Gresley Buffet Cars in the 70s

[Halvarras]

Oo 'eck Justin, now you've done it - I'm already feeling the urge to dig out that 40-year old kit! I'm willing to accept that W9135W - the one I want to do - looked the same up top.

 

Many thanks also for the two views of the 'kitchen' side - your own and Ian's from 2010 - now I have no excuse at all! 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Ahem, W9135E.

 

Mike.

[Phil Bullock]

8 hours ago, justin said:

Roof details on (of E9124E rather than E9123E) Click on photo for link to Flickr

 

Cracking photo.

Roof canvas by Nora Batty?

Edited October 27, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[Halvarras]

6 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Ahem, W9135E.

 

Mike.

 

D'oh! Yes of course Mike. That what comes from typing at stupid o'clock!

[Halvarras]

PS but, wandering OT for a moment, this does remind me that while researching Bulleid coaches in maroon livery I came across a photo of a maroon brake composite numbered W6715W (and this time I do mean two W's Mike!) The WR apparently had 37 Bulleid brake vehicles on its books in the early 1960s, possibly earlier, and maybe this numbering indicates that responsibility for their maintenance had also passed from the SR to the WR?

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Carriage and wagon numbering history is littered with such examples, the Newton Chambers car carriers were ExxxxxxE initially I believe.

 

Mike.

[leopardml2341]

 too.

 

I recently bought the Class 33 60yr history book, and in there is a pic of a MK1 BG numbered S8nnnnS !

[mark54]

On 23/10/2020 at 06:54, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

On that page also, the un-identified car at the unknown location is at Sheffield Midland, and is definitely not W9135E.

 

Mike.

The buffet car at Sheffield Midland is diagram 275 E9195E which in rebuilt form looked very similar to a standard diagram 167 car.

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by mark54

[keefer]

@Neil Phillips another roof view for you. Like you, I don't know how much the layout changed over time or between vehicles (if it did) but this one's a bit clearer anyway.

47_Newcastle_1N48_1968-crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

EDIT: there does seem to be a chance of differences, compare this pic to that of E9124E posted previously

Edited October 27, 2020 by keefer

[jimwal]

On 26/10/2020 at 22:22, justin said:

Roof details (of E9124E rather than E9123E) Click on photo for link to Flickr

 

The roof covering on this coach looks like bitumen roofing felt, what you may use to cover the garden shed.

There are no long rainstrips nor destination board brackets.

 

Perhaps it was done on the cheap if the coach was due to be taken out of service soon.

 

 

41 minutes ago, keefer said:

@Neil Phillips another roof view for you. Like you, I don't know how much the layout changed over time or between vehicles (if it did) but this one's a bit clearer anyway.

47_Newcastle_1N48_1968-crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

EDIT: there does seem to be a chance of differences, compare this pic to that of E9124E posted previously

This one looks much more like the original layout.

[31A]

9 hours ago, jimwal said:

The roof covering on this coach looks like bitumen roofing felt, what you may use to cover the garden shed.

There are no long rainstrips nor destination board brackets.

 

Perhaps it was done on the cheap if the coach was due to be taken out of service soon.

 

 

This one looks much more like the original layout.

 

The picture of E9124E was taken at Loughborough on the preserved GCR; I'd thought the roof covering was probably something that had been done after preservation to try and make it watertight, rather than a repair that BR would have done.

[Halvarras]

23 hours ago, keefer said:

@Neil Phillips another roof view for you. Like you, I don't know how much the layout changed over time or between vehicles (if it did) but this one's a bit clearer anyway.

47_Newcastle_1N48_1968-crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

EDIT: there does seem to be a chance of differences, compare this pic to that of E9124E posted previously

 

Many thanks Keefer, I believe you're right about the chance of differences - I've retrieved my Kirk kit from the loft because I had some photos of W9135E stored in the packaging (none of which are much cop......and I took two of them! At Reading with an Instamatic I hasten to add) to see which of these two roof views it matches, as far as I can tell. And I think it's the Newcastle shot BUT less the middle vent at the far end. The outer two certainly don't appear to be as close together as in the view of E9124E at Loughborough found by Justin (that roof job must have cleared the local DIY store of roofing felt, as jimwal observed - maybe one of those 'necessity being the mother of invention' situations!)

Anyway, the kit is on my modelling table now and I've been doing some comparing against photos and measuring to try to understand the extent of the modification to the panelling on the 'kitchen' side. Helpfully the coach side is firmly attached to a thick sprue along its top edge, which should keep it rigid while it's being hacked about. I have a few other things to do before I can get around to this, but the dear old thing is now close to the top of my to-do list - at last! Now's a good time to be honest as I have a BR Mark 1 inspection saloon (DB999508 fashioned from parts of one and a half Tri-ang  buffet cars) which requires painting into the same colours. Well, without the yellow ends, obviously  !!

[jimwal]

On 28/10/2020 at 09:10, 31A said:

 

The picture of E9124E was taken at Loughborough on the preserved GCR; I'd thought the roof covering was probably something that had been done after preservation to try and make it watertight, rather than a repair that BR would have done.

 

Yes, agree that's likely to be the case here.

 

Having worked on a heritage line restoring carriages the costs soon mount up. It is sometimes necessary to do an interim job to get a vehicle into service until funds are available to do a full restoration.

 

One reason why preserved items should be checked for authenticity.

[rodent279]

On 01/12/2009 at 15:56, Natalie said:

Can I suggest joining Robert Carroll's British Railway Coaching Stock yahoo group. There is a file in the archives that details all the known pre-nationalisation design passenger carrying stock that carried blue/grey. There are also some photographs of the Gresley design. One of the last vehicles to be withdrawn we have now on the GCR (9124E) which although it has been repainted in crimson/cream it remains bodily in as-withdrawn (ie rebuilt) condition. It is currently out of use awaiting some repairs. I may have some photos that are useful to you if require them.

 

Regarding the Fort William sleeper I have never heard of the use of Gresley buffets on this. Maybe things are getting muddled up a little with another service- The Night Limited. For a while (c1969-1975) two interesting vehicles were allocated to this service which ran nightly between Euston and Glasgow Central in both directions. Two sets of stock were provided to operate these all sleeper services. Also included was a buffet service- provided by two ex Pullman cars branded as 'Nightcap Bar' one running in each set. One was a MetCamm design Mk1 M354E - as made by Bachmann whilst the other was M310E which was a 1951 Pullman originally built for the Golden Arrow as 'Pegasus'. Of interest is that both cars carried conventional blue/grey livery with a full length red catering band and lettered 'Nightcap Bar'. Pegasus is the vehicle that was rebuilt and now works as part of the charter fleet.

I know this is an old post now, but with the imminent demise of Yahoo groups, I thought I'd post a link to the Coaching Stock group on io:-

 

https://brcoachingstock.groups.io/g/main

[rodent279]

PS to the above: a vote of thanks is due to those who have contributed, and continue to contribute, to the BRCS group. It's a mine of information, the sort of stuff that I as young spotter in the late 70's/early to mid 80's, completely overlooked.

 

[cravensdmufan]

I have been enjoying this thread - I well remember blue/grey Gresley buffet cars in the 70's - travelled in them many times on BR's wonderful Merrymaker excursions from stations on the GE section.  I was in my early teens and unfortunately didn't have a camera in those days to capture them on film.

 

My layout is set between 1985-1995 but I just had to have Hornby's lovely model, and here it is abandoned at the end of a siding - awaiting preservation!  

[montyburns56]

 E9128E Leeds 1975 by Paul Haywood

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

On 23/10/2020 at 06:54, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

On that page also, the un-identified car at the unknown location is at Sheffield Midland, and is definitely not W9135E.

 

Mike.

Dragging up an old post, looking at the photo of the buffet at Sheffield Midland, I don't think it is a dia 167 but the rebuilt dia 275 E9195E. It has deeper siding vents and the space between the second and third windows appears wider than between the first and second and the third and fourth. This is where the partition was between the dinning seats and the buffet seats when it was a Restaurant Buffet.

 

As posted by Robert some time earlier in this thread

 

 

[rodent279]

On 27/10/2020 at 23:11, jimwal said:

On 26/10/2020 at 22:22, justin said:

 

Expand  

The roof covering on this coach looks like bitumen roofing felt, what you may use to cover the garden shed.

There are no long rainstrips nor destination board brackets.

 

Perhaps it was done on the cheap if the coach was due to be taken out of service soon.

 

Don't  *think* I've  posted this before, apologies if I have, but here is E9124E at Quorn, in 1999. Looks like the roof is now more original. I'd love to see this back in b+g, if only for a short while, pending full repaint.

 

 

[ikcdab]

so for the 4 or 5 that were transferred to the southern during 1966 and 67, what was their livery? I have seen a b/w photo that shows it to be a single colour, so i assume they were all maroon, as the Southern would not have got around to painting them green?

Ian

[Trestrol]

Do you mean the Cafeteria cars converted from Third class Sleepers? These went to France during the Second World War as part of ambulance trains. They did not return until long after the war had ended. 

[Clive Mortimore]

3 hours ago, ikcdab said:

so for the 4 or 5 that were transferred to the southern during 1966 and 67, what was their livery? I have seen a b/w photo that shows it to be a single colour, so i assume they were all maroon, as the Southern would not have got around to painting them green?

Ian

They remained maroon as far as I know.

3 hours ago, Trestrol said:

Do you mean the Cafeteria cars converted from Third class Sleepers? These went to France during the Second World War as part of ambulance trains. They did not return until long after the war had ended. 

There were some Gresley Buffets transferred to the SR in the 60s to cover for the BR Mk1 catering cars being converted to run in the 4 REP sets once the Bournemouth electrification was completed.

The Cafeteria cars had been withdrawn a couple of years earlier.

[chris45lsw]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

They remained maroon as far as I know.

There were some Gresley Buffets transferred to the SR in the 60s to cover for the BR Mk1 catering cars being converted to run in the 4 REP sets once the Bournemouth electrification was completed.

The Cafeteria cars had been withdrawn a couple of years earlier.

Two of the Cafeteria Cars, S9211E & S9213E, which were converted from Sleepers (at Eastleigh by the way) remained on the SR.   Initially they were crimson & cream, later green.  They were withdrawn in Dec 1962.  The Gresley Buffets transferred to the SR in the run up to the Bournemouth electrification remained in maroon.

Chris KT

[montyburns56]

E9115E Manchester Piccadilly 1976

 

 

[montyburns56]

I realised last night that there is actually a Flickr Pool for all of the pictures of NE Buffet cars in Blue/grey, so if you need any reference pics...