it has, maybe we'll see a standard release in the next catalogue.

 

The NRM could have agreed similar arrangements for its models with Bachmann - after xxx number of models have been produced/sold, exclusivity ends? It makes sense to protect yourself from being undercut by standard releases, for an agreed period at least.

[S.A.C Martin]

Maybe it's just me thinking too much on it, but can you really expect either Deltic, Truro, or the compound to appear in Bachmann's range in any form?

 

If they were to appear, let's think on what would happen.

 

In Deltic's case, they would no longer be exclusive, and the NRM would lose sales because modellers would go towards the box shifters. Arguably, this would be the case for both the City and Compound toolings if they were to re-emerge with different names/numbers.

 

I can't see any exclusives from the NRM ever becoming available in the standard Bachmann range on that basis. However, as we saw with Deltic, who is to say other scales might not benefit from the work done on Truro and the Compound in future...?

 

The more I think about the Compound, the more I realize it's actually a very savvy choice by the management. Out of the public eye, per say, from the NRM itself and therefore was more available for measuring up and photographing without being disturbed. Modelling Truro before and then the Compound afterwards gives steam to diesel era modellers an opportunity to buy both and run them together on a "railtour". Add into that the sheer difference between Truro's looks to the Compound's and you have an all new model with a significant wow factor in shape and colour.

 

So my disappointment at what would not have been my choice has actually turned to admiration, for the choice itself is a very clever one which was no doubt undertaken with a sincere amount of thought and careful development to that end in mind.

 

That being the case, I wouldn't be surprised to see another 4-4-0 in the exclusive collection in years to come - and whichever of the two I have in mind it could be, both would be greatly received by modellers for being handsome and attractive in their own right (and like Truro and the Compound, are both pre-grouping 4-4-0s too). Both green, too!

[brushman47544]

Maybe it's just me thinking too much on it, but can you really expect either Deltic, Truro, or the compound to appear in Bachmann's range in any form?

 

If they were to appear, let's think on what would happen.

 

In Deltic's case, they would no longer be exclusive, and the NRM would lose sales because modellers would go towards the box shifters. Arguably, this would be the case for both the City and Compound toolings if they were to re-emerge with different names/numbers.

 

I can't see any exclusives from the NRM ever becoming available in the standard Bachmann range on that basis. However, as we saw with Deltic, who is to say other scales might not benefit from the work done on Truro and the Compound in future...?

 

We're not privy to Bachmann's contracts with the NRM or indeed anyone else, such as Kernow, Modelzone or Rail Exclusive who have all "paid" for new tooling for a model, whether the complete model or not. But I don't think we can say "never". At some point, unless the NRM owns the drawings and tooling or the contract specifically forbids it, which seems unlikely but who knows, at some point in the future Bachmann will be able to produce a standard model if it wants to and thinks there's sufficient demand. In some cases, there will be no alternative but the one version, such as Deltic, but for others there are potential renumberings, new tender combinations etc. that could be offered.

 

I accept its unlikely whilst the NRM is still selling plenty of models, but will they do so indefinately or stop if sales start dropping off and the market appears to be saturated?

[bluebottle]

Some posters are, understandably, looking forward to a standard version of the Bachmann compound appearing when the NRM's one runs out. I'd been waiting for a good model of my favourite red engine, which could run alongside black and green ones, but the price gives me pause. Is there any chance of a cheaper one to something like the same standard appearing this side of my shuffling off this mortal coil, or do I have to bite the bullet and go for this one?

[S.A.C Martin]

Some posters are, understandably, looking forward to a standard version of the Bachmann compound appearing when the NRM's one runs out. I'd been waiting for a good model of my favourite red engine, which could run alongside black and green ones, but the price gives me pause. Is there any chance of a cheaper one to something like the same standard appearing this side of my shuffling off this mortal coil, or do I have to bite the bullet and go for this one?

 

As discussed earlier, you could buy the Hornby Compound at £70 if the £140 of the NRM's standard edition is too high.

 

I suspect not many will take that option, however, if what they want is top quality for the locomotive in question.

[Pennine MC]

Maybe it's just me thinking too much on it, but can you really expect either Deltic, Truro, or the compound to appear in Bachmann's range in any form?

 

I see them all as slightly different, but the Compound most different of all. Deltic is unique, and the City may as well be - whilst pre-Group locos are patently a growth area, I think they're only going to be viable as mainstream releases if they're either reasonably long lived, or iconic (as CoT undoubtedly is). The Compound is the only one of the three that represents a class of significant size and that lasted well into the BR period (and yes I know the pukka LMS one are different, but I'd be surprised if Barwell hadnt taken account of that when tooling up).