Hattons Model Railways of Widnes (formerly Liverpool).

[oreamnos]

I responded on the day it arrived. I was told to send it back - was not told to send it back in any particular way. I wrapped it up and took it straight to the post office. I don't think most people would have seen any need to read any terms and conditions first.

Each to his own though. As I said, I thought it was an unfortunate situation and was surprised by the response.

 

I don't dispute their right to refuse but I was only guilty of going the wrong way about helping them correct their own error.

 

Bottom line was that I was unhappy and voted with my wallet.

 

While I absolutely understand why you would be upset, in sum I'm afraid I agree with Hattons on this, too.  You said in post #198 that you sent it recorded post because you didn't want to risk being out of pocket in case the returned item went astray.  What you were really asking Hattons to do was to subsidize your peace of mind when you returned the item to them.

 

I know Hattons sent you the wrong item in the first place but given they paid for postage again without any charge to you in order to ship you the correct item, I personally think its postage refund policy is reasonable.  As you said though, each to his own.

 

A very wise woman told me something when I was once affronted by something.  She said, "You're not as important as you think you are."  I've since found that to be a very helpful bit of advice in getting on in the world, day-to-day.

 

Matt

[Not Captain Kernow]

From the Distance Selling Regulations

 

Your customers’ duty to take care of goods

 

When a customer returns the goods to you in accordance with the contract, the customer must take reasonable care to ensure that you receive the goods and that the goods are not damaged in transit. If the customer does not exercise reasonable care and the goods are damaged, you may have a claim against them for breach of this duty. If a customer fails to return the goods despite being required to by the contract, then you may have a claim against the customer for breach of contract.

 

If you have not provided the required information, you cannot charge anything, even if it is in your contract.

 

You cannot charge for returns if the goods are faulty or do not comply with the contract or order.

[Philip Jackson]

i had a search through the site but didn't see this on rmweb yet

 

http://www.baytvliverpool.com/vod/?vid=PBV52a74c38f2434

[oreamnos]

From the Distance Selling Regulations

 

Your customers’ duty to take care of goods

 

When a customer returns the goods to you in accordance with the contract, the customer must take reasonable care to ensure that you receive the goods and that the goods are not damaged in transit. If the customer does not exercise reasonable care and the goods are damaged, you may have a claim against them for breach of this duty. If a customer fails to return the goods despite being required to by the contract, then you may have a claim against the customer for breach of contract.

 

If you have not provided the required information, you cannot charge anything, even if it is in your contract.

 

You cannot charge for returns if the goods are faulty or do not comply with the contract or order.

 

This is informative.  The crux of the issue is if a consumer takes reasonable care.  I think the vast majority of people (and the courts) would agree that returning an item in the package and packaging it was received in via the same means by which it was delivered (e.g., standard Royal Mail) would meet the reasonable care standard.

 

Insuring the returned item against loss (e.g. by using registerred post), however, really has no bearing on whether or not reasonable care was taken by the sender to protect the goods during the return.   It is superfluous in that regard and is solely for the peace of mind of the sender and is of no benefit to the intended recipient.  Given that, I find no fault at all with Hatton's policy on refunding postage.

 

Matt

Edited December 11, 2013 by oreamnos

[Colin_McLeod]

Hattons electronic newsletter includes this interview on BayTV Liverpool. Very interesting and good publicity for Hattons and the hobby.

 

http://www.baytvliverpool.com/vod/?vid=PBV52a74c38f2434

[dandg]

My L&Y 2-4-2T was delivered by Yodel at 0944, around 15 hours after it was packed.   I had specified delivery by RM but had Hattons used RM I suspect the delivery would have been on Thursday!

[37pits]

I ordered a Bachmann 6 car Pullman set on Sunday, goods arrived first thing Tuesday - excellent service

[sub39h]

While I absolutely understand why you would be upset, in sum I'm afraid I agree with Hattons on this, too.  You said in post #198 that you sent it recorded post because you didn't want to risk being out of pocket in case the returned item went astray.  What you were really asking Hattons to do was to subsidize your peace of mind when you returned the item to them.

 

I know Hattons sent you the wrong item in the first place but given they paid for postage again without any charge to you in order to ship you the correct item, I personally think its postage refund policy is reasonable.  As you said though, each to his own.

 

A very wise woman told me something when I was once affronted by something.  She said, "You're not as important as you think you are."  I've since found that to be a very helpful bit of advice in getting on in the world, day-to-day.

 

Matt

 

With due respect, if Hattons had sent the correct item in the first place then the buyer would not have needed to purchase peace of mind, as you put it. I feel that when the seller has made a mistake then the seller should pay for that mistake to rectify it. In the case of a £200 steam loco I would not send it by regular post either - I doubt many would. 

 

I say this as a very happy Hattons customer. My order from yesterday took less than 24hr by their standard postage.

Edited January 7, 2014 by sub39h

[SouthernBlue80s]

Another very happy Hattons customer too here.

Excellent customer service.

My first ever order with them was lost in the post. They re sent it no questions asked. That bought my loyalty and consquently many more of my pounds have gone their way

[Ian Abel]

Hattons have been my preferred vendor for UK outline supplies since the '80s.

They were always very efficient even when you had to phone in your orders, before the internet, and NOW they are simply brilliant.

 

The web site ordering is first class with correct US exchange rates posted as you order, removal of VAT and a selection of delivery options, all of which are always more than reasonable.

 

Simply a very satisfied customer...

[Robin Brasher]

I have used Hattons since I bought some Hornby-Dublo Pullmans from them in 1966.

[oreamnos]

Just thought I'd mention they now have a new service called the "Hattons Wishlist Service."  Perhaps others already have experience with it and if so, to them I apologize for the superfluous post here.  But others may find it useful information.

 

If you have an item on your Hattons wishlist which has been discontinued and is out of stock, should Hattons obtain stock later, they will send you a handy email like the one I received, copied below:

 

"Hello,

We thought you may be interested in a pre-owned item that we have just added to stock. The item is:
Standard Class 3MT 2-6-2 Tank 82041 BR lined green with late crest - Pre-owned - Like new

We chose to email you because your wishlist indicates that you’d like to acquire one of these items and we don’t have it available 'brand new'

You can see the item here or at:
http://www.ehattons.com/69758/Graham_Farish_372_329_LN_Standard_Class_3MT_2_6_2_Tank_82041_BR_lined_green_with_late_crest_Pre_owned_L/StockDetail.aspx

We hope this information is of interest to you.

If you would like us not to send you email notifications like these, you can change your preference on 'your wishlist' page

Regards
Pre-owned Team
Hatton's Model Railways Ltd"

 

I thought this service was a little spooky, but then again without it I wouldn't have known I could purhase this item which I had been unwilling to buy for the original new price (mid £60s if I recall) now for £50.  Which I did.  And its a lovely little engine with no faults apart from the backwards installed dome which many Farish 3MT tanks were unfortunately manufactured with but which is a very easy fix.

 

I like this service and I think I will be adding more items to my Hattons wishlist!

 

Matt

[Stevelewis]

I have used Hattons since I bought some Hornby-Dublo Pullmans from them in 1966.

I hope  that  I am  not deviating  from  the  original thread  here.  but................

 

Likewise  around  the  same  time  I  purchased  a  Hornby-Dublo  Co-Bo  and  6  Gunpowder  vans  around  the  same  time (66/67)  and  have  dealt  with  them  ever since (yet another  order  placed  today)

 

 only  wish  I  had purchased  some   of  the  Wrenn Streamlined Coronatiion class locos  when  they  were on offer at  £25.00!

[Johnfromoz]

Curiously, I find myself, (as an avid Hattons fan) writing to flag some concerns about the direction they are going in.

 

As a modeller and collector in Brisbane, every year (for the past thirty) I expend a couple of thousand pounds with this firm on my hobby (a frightening indulgence, I know).  I do this, because I find them ethical in the extreme in dealing with any issues which may arise.

 

As most are aware, Hattons have recently delved into selling pre-owned (like new) stock.  Taking a liking to a set of four boxed 3 planks with BD containers at only a modest discount to new price, I placed an order. Only one wagon arrived which, when unboxed was found to be devoid of couplers.  When contacted, Hattons were their usual courteous selves in sorting out the mistake with the missing wagons, but concerning the absence of couplings, stated that they were purchased 'as is'. Now, I  am generally fine with the 'buyer beware' principle, but when the wagons are only illustrated with one middle distance photo of four wagons in their boxes I feel that they have a duty to disclose absence of couplers in the product descriptive.  Only a minor niggle I know, as a bag of couplings are probably about a fiver, but something I feel Hattons would not perhaps have done a few years ago.....

 

The helpful retail assistance members seem to have acknowledged this, and hopefully Hattons will adjust their practices on pre-owned selling.  What do RMWeb members think?

 

John

[Gwiwer]

Known faults or damage should be disclosed when the item is offered for sale.  It would be reasonable for a retailer of model railways items to be aware that there should be couplers on both ends of a wagon.  If it were an eBay seller "selling for a friend" and including a statement that they "Know nothing about the item" I could excuse a lack of knowledge.  I once found an item listed as a "coal truck" which was in fact a locomotive tender being sold without its water-boiling companion.

 

Hattons have received mixed feedback regarding their entry into second-hand sales and the way they are listed among their brand new items.  I would expect them to take back something which has such an obvious fault as missing couplers despite being "sold as seen".  If the image used to attract a sale disguises damage or missing components then it could be considered to be misleading.

 

Quite where one draws the line on "acceptable faults" is rather arbitrary.  For example where Hattons warehouse staff should notice that a coupler is missing would they also be expected to notice a missing brake pad, handbrake wheel or lamp bracket?  

A bag of couplings may only be "about a fiver" but if I was intending to run the wagons with their existing couplers that's a fiver extra I wouldn't wish to spend.  Particularly as that then takes your second-hand purchase to above cost of the brand-new and hopefully fault-free wagons.

[Johnfromoz]

Hi Rick,

 

All good points - I suppose I have taken a more benign attitude towards this incident because of the number of times over the years that Hattons have gone above and beyond what I would expect.  I will press them for the couplings though, it seems only right as the items are not fit for purpose (i.e. running with other Bachmann stock).  

 

A more concerning factor is that on further closer (and I mean closer) examination of their images, this practice appears to be frequent in their pre-owned, boxed stock.  Using the zoom facility, one can just about make out spaces at the NEM pockets where couplings should be in several wagons across their pre-owned range. Some of these images are inconclusive because of the box sellophane and the picture angle taken. Yet nowhere are there caveats/descriptors advising that these items are without couplings.

 

 

Another factor in the Hattons growth phenomenon is that you never deal with the same person twice on a single matter. I 'm up to person 4 now and counting. I suppose that can't be helped, but sometimes you get conflicting replies. I will say that they are ALL professional and courteous in what they do.

 

John

[250BOB]

Curiously, I find myself, (as an avid Hattons fan) writing to flag some concerns about the direction they are going in.

 

As a modeller and collector in Brisbane, every year (for the past thirty) I expend a couple of thousand pounds with this firm on my hobby (a frightening indulgence, I know).  I do this, because I find them ethical in the extreme in dealing with any issues which may arise.

 

As most are aware, Hattons have recently delved into selling pre-owned (like new) stock.  Taking a liking to a set of four boxed 3 planks with BD containers at only a modest discount to new price, I placed an order. Only one wagon arrived which, when unboxed was found to be devoid of couplers.  When contacted, Hattons were their usual courteous selves in sorting out the mistake with the missing wagons, but concerning the absence of couplings, stated that they were purchased 'as is'. Now, I  am generally fine with the 'buyer beware' principle, but when the wagons are only illustrated with one middle distance photo of four wagons in their boxes I feel that they have a duty to disclose absence of couplers in the product descriptive.  Only a minor niggle I know, as a bag of couplings are probably about a fiver, but something I feel Hattons would not perhaps have done a few years ago.....

 

The helpful retail assistance members seem to have acknowledged this, and hopefully Hattons will adjust their practices on pre-owned selling.  What do RMWeb members think?

 

John

 

I'm afraid its the risk you take, in my opinion, when you buy something unseen.

 

I restrict my purchases to model shops, exhibitions and toy fairs, where I can see and examine the item before I buy.

 

Ebay and online prices may seem attractive, but can let you down.

 

I have never used Hattons to buy from online, and only very rarely had to resort to that method of purchase when left with no other option.

 

On a visit to Liverpool with friends a few weeks ago, we visited Hattons.....I'm afraid it left me cold as a model shop goes.  Lack of atmosphere that I am familiar with at other local model shops, and I hardly think you might get offered a cup of tea.   The impression I got was that it just about the sale, which is important I accept, but at the expense of any friendly small talk.

 

This is all just my opinion and impression, as I also accept that the service they offer online is second to none.

 

Bob 

 

PS......I assume you are from Oz, so you are left with few options ........ good luck.

Edited January 11, 2014 by 250BOB

[Coldgunner]

I made another order over the weekend, I've got to say, I love the fact that they tell you who did the packing. Quite a nice personal touch.

[84LA]

I responded on the day it arrived. I was told to send it back - was not told to send it back in any particular way. I wrapped it up and took it straight to the post office. I don't think most people would have seen any need to read any terms and conditions first.

Each to his own though. As I said, I thought it was an unfortunate situation and was surprised by the response.

 

I don't dispute their right to refuse but I was only guilty of going the wrong way about helping them correct their own error.

 

Bottom line was that I was unhappy and voted with my wallet.

I agree, it was Hattons error so why should the customer end up out of pocket as well as the extra time delay on the correct item arriving. I too would have thought that recorded delivery protected not just yourself in this instance but Hattons too, after all if you sent it unrecorded and it didn't arrive, would they believe that you had actually posted it in the first place ??

[SGJ]

I agree, it was Hattons error so why should the customer end up out of pocket as well as the extra time delay on the correct item arriving. I too would have thought that recorded delivery protected not just yourself in this instance but Hattons too, after all if you sent it unrecorded and it didn't arrive, would they believe that you had actually posted it in the first place ??

If you have a receipt from the post office is that not proof that you have sent the item ?

[84LA]

If you have a receipt from the post office is that not proof that you have sent the item ?

it is if it has the postcode of the receiver on it I guess but recorded is surely the best option all round ?

[darren01]

HI 

just been looking at there site and was a bit shocked to some pre-owned wagon going for more than new ones?!

I can not understand if it's second had it should normally be a little bit cheaper than say a new one am i missing something here?.

Darren

[Gwiwer]

HI 

just been looking at there site and was a bit shocked to some pre-owned wagon going for more than new ones?!

I can not understand if it's second had it should normally be a little bit cheaper than say a new one am i missing something here?.

Darren

 

All that you're missing is the previous discussion over Hattons doing this.  They're in business.  They are trying to get as much out of everyone as they can wrapped up in a bargain-like environment.  If they think they can sell these at more than the price of a new one - well they might be right as some people are buying them.  

 

Buyer beware as always.  

Edited January 29, 2014 by Gwiwer

[Robin Brasher]

Known faults or damage should be disclosed when the item is offered for sale.  It would be reasonable for a retailer of model railways items to be aware that there should be couplers on both ends of a wagon.  If it were an eBay seller "selling for a friend" and including a statement that they "Know nothing about the item" I could excuse a lack of knowledge.  I once found an item listed as a "coal truck" which was in fact a locomotive tender being sold without its water-boiling companion.

 

Hattons have received mixed feedback regarding their entry into second-hand sales and the way they are listed among their brand new items.  I would expect them to take back something which has such an obvious fault as missing couplers despite being "sold as seen".  If the image used to attract a sale disguises damage or missing components then it could be considered to be misleading.

 

Quite where one draws the line on "acceptable faults" is rather arbitrary.  For example where Hattons warehouse staff should notice that a coupler is missing would they also be expected to notice a missing brake pad, handbrake wheel or lamp bracket?  

 

A bag of couplings may only be "about a fiver" but if I was intending to run the wagons with their existing couplers that's a fiver extra I wouldn't wish to spend.  Particularly as that then takes your second-hand purchase to above cost of the brand-new and hopefully fault-free wagons.

I bought a second hand Hornby-Dublo LMR 6 wheel parcels van from the Cheltenham Model Centre. I chose a good looking one without couplings instead of a faded one with couplings. I have been unable to replace the couplings as they were to a unique design and I have tried fixing some Hornby coupling with superglue with limited success. If you are buying online the vendor ought to disclose a fault like a missing coupling as the model must be fit for purpose. I think you need to draw the line at something which affects the running. I got caught out on a second hand store as well when I bought a Wrenn Sir Nigel Gresley. I did not notice that someone had fitted scale wheels on the front bogie so it will not go round 17.5" curves and points. It is very easy to get caught out buying second hand items.

[NINJA]

No problem with deliveries from Hattons via Yodel, however Royal Mail when you are not in and you get a tried t o deliver note though the door, you try to get through to Royal Mail through their automated call system, no human interface and finally just an automated voice telling you it can be redelivered in 48 hours.

 

Before the sell off you could speak to your local sorting ofice and have it redelivered next day.

 

So lets not say Royal Mail is wonderful.