Hattons Model Railways of Widnes (formerly Liverpool).

[oreamnos]

Speaking from the USA the Royal Mail is great - except in the run up to Christmas when lead times really get strung out to 12 weeks or so for Airmail parcels.

Mind you I've never had to pay custom fees on anything from the UK...

 

best, Pete.

 

There is no U.S. customs duty to pay on any model railway item imported to the USA from the UK (and most other countries, too).  See the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States at: http://hts.usitc.gov/

 

This was one of the very first things I researched before I switched to British outline in 2005 as I wasn't going to make the switch if I had to pay duty!

 

Model railway items fall into Section XX "Miscellaneous manufacturerd articles," Chapter 95 "Toys, games and sports requisites; parts and accessories," Heading 9503.00.00.  Scale models ("working or not") are lumped in with tricycles, dolls, puzzles, etc.

 

The Schedule is kind of a fascinating document in its own way.  For instance, you can learn there is a 3.3% general import duty per each nuclear reactor imported into the USA from any country, with some special excecptions for certain countries.  Who knew?

 

Matt

[Budgie]

There is no U.S. customs duty to pay on any model railway item imported to the USA from the UK (and most other countries, too).  See the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States at: http://hts.usitc.gov/

I assume this works the other way around, too. Which would explain why I've never paid any import duty on anything I've imported from the USA. But I do get stung for VAT sometimes.

[melmerby]

I assume this works the other way around, too. Which would explain why I've never paid any import duty on anything I've imported from the USA. But I do get stung for VAT sometimes.

You certainly pay duty on CDs, whether they are cheaper than UK or not. (I got stung with a purchase from a UK supplier that shipped the goods from the US)

I complained to Amazon and was pointed to their conditions for Marketplace sellers which shows that purchasers are responsible to check that duty/VAT had been levied.

 

Keith

[Stevelewis]

I import  quite  a bit  of  0n30  from  the  states  (from Micromark.com)    There  is  no duty on  Model  railway  items  from  the  states  but  VAT is  chargeable if the  total value  is  over  £18.00.

so I have  to  remembr to  ad  20%  when  doing  my calculations  ( and  there  is  also  an £8.00 flat  rate  service  charge as  well!!)

[trisonic]

You certainly pay duty on CDs, whether they are cheaper than UK or not. (I got stung with a purchase from a UK supplier that shipped the goods from the US)

I complained to Amazon and was pointed to their conditions for Marketplace sellers which shows that purchasers are responsible to check that duty/VAT had been levied.

 

Keith

Interesting. I don't pay local sales taxes on just about anything ordered from within the USA but  outside of my home 'State (New Jersey).

It loks likely that this loophole may soon be plugged... Not too bad as the equivalent to VAT in New Jersey is 6.5%.

 

Best, Pete.

[melmerby]

Interesting. I don't pay local sales taxes on just about anything ordered from within the USA but  outside of my home 'State (New Jersey).

It loks likely that this loophole may soon be plugged... Not too bad as the equivalent to VAT in New Jersey is 6.5%.

 

Best, Pete.

The ridiculous thing was that the CDs were UK made and the price I was paying was the same as other UK Marketplace sellers, who were shipping from the UK, VAT included!

The reason I selected the one seller was that they had all 5 of the set I wanted, other sellers were missing one or two.

I ended up paying about 20-25% over the odds in the end. I cannot see why the seller had to ship from the US goods that were made in the UK.

I now check carefully to see where any goods are shipped from and whether the seller is paying the required taxes.

 

IMHO Marketplace sellers on Amazon UK should be showing the price including all UK taxes, anything else is deception.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[big jim]

called in to hattons today en-route to edge hill, last time i visited was in 2009 and i wasn't impressed, boxes everywhere so not able to see what was in the cabinets easily and no service to speak of HOWEVER calling in there today i was impressed, no boxes, helpful staff and the items i wanted (not going to say needed!) were available in the shop to take away at a good price (£66 for 8 BP green TTA wagons)

 

i take it they have moved the mail order side of things away from the shop?

[dandg]

Yes, Hatton's warehouse opened (I think) in 2011.  

 

called in to hattons today en-route to edge hill, last time i visited was in 2009 and i wasn't impressed, boxes everywhere so not able to see what was in the cabinets easily and no service to speak of HOWEVER calling in there today i was impressed, no boxes, helpful staff and the items i wanted (not going to say needed!) were available in the shop to take away at a good price (£66 for 8 BP green TTA wagons)

i take it they have moved the mail order side of things away from the shop?

[Gwiwer]

Yes, Hatton's warehouse opened (I think) in 2011.  

 

As a consequence of which - with much more warehousing available - they have also been able to offer a much wider range of ancillary and more general modeling products and not just trains themselves.  It's all good.

[250BOB]

If the likes of Hornby/Bachmann are starting to make smaller production runs of items.......is this a long term problem for them.  As I assume rightly or wrongly that they take surplus stock from the manufacturer at bargain prices, and knock it out cheaply.

 

I may be completely off the mark here....but just a thought.

 

Bob

[Gwiwer]

It may be no more than supply and demand balancing out across the hobby.  Hattons are a big retailer, yes, but not the only one.  Manufacturers need to have product exposure across the country and it would be in their interests to be able to supply as many shops as they reasonably can.  On the other hand they need stock to sell and while 500 of "Model X" might sell via Hattons they won't from the average model shop.  

 

The question is do we want to go down the road of having a single supplier offering substantial discounts and no product (therefore potentially no shops ) elsewhere?  And are the manufacturers willing to keep supplying supermarket quantities at supermarket discounts as their own costs rise sharply?

 

Most items can be readily obtained elsewhere albeit not necessarily at the same price (though sometimes even cheaper) and I'm sure many of us would prefer to have "local" shops around the country able to remain in business.

 

As a small aside if Hattons were the only retailer left how many special commissions might we get?  They do a few but we could lose the initiative of places such as Kernow, Olivias, Harburn and Modelzone ..... 

[oreamnos]

[edit]  

 

The question is do we want to go down the road of having a single supplier offering substantial discounts and no product (therefore potentially no shops ) elsewhere?  And are the manufacturers willing to keep supplying supermarket quantities at supermarket discounts as their own costs rise sharply?

 

Most items can be readily obtained elsewhere albeit not necessarily at the same price (though sometimes even cheaper)  [edit]

 

Competition in the marketplace is good for the consumer and I would not wish to got down that road!  I think we would find that were there just a single supplier, (Hatton's or otherwise) we would not see any discounts at all!  Being an N gauge modeller, I also have to wonder if Bachmann would have been so quick to update the old Farish range if Dapol had not enterred the market.  IMHO, I don't think it would have.

 

I am almost certain Hattons' does not offer lower prices because it obtains surplus stock from manufacturers.  Instead it purchases more inventory from the manufacturers ("buying in bulk") compared to a small shop.  By taking on the risk of being stuck with bigger inventory it might be unable to sell, Hattons can negotiate a lower wholesale price with the manufacturers, which it passes along to the consumer.

 

A few years ago Hattons included in a parcel it sent me (I don't know why) a wholesale invoice for items it had taken into inventory from one of the major manufacturers.  The invoice of course included the wholesale unit prices of the items.  By comparing the wholesale prices therein with the retail prices being asked by Hattons, I could see the retail markup over wholesale was about 33%.  That's a significant margin and from it, I can surmise that smaller shops who compete with the big box shifters on price are simply accepting smaller profit margins given that there is certainly room there to come down.

 

Matt

Edited May 23, 2013 by oreamnos

[250BOB]

Competition in the marketplace is good for the consumer and I would not wish to got down that road!  I think we would find that were there just a single supplier, (Hatton's or otherwise) we would not see any discounts at all!  Being an N gauge modeller, I also have to wonder if Bachmann would have been so quick to update the old Farish range if Dapol had not enterred the market.  IMHO, I don't think it would have.

 

I am almost certain Hattons' does not offer lower prices because it obtains surplus stock from manufacturers.  Instead it purchases more inventory from the manufacturers ("buying in bulk") compared to a small shop.  By taking on the risk of being stuck with bigger inventory it might be unable to sell, Hattons can negotiate a lower wholesale price with the manufacturers, which it passes along to the consumer.

 

A few years ago Hattons included in a parcel it sent me (I don't know why) a wholesale invoice for items it had taken into inventory from one of the major manufacturers.  The invoice of course included the wholesale unit prices of the items.  By comparing the wholesale prices therein with the retail prices being asked by Hattons, I could see the retail markup over wholesale was about 33%.  That's a significant margin and from it, I can surmise that smaller shops who compete with the big box shifters on price are simply accepting smaller profit margins given that there is certainly room there to come down.

 

Matt

Hi Matt

But if the big manufacturers are not making large quantities anymore....then bulk buying with the associated discount is no longer possible or is it.??

 

And you dont think that Hattons buys older surplus stocks from say Hornby at lower prices.......you may be right, I really dont know the answer to that one, I just sometimes wonder.

 

I NEVER use Hattons, much preferring to support my local model shop, and pay the extra.

 

Use it, or lose it.

 

Bob 

[oreamnos]

Hi Matt

But if the big manufacturers are not making large quantities anymore....then bulk buying with the associated discount is no longer possible or is it.??

 

And you dont think that Hattons buys older surplus stocks from say Hornby at lower prices.......you may be right, I really dont know the answer to that one, I just sometimes wonder.

 

I NEVER use Hattons, much preferring to support my local model shop, and pay the extra.

 

Use it, or lose it.

 

Bob 

 

We can only speculate about the effect of smaller batch sizes on prices, I'm afraid.  As I model N gauge, batch sizes are already going to be significantly lower than any given batch in OO.  I cannot say I noticed any lesser amount of discount last year by Hattons and yet the shift to smaller batches was already in place, I'm sure.  This year Bachmann have apparently imposed a two month moratorium after initial release on discounting, whereby shops are prohibited from selling Bachmann goods with more than a 15% markdown, so the prices for upcoming models really don't reflect the full discount shops might be willing to give.

 

As for surplus stock again, as an N gauger I don't follow Hornby prices.  I can say that that Hattons has in the past offered occasional significant discounts on older Farish releases, quite out of the blue.  For instance, last year suddenly they had 6 green Class 14s (from the first batch) on offer for 49 quid.  The models were both old stock and at a signicant discount.  However, given that the Farish website indicated the model was out of stock with Bachmann, my suspicion is that those models were obtained by Hattons from a source other than Bachmann at significant discount.  From another shop's going out of business sale, perhaps.

 

Having said that, however, I have found that for Farish items other shops offer bigger discounts than Hattons does for old stock items.  For instance, Model Railways direct is currently offering green Farish Peaks right now for less than £50, but Hatton's "bargain" price is still £67.  In fact, sometimes Hattons obtains one or two examples of out of production liveries and offers them at a premium price over the current batch of the same model.  The new and old batch of Dapol B17s comes to mind right now.  The new one is £85, the old one is £10 more.

 

I completely agree with you that local model shops should be supported provided they provide good service.  I have read elsewhere on this board where a local UK shop insisted a newly purchased but defective loco be returned to and serviced by the manufacturer instead of replacing it pursuant to Trading Standards.  From personal experience I know Hattons would not have quibbled like that and would have replaced the item immediately.  Given that I live in California I really cannot give a local shop my custom, of course.  Hattons have always been excellent and have a proven track-record with me.  I estimate it receives about 85% of all my model rail custom as a consequence.

 

Matt

[melmerby]

Hi Matt

 

I NEVER use Hattons, much preferring to support my local model shop, and pay the extra.

 

Use it, or lose it.

 

Bob

That's alright if you have a local model shop!

The nearest I have to a local shop is when I visit Ian Allan in Birmingham. However they can hardly be called "local" with 4 shops and a publishing business.

I purchase from them if the item is available and at a reasonable price, (Not necessarily the lowest price) saving on the postage if I had bought from a mail-order/internet supplier.

 

Keith

[Dunsignalling]

The ridiculous thing was that the CDs were UK made and the price I was paying was the same as other UK Marketplace sellers, who were shipping from the UK, VAT included!

The reason I selected the one seller was that they had all 5 of the set I wanted, other sellers were missing one or two.

I ended up paying about 20-25% over the odds in the end. I cannot see why the seller had to ship from the US goods that were made in the UK.

I now check carefully to see where any goods are shipped from and whether the seller is paying the required taxes.

 

IMHO Marketplace sellers on Amazon UK should be showing the price including all UK taxes, anything else is deception.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

I sometimes order CDs through Marketplace on Amazon's US site for half or less than the prices quoted on the UK site (if you want something obscure, MusicStack are often better) so I have still come out ahead. The downside is if the item gets delayed by UK Customs - my worst one was about 3 weeks and the US supplier had gone to quite a lot of trouble to find me a replacement when I finally received the VAT invoice!

 

With several of these orders, the goods actually came from UK dealers advertising on the US website so VAT wasn't an issue!    

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

 

I completely agree with you that local model shops should be supported provided they provide good service.  I have read elsewhere on this board where a local UK shop insisted a newly purchased but defective loco be returned to and serviced by the manufacturer instead of replacing it pursuant to Trading Standards.  From personal experience I know Hattons would not have quibbled like that and would have replaced the item immediately.  

 

Matt

Everything is made in limited numbers these days and an identical replacement for a 'Sell-out" model may not be available. In those circumstances, rectification is often more acceptable.  

 

John

[250BOB]

That's alright if you have a local model shop!

The nearest I have to a local shop is when I visit Ian Allan in Birmingham. However they can hardly be called "local" with 4 shops and a publishing business.

I purchase from them if the item is available and at a reasonable price, (Not necessarily the lowest price) saving on the postage if I had bought from a mail-order/internet supplier.

 

Keith

Hi Keith

I totally appreciate that if you dont have a local shop, then mail order is your best option..

 

My local shops are Stoke 18miles, Stafford 12miles, Tutbury 10miles and Derby 20miles......I choose to use the Stoke shop, Hobbygoblin, and have built up a relationship such that my loco purchases are 4 or 5 pounds dearer than Hattons...the postage difference.

 

And the shop is so friendly, with a great exchange of banter and ideas.

 

 

Bob

Edited May 28, 2013 by 250BOB

[250BOB]

I sometimes order CDs through Marketplace on Amazon's US site for half or less than the prices quoted on the UK site (if you want something obscure, MusicStack are often better) so I have still come out ahead. The downside is if the item gets delayed by UK Customs - my worst one was about 3 weeks and the US supplier had gone to quite a lot of trouble to find me a replacement when I finally received the VAT invoice!

 

With several of these orders, the goods actually came from UK dealers advertising on the US website so VAT wasn't an issue!    

 

John

How the heck does HMRC work out where to get the tax from....its a minefield.

[Dunsignalling]

How the heck does HMRC work out where to get the tax from....its a minefield.

If the goods are coming from a UK dealer, the dealer (in the usual way).

 

If from abroad, they invoice me and forward the packet when I have paid. However, when a shipment has been only one or two discs, they have seldom bothered. Maybe the admin costs would exceed the modest amount collected.

 

I think my earlier post might have made it sound more complicated than it really is!

 

The deal will generally be transacted in dollars if done through a US website irrespective of the vendor's location but the credit card company convert it to sterling before debiting my account.

 

None of this seems to phase anyone involved so I presume I'm not the only Brit to have done it! 

 

John

[Ian Hargrave]

Website having problems this morning........

[Dunsignalling]

Website having problems this morning........

Still unavailable....

[davefrk]

Website having problems this morning........

 

Yep, just when an item I'm waiting for is due in the website goes down. I wonder if it's cause everyone else is ordering the same item.... I don't have much luck with Hattons, should I be casting my net further afield I ask myself.....

 

Dave.

[Tase]

You could call them Dave...

[Free At Last]

You could call them Dave...

Why would you call them Dave?

Or is this a "Trigger" moment.