Wright writes.....

[St Enodoc]

I wouldn't expect anything but honesty and frankness..........................

 

Otherwise, what's the point of discussions, here, or anywhere?

 

Hornby A4 Sparrow Hawk R2721.jpg

 

original Hornby.

 

Hornby Sparrow Hawk weathered.jpg

 

Markits' replacements.

 

A4 60023 small.jpg

 

The real thing.........

 

The striking light has given an impression of the wheel rims being polished, which they're not; the loco is just ex-works. 

 

The big differences between the two model wheels, and there's more than enough difference to me, is the shape of the spokes, the size of the flange and the width of the tread; the Markits ones being far more realistic. Of course, neither are really realistic (is that tautology?). To do that, you'd have to adopt P4!

Tony, I do understand your point and in Gauge 3 (which is about how big those images look on my screen) the difference might be clear, but for 00, side-on, at normal viewing distances, I wouldn't bother personally.

[grahame]

Tony, I do understand your point and in Gauge 3 (which is about how big those images look on my screen) the difference might be clear, but for 00, side-on, at normal viewing distances, I wouldn't bother personally.

I do dislike that 'normal viewing distance' phrase. It's often used as an excuse and just how far is that distance? It varies significantly; models are small and light and can be held in the hand to inspect and appreciate, or it might be several feet away on the other side of a layout.

 

Actually I was puzzled at first over what the difference was, but Tony's pics have cleared it up and I can now see it. The top edge of the spokes should curve, concave, from the hub to the rim but the Hornby ones don't. Once you realise the difference, it's obvious and noticeable.

 

G

[t-b-g]

What stands out to me is that the real wheel doesn't have a big contrast in the colour of the flange and tread, compared to the rest of the wheel.

 

A coat of chemical blackening on the wheel treads would improve the appearance of the replacement wheels as it can make nickel silver look like steel if you polish it well. It also hides the over scale nature of the flange.

[Tony Wright]

Tony, I do understand your point and in Gauge 3 (which is about how big those images look on my screen) the difference might be clear, but for 00, side-on, at normal viewing distances, I wouldn't bother personally.

Point taken, John,

 

However, when I take more front-on pictures (in perspective), the difference is quite noticeable. 

 

 

This is the Hornby A3 60049 (which featured earlier), after I'd modified/detailed/weathered it (including new bogie wheels). I notice the difference, but that's me. This loco has since been sold.

 

 

The problem with inaccurate bogie wheels gets worse in my view with the current RTR B1s. Neither, to my eyes, are right. 

 

 

In fairness, this is an older Bachmann B1 which Geoff West has improved/weathered. I'd still change the bogie wheels, though.

 

 

When I wrote the review for the first of Hornby's B1s, I commented on how the bogie wheels didn't capture the 'look' of the real things. Though LNER bogie wheels tended to have a large centre boss, were any as large as these? 

 

 

I honestly think that they're worth changing. It makes the loco look far more realistic in my view. I've taken this one a bit further, to be fair; changing the chimney, detailing it and changing its identity. Tom Foster then weathered it for me. 

 

What shouldn't be forgotten is how generally good the featured RTR locos are, but, they can be improved with relative ease. I think it's worth it. 

 

I fully-understand, from a distance, can one tell? And, if matching paint finishes is difficult or the originals don't derail on less-than-perfect track, then, by all means, stick with them. To me, though, RTR bogie wheels are just too chunky; so, I replace them. 

 

Rummaging through pictures to find the ones above, I'd forgotten that I'd taken a picture of Hornby's P2 on Little Bytham.............

 

 

 

There were certainly no problems with haulage-ability with this loco!

 

Edited to include a picture of some real B1 wheels; my apologies for not including them. 

 

 

I think it's the distinctive shape of the spokes which is most important to me, not captured at all by the RTR bogie wheels.  

 

And, don't bother to file that flash-line off your cast buffers!

 

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Herbert Nigel]

Tony,

I can't personally verify this but am basing it on the information given in "Mile by mile" by S.N. Pike MBE (allegedly with input from railway staff) which states Stoke summit to be 345 feet above sea level and the highest point between London and York. The "highest point on main line" is given as being the summit half a mile south of Penmanshiel tunnel at a height of 400 feet above sea level.

[PMP]

 

RM Little Bytham 25.jpg

 

I honestly think that they're worth changing. It makes the loco look far more realistic in my view. I've taken this one a bit further, to be fair; changing the chimney, detailing it and changing its identity. Tom Foster then weathered it for me. 

 

 

I use a lot of RTR in terms of motive power, the types I use are good representations of the prototypes but as you say Tony, pretty much all of them can be improved with a relatively little effort.

 

 

Here's an earlier makeover. Hornby 52xx with Brassmasters kit. Also the pony truck wheels are replaced, they're wrong though, the centre boss is too small and not the right shape , but the appearance is 'better' even if incorrect over the chunky original wheels. Also changed is the Chimney, an Alan Gibson replacement, buffers (also AG) number and smokebox dart, and the bunker opened up to reflect a nearly empty bunker, the makeover based on a 50's image at Severn Tunnel Jct  Then an overall light weathering. The cab shutters have been opened up to allow daylight into the cab. I rarely crew my engines, and when I do they are always in a static pose. For me engine shed scenes with every single engine with a full action posed crew really stand out as looking odd. None of the mods are particularly difficult or time consuming but it does make a big difference to the appearance. Running is ok but a bit light footed, next time its apart I'll likely replace the Hornby weights with depleted uranium.

Edited February 9, 2018 by PMP

[TrevorP1]

Tony, whilst agreeing with your comments about the RTR bogie wheel spokes, the thing that strikes my wonky eyes the most is that if the RTR ones were real the tyres would all be down to scrapping size. Now I'll never be satisfied!

 

I've not long retired (perhaps I should say 'given up paid work'?) and as it will be some months before my new railway den is built I will add bogie and pony wheel changes to the job list.

[glo41f]

"There was a WM kit IIRC, although I've no idea of manufacturer."

 

I remember this. It was in a box with green stripes as part of the package. (Was it Millholme?) . I purchased one but sold it on to a proper GN enthusiast. There were certainly quite a fes kits around in the 70's though sadly not many for us Eastern types.  Who remembers the Bristol Models kits of mostly GW and LMS types? I had a WD from that source which was designed to go on a Jouef 1-4-1 chassis. It never got finished as my friend , an avid SNCF modeller, wanted the proposed donor 1-4-1.

 

I once went to the Millholme models premises which were in an old school and were quite extensive. They had layouts in the retail area which were run from time to time.They were  proposing a range of Eastern models which were to be built in the far East like the ones that Eames had done with the brass King. I think there was one produced  and I cannot remember what it was but a pacific springs to mind (A3?) but I was interested in the second model which was to be a J39. Sadly it never happened. At the time we were all rather envious of the USA brass models which seemed relatively cheap for the quality though I have subsequently learnt that the models were often very poor runners and need work to make them go properly. They did look lovely in their shiny gold paint jobs though. Millholme had a display cabinet with a number of these.

 

Martin Long

 

 

[Denbridge]

Lovely John.

I doubt it's a LRM kit as the D2 is a recent addition.

 

There was a WM kit IIRC, although I've no idea of manufacturer.

I have a recollection of building a D2 for a dear friend, now sadly deceased. I.m pretty certain it was a nu-cast kit, but the grey matter isn't what it used to be.

[jwealleans]

Did WSM do a D2? NuCast certainly did (and perhaps still do, or plan to).

[The Fatadder]

Hi Tony

 

I’m hoping I might pick your brains for some pickup advice please,

 

I have just finished building a PDK kit for a 47xx that I obtained from eBay part built. The main work that had already been finished was the chassis frames. However they have been assembled differently to the instructions, and the horizontal spacers are at the extreme ends (with verticals spacers along the length.

 

I have just sat down to add pickups to one side (with the other being live to the chassis). The approach I used on my County build was a couple of pads glued to horizontal spacers, from which I soldered the pickup wire. However that’s not possible here given the lack of anything to glue to. As the chassis is now painted the obvious soloution of soldering on an extra spacer is not really something I want to be doing

 

I was hoping there might be some alternative soloutions that might help me get it up and running

 

This thread has served as the inspiration to build this loco rather than buying a Heljan one, it has certainly proved a lot more enjoyable than just opening a box

 

Thanks in advance

Rich

[jamie92208]

Hi Tony

 

I’m hoping I might pick your brains for some pickup advice please,

 

I have just finished building a PDK kit for a 47xx that I obtained from eBay part built. The main work that had already been finished was the chassis frames. However they have been assembled differently to the instructions, and the horizontal spacers are at the extreme ends (with verticals spacers along the length.

 

I have just sat down to add pickups to one side (with the other being live to the chassis). The approach I used on my County build was a couple of pads glued to horizontal spacers, from which I soldered the pickup wire. However that’s not possible here given the lack of anything to glue to. As the chassis is now painted the obvious soloution of soldering on an extra spacer is not really something I want to be doing

9F99D963-6EC7-466A-8A8D-38986BB2FC35.jpeg

 

I was hoping there might be some alternative soloutions that might help me get it up and running

 

This thread has served as the inspiration to build this loco rather than buying a Heljan one, it has certainly proved a lot more enjoyable than just opening a box

20D66D2C-D2CA-4C4B-B2A1-62376BD9EF4E.jpeg

 

Thanks in advance

Rich

 

You could perhaps araldite a couple of pieces of PCB across the base of the frames and solder your pick up strips onto them.

 

Jamie

[Barry Ten]

In cases similar to that chassis, I've fixed rectangles of thick plastic card between the frames, making them virtually a push fit and then lightly gluing them in position. PCB etc can then be fixed onto the plastic as per a normal frame spacer.

 

Al

[t-b-g]

I have done a set of pick ups today using a length of PCB sleeper, glued to the inside of one of the frames along the top edge and running front to back rather than side to side. The pick ups then go up and over the frame onto the backs of the wheel at the top.

 

It might work on your loco and was nice and easy.

[Chuffer Davies]

Hi Tony

 

I’m hoping I might pick your brains for some pickup advice please,

 

I have just finished building a PDK kit for a 47xx that I obtained from eBay part built. The main work that had already been finished was the chassis frames. However they have been assembled differently to the instructions, and the horizontal spacers are at the extreme ends (with verticals spacers along the length.

 

I have just sat down to add pickups to one side (with the other being live to the chassis). The approach I used on my County build was a couple of pads glued to horizontal spacers, from which I soldered the pickup wire. However that’s not possible here given the lack of anything to glue to. As the chassis is now painted the obvious soloution of soldering on an extra spacer is not really something I want to be doing

9F99D963-6EC7-466A-8A8D-38986BB2FC35.jpeg

 

I was hoping there might be some alternative soloutions that might help me get it up and running

 

This thread has served as the inspiration to build this loco rather than buying a Heljan one, it has certainly proved a lot more enjoyable than just opening a box

20D66D2C-D2CA-4C4B-B2A1-62376BD9EF4E.jpeg

 

Thanks in advance

Rich

 

Hi Rich,

Given that you are half way there already why not be adventurous and try the American system?  You will need to isolate the tender chassis from its body using some insulation tape and some plastic bushes for the  bolts that hold the body onto the chassis.  Then all you need to do is short out the wheels on the other side of the tender to those uninsulated wheels on the loco and run a wire from the tender's chassis to the motor.  When you see the result you may never fit a pickup on a tender engine again.  When I build my models I use the drawbar to carry the current from the tender to the loco which means the tender doesn't need to be permanently coupled to the loco, but I'm guessing you are too far down the build to do this on this model. 

Best of luck,

Frank

[The Fatadder]

Thanks for the advice, the children are at a friends birthday party this afternoon so I should get a chance to put it into practice

 

Rich

[CF MRC]

Point taken, John,

 

However, when I take more front-on pictures (in perspective), the difference is quite noticeable. 

 

A3 on empty stock - parcels.jpg

 

This is the Hornby A3 60049 (which featured earlier), after I'd modified/detailed/weathered it (including new bogie wheels). I notice the difference, but that's me. This loco has since been sold.

 

Hornby B1 and Bachmann B1.jpg

 

The problem with inaccurate bogie wheels gets worse in my view with the current RTR B1s. Neither, to my eyes, are right. 

 

Geoff West B1.jpg

 

In fairness, this is an older Bachmann B1 which Geoff West has improved/weathered. I'd still change the bogie wheels, though.

 

Hornby B1 R2998 01.jpg

 

When I wrote the review for the first of Hornby's B1s, I commented on how the bogie wheels didn't capture the 'look' of the real things. Though LNER bogie wheels tended to have a large centre boss, were any as large as these? 

 

RM Little Bytham 25.jpg

 

I honestly think that they're worth changing. It makes the loco look far more realistic in my view. I've taken this one a bit further, to be fair; changing the chimney, detailing it and changing its identity. Tom Foster then weathered it for me. 

 

What shouldn't be forgotten is how generally good the featured RTR locos are, but, they can be improved with relative ease. I think it's worth it. 

 

I fully-understand, from a distance, can one tell? And, if matching paint finishes is difficult or the originals don't derail on less-than-perfect track, then, by all means, stick with them. To me, though, RTR bogie wheels are just too chunky; so, I replace them. 

 

Rummaging through pictures to find the ones above, I'd forgotten that I'd taken a picture of Hornby's P2 on Little Bytham.............

 

Cock O' The North 01.jpg

 

Cock O' The North 02.jpg

 

There were certainly no problems with haulage-ability with this loco!

 

Edited to include a picture of some real B1 wheels; my apologies for not including them. 

 

B1 61183 small.jpg

 

I think it's the distinctive shape of the spokes which is most important to me, not captured at all by the RTR bogie wheels.  

 

And, don't bother to file that flash-line off your cast buffers!

Fully agree regarding pony/bogie wheels Tony. They are almost as much the ‘face’ of an engine as the smoke box door. They are, in some ways, more obvious than the driving wheels.

 

As an example, many eons ago, we ran a well endowed Minitrix A4 on CF. In those days we could run a mixture of wheel standards and so the bogie wheels were finescale and the drivers still the desperately crude N gauge originals. Admittedly, it had valences so the drivers were hidden to some extent, but the bogie wheels gave it the correct appearance - so long as you didn’t look too close.

 

Nowadays, Farish manage to make a pigs ear of most of their bogie wheels on their otherwise exquisite, but gutless models (at least in CF terms).

 

Tim

[St Enodoc]

I do dislike that 'normal viewing distance' phrase. It's often used as an excuse and just how far is that distance? It varies significantly; models are small and light and can be held in the hand to inspect and appreciate, or it might be several feet away on the other side of a layout.

 

Actually I was puzzled at first over what the difference was, but Tony's pics have cleared it up and I can now see it. The top edge of the spokes should curve, concave, from the hub to the rim but the Hornby ones don't. Once you realise the difference, it's obvious and noticeable.

 

G

For me, as all my locos are what Tony calls "layout locos" normal viewing distance is a minimum of about two feet, which is as close as my eyes get to a loco running on the layout in normal operation. I do agree that you can get a lot closer to a model than that of course.

[Barry Ten]

This is a layout model if ever there was one, as my lining doesn't stand up to close scrutiny, but it's good enough as part of an overall scene, I hope and won't look terribly out of place next to other vehicles. It's a Branchlines kit for an LB&SCR perishables van. There are still a few more jobs to be done with it.

 

 

This was my first go at using a Bob Moore lining pen, which I picked up at the recent Bristol 7mm exhibition. I'm finding it a bit easier than a bow-pen, or at least a bit more consistent, although the viscosity of the paint is still very critical - too thick and it clogs, too thin and it spreads out.

 

Al

[glo41f]

Hi Al

 

Nice work.

 

The Bob Moore pens are a boon if you get them to work!  Bob told me to use neat Humbrol with a drop of lighter fuel in the cup. However with the recent change of production and consistency with Humbrol paints this does not always produce what you want. Does anyone out there use paints other than Humbrol successfully in the pen?  If so please tell us.( I have also found a steady hand is helpful - not a task to be undertaken when 3 glasses of Shiraz have been consumed!)

 

Martin Long

[Barry Ten]

Hi Martin

 

The paint I used here was some Revell gloss yellow, but let down with a few drops of lighter fluid as you mention. It wasn't a fresh tin so I thought I'd try some brand new Humbrol gloss yellow next time. I just have to finish something that needs lining first.

 

Al

[Daddyman]

Hi Martin

 

The paint I used here was some Revell gloss yellow, but let down with a few drops of lighter fluid as you mention. It wasn't a fresh tin so I thought I'd try some brand new Humbrol gloss yellow next time. I just have to finish something that needs lining first.

 

Al

Did you line on gloss (as well as with gloss)? 

[mullie]

As most people on this thread seem to use enamels i thought I would post my latest efforts. I can't tolerate the fumes from oil based paints so moved over to using acrylics around 15 years ago. Living in deepest Dorset and with the new postal rules I've got used to using what I can get easily locally. Therefore the weathering below was done with artists acrylics, chalks, charcoal, inks and talc. The model is a Hornby class 121, an early attempt at converting a model to EM, in this case I have simply used the existing wheels though they will be replaced when I can get something suitable.

 

 

I did contemplate replacing all this underfloor gubbins but as it is part of the chassis I decided not to. This loco will not be the mainstay of passenger services on my new layout, I would like to build some Radley models underground kits for that.

 

Hope it is of interest.

 

Martyn

[Barry Ten]

Did you line on gloss (as well as with gloss)? 

 

No, it was quite a flat finish initially but I might try a gloss body colour next time.

[Barry O]

American style pick I up systems are ok for dc but an absolute pain in dcc. It can also show some interesting shorts on logos going through sharper radius or uneven curves.

 

I use phosphour bronze wire for pick ups on as many wheels as I can. It does help with loco running.

 

Baz