Wright writes.....

[CF MRC]

Maybe slightly browner stools....?

 

Tim

Edited April 5, 2019 by CF MRC

[MikeTrice]

12 minutes ago, CF MRC said:

Maybe slightly browner stools....?

 

Tim

There is really no answer to that ;-)

[Porcy Mane]

1 hour ago, MikeTrice said:

There is really no answer to that ;-)

 

 

There is when you are taking part in the bowel screening programme.   

[chris p bacon]

3 hours ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

 

There is when you are taking part in the bowel screening programme.   

 

Been there....best thing I've seen on telly for years.

[Tony Wright]

Returning to point rodding (and it does sit on stools!), one thing I'm pleased about is that in the prototype pictures I posted yesterday, it's just about impossible to see exactly how the cranks are arranged. Which means (I hope) it's impossible to tell if I've got them right (or, more importantly, wrong) on the model. 

 

What's also evident is that once a rod leaves the main run, it's usually made of smaller, round stock and sits on much-lower stools (to go under the rails, presumably?). I don't think I've got that quite 'right' because I used similar-sized plastic rod. Actually, smaller diameter plastic rod would probably have been too flexible, refusing to lie straight. An acceptable compromise?  

 

I'm more and more convinced that items such as point rodding on a model railway are there to almost 'trick' the eye into believing it's 'right'. As I've said earlier, without an inch of it on LB, I was blissfully unaware of its omission. However, once runs were put together and fixed in place, the gaps between them 'shout out' to be filled. I've probably got about 15' more to make! 

 

Thanks for all the comments, and the info' on Jenkins of Retford as well. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Tony Wright
to clarify a point

[MPR]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Returning to point rodding (and it does sit on stools!), one thing I'm pleased about is that in the prototype pictures I posted yesterday, it's just about impossible to see exactly how the cranks are arranged. Which means (I hope) it's impossible to tell if I've got them right (or, more importantly, wrong) on the model. 

 

Hi Tony

I’m so glad to hear someone else say this!

I’ve just spent a week trying to puzzle out the rodding runs for Torre to no great effect, despite good photographic coverage of 90% of the area modelled. 

I am certain that next time I visit a mechanically signalled preserved railway I will be mostly looking down, not up!

More than ever, I am convinced that modelling is less dependent on technical skill than it is on developing an ability to really see what is in front of you in reality or in a photograph. 

 

With just eight feet of plank to populate, I chose the Modelu 3D printed parts, which certainly looked impressive and assembled cleanly.

The photograph below shows a short trial sample - once it was in place, I knew that I would have to complete the whole installation.

The concrete bases are not yet made or fitted, these will be styrene section rather than the parts Modelu offer.  They are mostly buried, so I do not expect this simplification will be visible.

I have now committed to a plan, placed an order for the remainder of the parts and will busy myself singeing my fingers on Brassmasters angle cranks until they arrive! 

Best Wishes and thanks for the inspiration!

Martin

Edited April 6, 2019 by MPR

[Tony Wright]

33 minutes ago, MPR said:

 

Hi Tony

I’m so glad to hear someone else say this!

I’ve just spent a week trying to puzzle out the rodding runs for Torre to no great effect, despite good photographic coverage of 90% of the area modelled. 

I am certain that next time I visit a mechanically signalled preserved railway I will be mostly looking down, not up!

More than ever, I am convinced that modelling is less dependent on technical skill than it is on developing an ability to really see what is in front of you in reality or in a photograph. 

 

With just eight feet of plank to populate, I chose the Modelu 3D printed parts, which certainly looked impressive and assembled cleanly.

The photograph below shows a short trial sample - once it was in place, I knew that I would have to complete the whole installation.

The concrete bases are not yet made or fitted, these will be styrene section rather than the parts Modelu offer.  They are mostly buried, so I do not expect this simplification will be visible.

I have now committed to a plan, placed an order for the remainder of the parts and will busy myself singeing my fingers on Brassmasters angle cranks until they arrive! 

Best Wishes and thanks for the inspiration!

Martin

Thanks Martin,

 

Those ModelU items certainly look the part. If anything they're finer than the all-metal components I use, though it's the overall effect which will be the final arbiter. 

 

I photographed some real rodding at Quorn three or so years ago, and it was of use, though the installation was nothing like as complex as at Little Bytham. 

 

Having helped (in a small way) with the layouts Peterborough North and Grantham, if ever the decision to install the point rodding on those is made, it's going to take a lot of work! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[uax6]

The u-channel Roding is galvanised, so will be a grey colour, the rollers are also galvanised, so will also be grey. The stools are the concrete or timbers that are sunk into the ground for the rollers to sit on, so the most you should see of them is the top surface.

 

Our gate lock rods (the only rods left) are channel throughout, but the run has droppers and cranks in where it goes under the track and then runs to the gates. I think there are photos of it in my gallery....

 

Edit: There is, but I have no-idea how to get a link to appear here, so click on my avatar and then go to albums, and you will see it.

 

andy g

Edited April 6, 2019 by uax6

[Chamby]

25 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Having helped (in a small way) with the layouts Peterborough North and Grantham, if ever the decision to install the point rodding on those is made, it's going to take a lot of work! 

 

....or Carlisle!

 

The discussion about point rodding does highlight the balancing act between size, level of detail, and time commitment for the average modeller.

 

Phil

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

I'm more and more convinced that items such as point rodding on a model railway are there to almost 'trick' the eye into believing it's 'right'. As I've said earlier, without an inch of it on LB, I was blissfully unaware of its omission. However, once runs were put together and fixed in place, the gaps between them 'shout out' to be filled. I've probably got about 15' more to make! 

 

I would agree with that.  I had point rodding on Long Preston and in 7mm was able to follow the prototype practice in placing things like compensators.  I also had a long run of 5 rods along the cess by the down platform.   That was impossible for the public to see.   I was however 2encouraged by my co conspirators to put it in as they had to look at it when operating.   I was glad that I did because it shoed up in the photos that you took with the camera in the goods yard looking through the road bridge.

 

As to tricking the eye.   I had telegraph wires as well and the poles had insulators for 40 of them.   For various reasons I only ever got 33 installed but no one ever noticed that there were some missing.  I got comments about other things but never about the empty insulators. I suspect that once I'd got 25 or so done people just saw loads of wires.  In the same way no one ever noticed that the Midland Fruit van had been built with the bodysides upside down.

 

Jamie

[micknich2003]

Here are a few typical pictures.

Edited April 6, 2019 by micknich2003

[Tony Wright]

15 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

....or Carlisle!

 

The discussion about point rodding does highlight the balancing act between size, level of detail, and time commitment for the average modeller.

 

Phil

Carlisle indeed, Phil,

 

Whoever does the rodding for that is in for a huge undertaking. 

 

I don't have prototype pictures of that, but I do of Peterborough North and Grantham (the two other layouts mentioned). Part of Grantham's rodding was illustrated yesterday. 

 

Anyone up for doing the rodding on Peterborough North? 

 

 

There's only a small amount of rodding visible here, but it increases in leaps and bounds towards the station. 

 

A friend was considering modelling all of this to scale (he just about has the space), with everything built for him (apart from the baseboards, which he'd build). He then discovered he wasn't a billionaire! 

[Tony Wright]

2 minutes ago, micknich2003 said:

Here are a few typical pictures.

Thanks Mick,

 

Definitely light grey for the rodding...........

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[micknich2003]

Here's one of a "Lead Off".

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Returning to point rodding (and it does sit on stools!), one thing I'm pleased about is that in the prototype pictures I posted yesterday, it's just about impossible to see exactly how the cranks are arranged. Which means (I hope) it's impossible to tell if I've got them right (or, more importantly, wrong) on the model. 

 

What's also evident is that once a rod leaves the main run, it's usually made of smaller, round stock and sits on much-lower stools (to go under the rails, presumably?). I don't think I've got that quite 'right' because I used similar-sized plastic rod. Actually, smaller diameter plastic rod would probably have been too flexible, refusing to lie straight. An acceptable compromise?  

 

I'm more and more convinced that items such as point rodding on a model railway are there to almost 'trick' the eye into believing it's 'right'. As I've said earlier, without an inch of it on LB, I was blissfully unaware of its omission. However, once runs were put together and fixed in place, the gaps between them 'shout out' to be filled. I've probably got about 15' more to make! 

 

Thanks for all the comments, and the info' on Jenkins of Retford as well. 

So first the naming of the parts (which modellers seem to invariably get wrong in one important area -

 

1. Point rodding runs in roller assemblies, (known by various other names such as rodding rollers or point rodding rollers etc) and these are cast metal incorporating a roller on which the rod rests and moves.  Modern ones are galvanised but older ones generally appear rusted. In later years they came basically in two styles - 'standard' and GWR/WR and the difference between the two is visible in 4mm scale if you're that pedantic.  The Modelu rollers are very obviously GWR/WR pattern.

2, The rollers are held in place by being bolted onto stools - most commonly made of wood or concrete with concrete being the predominant material in later years, say late 1930s onwards for some companies, universally so for new work in BR times. 

3. As we've already come across in this thread rodding come sin various forms - originally pipe was used for round rodding but most latterday round rodding is solid although runs using pipe could still be found on some BR regions in the 1960s. the round rodding is untreated metal so it rusts.  Channel rodding is a rectangular U shape and comes in two forms - 'standard' and GWR/WR (obviously) with the latter being a slightly different section, a little wider.

4. Cranks come(came) in a variety of shapes and sizes, e.g stepped cranks of different heights for use in congested leading-off beds where the rods emerge from the signal bx and need to turn, via a crank, into the rodding run.  Cranks are - in the best circles - mounted on steel plates which are held in position by 'beds'.  The Western had some very nice concrete castings for this purpose and they can still be seen in gardens around Reading (the home of the GWR/WR Signal Works)

5. Pin joints are used with channel rodding to link the U shape channel to the crank so are shaped at one end to fit inside the channel and at the other end have a jaw to link to the crank with a steel pin.

 

Little Bytham - judging by photos - had channel rodding for the runs by the time Tony is modelling with the rollers mounted on concrete stools.  Transverse rods look to have been round rodding.

 

Modelling a rodding run really depends on the depth of detail you wish to pursue. A few years back I planned the rodding for a 2mm scale layout in considerable detail and the modeller concerned subsequently built it as per plans.  In the real world there's some maths and science involved but u it really boils down to a very simple principle - in any length of rodding between the signal box and whatever that rod works the amount of push should equal the amount of pull.  The reversal between pull and push is achieved in two ways - at its simplest it is done by setting cranks in such a way that they reverse it (assuming the length of run and its route make that possible) but of course you have to make sure the crank at the dribving end of a point or facing point lock (FPL) is going to transmit the motion in the correct direction.  The other way of reversing the direction of the motion is to use a compensator crank and these are inevitable in a longer run - even between two ends of a crossover as many photos show.  In a model with non-working rodding there's not really any need to get all these things exact of course but ideally - if you want such detail - to try to give the overall impression.

 

Now weathering.  Rodding run rollers are self lubricating (the lubricant is called rain) and must never be oiled or greased as that attracts dirt and causes wear.  Crank bosses - depending on era are normally oiled or greased so many older designs had dustcaps. 

 

So I hope those few basic points (sorry) will help those heading for this sort of detail.  i have a number of prototype pictures available which were taken specifically to illustrate some of the things I've mentioned above if anyone is interested.

[Bucoops]

7 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

So first the naming of the parts (which modellers seem to invariably get wrong in one important area -

 

1. Point rodding runs in roller assemblies, (known by various other names such as rodding rollers or point rodding rollers etc) and these are cast metal incorporating a roller on which the rod rests and moves.  Modern ones are galvanised but older ones generally appear rusted. In later years they came basically in two styles - 'standard' and GWR/WR and the difference between the two is visible in 4mm scale if you're that pedantic.  The Modelu rollers are very obviously GWR/WR pattern.

2, The rollers are held in place by being bolted onto stools - most commonly made of wood or concrete with concrete being the predominant material in later years, say late 1930s onwards for some companies, universally so for new work in BR times. 

3. As we've already come across in this thread rodding come sin various forms - originally pipe was used for round rodding but most latterday round rodding is solid although runs using pipe could still be found on some BR regions in the 1960s. the round rodding is untreated metal so it rusts.  Channel rodding is a rectangular U shape and comes in two forms - 'standard' and GWR/WR (obviously) with the latter being a slightly different section, a little wider.

4. Cranks come(came) in a variety of shapes and sizes, e.g stepped cranks of different heights for use in congested leading-off beds where the rods emerge from the signal bx and need to turn, via a crank, into the rodding run.  Cranks are - in the best circles - mounted on steel plates which are held in position by 'beds'.  The Western had some very nice concrete castings for this purpose and they can still be seen in gardens around Reading (the home of the GWR/WR Signal Works)

5. Pin joints are used with channel rodding to link the U shape channel to the crank so are shaped at one end to fit inside the channel and at the other end have a jaw to link to the crank with a steel pin.

 

Little Bytham - judging by photos - had channel rodding for the runs by the time Tony is modelling with the rollers mounted on concrete stools.  Transverse rods look to have been round rodding.

 

Modelling a rodding run really depends on the depth of detail you wish to pursue. A few years back I planned the rodding for a 2mm scale layout in considerable detail and the modeller concerned subsequently built it as per plans.  In the real world there's some maths and science involved but u it really boils down to a very simple principle - in any length of rodding between the signal box and whatever that rod works the amount of push should equal the amount of pull.  The reversal between pull and push is achieved in two ways - at its simplest it is done by setting cranks in such a way that they reverse it (assuming the length of run and its route make that possible) but of course you have to make sure the crank at the dribving end of a point or facing point lock (FPL) is going to transmit the motion in the correct direction.  The other way of reversing the direction of the motion is to use a compensator crank and these are inevitable in a longer run - even between two ends of a crossover as many photos show.  In a model with non-working rodding there's not really any need to get all these things exact of course but ideally - if you want such detail - to try to give the overall impression.

 

Now weathering.  Rodding run rollers are self lubricating (the lubricant is called rain) and must never be oiled or greased as that attracts dirt and causes wear.  Crank bosses - depending on era are normally oiled or greased so many older designs had dustcaps. 

 

So I hope those few basic points (sorry) will help those heading for this sort of detail.  i have a number of prototype pictures available which were taken specifically to illustrate some of the things I've mentioned above if anyone is interested.

 

 

Hi MIke, I and I'm sure many others would be very interested - most fascinating

[ArthurK]

Anyone fancy a challenge? Blackpool North.

 

ArthurK

 

[Michael Delamar]

As it’s Grand National day. Recreating the race day specials to Aintree of the early 60s on that one day of the year when lots of exotic locos would visit Aintree and Walton sheds to be serviced after working in their specials. The thoroughbreds are on the ash pit road at Walton.

Tony id like you to come and photograph Walton when it is finished.

One of my next jobs is point rodding.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80129-walton-on-the-hill-27e-liverpool-em-gauge/page/23/

 

 

 

 

[Michael Delamar]

I cut the tops of the Modelu bases off and stuck them down before the ballasting as you only see the top but could just have easily used some thin plasticard. 

Once all this painting work is done the delicate parts will be glued to the bases.

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Michael Delamar

[KNP]

Point rodding can really transform the appearance of a layout as can be seen looking at before/after pictures of LB.

It certainly did on my layout and mine was retrospectively fitted as well, but I took the simpler route and used Wills.

For what it's worth here is how I painted mine, sounds complicated but wasn't really but then I didn't have the quantity you have!!!

 

A base colour of Lifecolor Roof Dirt

Vallejo Medium Grey various number of wash coats (and not to particular in wash density) to get variation

Lifecolor Weathered Black for rollers, cranks, arms, pulleys .

Vallejo Oil & Grease dabbed on around moving joints to give a tonal variation.

 

A quick picture to give an idea of what I'm on about.

 

 

Hope it provides some 'food for thought'...?

 

 

[Chamby]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

So first the naming of the parts (which modellers seem to invariably get wrong in one important area -

 

1. Point rodding runs in roller assemblies, (known by various other names such as rodding rollers or point rodding rollers etc) and these are cast metal incorporating a roller on which the rod rests and moves.  Modern ones are galvanised but older ones generally appear rusted. In later years they came basically in two styles - 'standard' and GWR/WR and the difference between the two is visible in 4mm scale if you're that pedantic.  The Modelu rollers are very obviously GWR/WR pattern.

2, The rollers are held in place by being bolted onto stools - most commonly made of wood or concrete with concrete being the predominant material in later years, say late 1930s onwards for some companies, universally so for new work in BR times. 

3. As we've already come across in this thread rodding come sin various forms - originally pipe was used for round rodding but most latterday round rodding is solid although runs using pipe could still be found on some BR regions in the 1960s. the round rodding is untreated metal so it rusts.  Channel rodding is a rectangular U shape and comes in two forms - 'standard' and GWR/WR (obviously) with the latter being a slightly different section, a little wider.

4. Cranks come(came) in a variety of shapes and sizes, e.g stepped cranks of different heights for use in congested leading-off beds where the rods emerge from the signal bx and need to turn, via a crank, into the rodding run.  Cranks are - in the best circles - mounted on steel plates which are held in position by 'beds'.  The Western had some very nice concrete castings for this purpose and they can still be seen in gardens around Reading (the home of the GWR/WR Signal Works)

5. Pin joints are used with channel rodding to link the U shape channel to the crank so are shaped at one end to fit inside the channel and at the other end have a jaw to link to the crank with a steel pin.

 

Little Bytham - judging by photos - had channel rodding for the runs by the time Tony is modelling with the rollers mounted on concrete stools.  Transverse rods look to have been round rodding.

 

Modelling a rodding run really depends on the depth of detail you wish to pursue. A few years back I planned the rodding for a 2mm scale layout in considerable detail and the modeller concerned subsequently built it as per plans.  In the real world there's some maths and science involved but u it really boils down to a very simple principle - in any length of rodding between the signal box and whatever that rod works the amount of push should equal the amount of pull.  The reversal between pull and push is achieved in two ways - at its simplest it is done by setting cranks in such a way that they reverse it (assuming the length of run and its route make that possible) but of course you have to make sure the crank at the dribving end of a point or facing point lock (FPL) is going to transmit the motion in the correct direction.  The other way of reversing the direction of the motion is to use a compensator crank and these are inevitable in a longer run - even between two ends of a crossover as many photos show.  In a model with non-working rodding there's not really any need to get all these things exact of course but ideally - if you want such detail - to try to give the overall impression.

 

Now weathering.  Rodding run rollers are self lubricating (the lubricant is called rain) and must never be oiled or greased as that attracts dirt and causes wear.  Crank bosses - depending on era are normally oiled or greased so many older designs had dustcaps. 

 

So I hope those few basic points (sorry) will help those heading for this sort of detail.  i have a number of prototype pictures available which were taken specifically to illustrate some of the things I've mentioned above if anyone is interested.

 

That is a top post, Sir!  

 

Exactly why I indulge myself in RMweb....

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Michael Delamar said:

As it’s Grand National day. Recreating the race day specials to Aintree of the early 60s on that one day of the year when lots of exotic locos would visit Aintree and Walton sheds to be serviced after working in their specials. The thoroughbreds are on the ash pit road at Walton.

Tony id like you to come and photograph Walton when it is finished.

One of my next jobs is point rodding.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80129-walton-on-the-hill-27e-liverpool-em-gauge/page/23/

 

 

 

 

Whenever you're ready, Michael,

 

I'd love to photograph it.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

13 minutes ago, KNP said:

Point rodding can really transform the appearance of a layout as can be seen looking at before/after pictures of LB.

It certainly did on my layout and mine was retrospectively fitted as well, but I took the simpler route and used Wills.

For what it's worth here is how I painted mine, sounds complicated but wasn't really but then I didn't have the quantity you have!!!

 

A base colour of Lifecolor Roof Dirt

Vallejo Medium Grey various number of wash coats (and not to particular in wash density) to get variation

Lifecolor Weathered Black for rollers, cranks, arms, pulleys .

Vallejo Oil & Grease dabbed on around moving joints to give a tonal variation.

 

A quick picture to give an idea of what I'm on about.

 

 

Hope it provides some 'food for thought'...?

 

 

That looks remarkably realistic, Kevin,

 

When I tried the Wills point rodding, I found it far too thick/big. It wouldn't go underneath SMP rail. 

 

Measuring it up, it came out nearer 7mm than 4mm, perhaps S Scale. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Many thanks for all the information and images regarding point rodding. I really have learned a lot!

 

Having put together another 15" (for the north end), I'm going to put it aside for a while. It really is one of repetitive jobs on a layout, best done in bite-sized chunks in my view.

 

I think what I've done is definitely a 'sketch book' job - an impression, really. 

 

Here are two elevated views which, I hope, show what I mean. 

 

 

 

These show the rodding in the environs of the signal box. I did try this initially with the Wills plastic rodding, but it was 'huge' for an installation as 'complicated' as this, so I abandoned it. A pity, because it would have saved a lot of model-making time. 

 

My work is really best viewed from a 'distance' such as this, where the overall impression is most important. The 'gaps' in the rodding waiting to be filled are apparent.

 

Many thanks to all posters, again. 

[timbowilts]

Tony, it may be a sketch-book impression, in your opinion, but to an ex-signalling engineer it looks superb.

 

Tim T