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4 hours ago, Iain.d said:

I’m inclined to agree!

 

But I think they make a terrific base for modifying though.  I have done heaps – the most I have forked out for a second hand one on ebay is about 5GBP, I’m not too fussed how damaged they are or what bits are missing – as long as the roofs are in a reasonable condition. I did buy some new ones at the Bristol show in about 2001 for 7GBP each.

 

Very little survives from the original. I do reuse the ends but detail them substantially. Pretty much everything else is replaced.  All the sides I've used are from Comet/Wizard. I bought myself an airbrush a few years back to assist in painting them. Despite having a good selection of quality bow / lining pens I still use HMRS transfers. I have had a dabble (and watched the videos on here by the likes on Mike Trice) but there’s still something I can’t seem to get right.  The plan, over Christmas, is to dedicate a day or two to having another go.

 

Anyway here’s a few of my modified ones - don't worry about the sticky up corridor connectors / gangways - they flatten when formed in the rake!

 

Stanier D2119 TK:

 

581922178_LMSD2119TKM2159M(1).jpg.4ba939214b084dfdb4afa1ca4af29a92.jpg

 

Stanier D2161 BSK:

 

1214917092_LMSD2161BSKSc27050M(1).jpg.e82bf49691ac3ec5459d828a79b0282a.jpg

 

Stanier D2170 TK:

 

1199792998_LMSD2170TKM13097(1).jpg.54ec3dfac17be4fabe20d9c1c558412b.jpg

 

Stanier D1915 TO:

 

1095968302_LMSD1915TOM9051M(2).jpg.d7a9238059d817a37b2f9c820f3bd697.jpg

 

Don’t mention the roof ribs…..

 

Kind regards and good night,

 

Iain

 

When making up my paper bellows for gangway connectors I now routinely use some black thread and a sewing needle to discreetly tether them, equally, near the top and the bottom, allowing them to remain fully springy but limiting their expansion to the "necessary amount" to keep the gaps between carriages closed, and ensuring that when there is no adjacent carriage they still have vertical end plates. Each carriage can thus be used as either  an end vehicle or an intermediate one.

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6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There we go. I think that 3" dimension is pretty common, corresponding to an 8ft radius - standard on Midland carriages from the 1870s, so probably on LMS standard designs too. An exception would be the "clipper" sided Midland dining and sleeping carriages, where the saloon sections were 9'0"t width, with the upper side tapering in to 8'6" at the eves - but still straight; I presume the LNER wood-panelled carriages were also straight not curved above the waist. I think the true tumblehome, in the form of an arc profiled above the waist, came in with the BR Mk1 carriages?

 

Nevertheless, from a lexicographical point of view (which spousely loyalty obliges me to take), "tumblehome" is now an established term for what the LNER C&W DO called "turnunder"; usage has made it correct.

 

 

The later Period III Stanier coaches had a slightly altered profile. 5522 kits did some etched ends with the modified profile. Alistair Wright still likes to get his stock correct.

 

Baz

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51 minutes ago, Barry O said:

The later Period III Stanier coaches had a slightly altered profile. 5522 kits did some etched ends with the modified profile. Alistair Wright still likes to get his stock correct.

 

Baz

Hi Baz

 

Essery and Jenkinson in their multi volume LMS coaches mention the CK was of a revised profile, in fact make a fuss over it. Larry Goddard in his review of the Bachmann Porthole stock on here praised them for getting the profile right on the CK stating it was different from the standard LMS profile. Were there any others which Essery and Jenkinson missed? 

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3 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Baz

 

Essery and Jenkinson in their multi volume LMS coaches mention the CK was of a revised profile, in fact make a fuss over it. Larry Goddard in his review of the Bachmann Porthole stock on here praised them for getting the profile right on the CK stating it was different from the standard LMS profile. Were there any others which Essery and Jenkinson missed? 

The porthole CK was indeed very different and appears well captured by Bachmann. Not sure about the other types but the brake third corridors latterly had the sides lower and an extra bit of side below the cantrail, so the doors did not go all the way up.

 

8313262519_c36b7bc008_c.jpg45569_Harrow_1952_crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Note the absence of ribs on the roofs too.

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4 hours ago, rka said:

Thank you for your reply Tony, 

 

It goes to show that ignorance might be a blessing then because it looks very much like a an A4 to me even after you pointed out the errors. 

 

Best regards Richard 

Thanks Richard,

 

Most of the errors/omissions I mentioned are at source, and can be rectified throughout the build.

 

I'm happy with the six SEF A4s I'll have on Little Bytham...................... 60013 is almost complete (apart from the motion)  and will be painted by Geoff Haynes. At the moment, Ian Rathbone is repainting SIR NIGEL GRESLEY from preserved LNER blue (built originally for Shap, 1967) into BR lined green.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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3 hours ago, robertcwp said:

60014 appears to have a plastic body but I'm not sure of the origin. The tender is A4 corridor and looked like a Hornby one to me. It is dedicated to the Flying Scotsman as the tender has a Kaydee coupling, as does the leading BSK of the Flying Scotsman set. It is the only one with Kaydees on the layout so far as I could see. Once I had given the stock an overhaul, 60014 handled the set without any trouble. It had been slipping previously.

 

Not previously mentioned I believe is that 60005 Sir Charles Newton is also on Retford. It's easy to spot as it is in dirty Gateshead condition. So the four A4s are 60005, 60014, 60018 and 60027.

 

I discovered recently that in amongst the DJH A1s that Roy had, there is a Bachmann one, 60117, which is on The Queen of Scots. I don't know whether the mechanism has been replaced. It can certainly handle the Pullmans, but it is only a 10-car set and they are all Hornby.

Good evening Robert,

 

I think 60005 and 60117 might well be Tim Shackleton's work, though others might know better.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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9 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

With in excess of 2,000 pages now, Wright Writes is bound to change over time. Some will consider it for the worst; others for the better. It is a matter of opinion.

 

I encourage robust debate (as long as it's not personally 'abusive'), and I think Wright Writes (and other threads) allow this. 

 

As has been said already, we all have levels of 'tolerance' towards what we'll accept in a model and what we won't. If we go along the path of greater 'accuracy' in our model-making, it doesn't make us dogmatic. More discerning, perhaps? 

 

That said, nobody has the right to dictate to others what they 'must' or 'must not' do in their modelling, though constructive criticism is often helpful.

 

Regards to all correspondents. 

 

Tony. 

Tony,

 

I agree with the above. I can see that some people may have been offended by the innuendo, but other than that I thought the debate over the last couple of days was always kept civilised. Some people have a fairly unsubtle way of expressing their opinion but one learns to live with that as one of the perils of posting on here. it’s been one of the more useful debates in actually flushing out some diagrams and dimensions. 

 

Long may it continue as far as I’m concerned.
 

Andy

 

 

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6 hours ago, sandra said:


Tony,

 

I’m interested in that you are building an SEF kit for an A4. I think Retford could do with another A4 and I was pondering what would be the best way to achieve this.
 

The easiest way would be simply to convert a Hornby A4 to EM gauge but this doesn’t quite fit with the Retford ethos and anyway its haulage capacity may not be sufficient. I did think of an SEF A4 but I’ve not heard good reports of them and therefore I discounted this possibility. I did also think of trying to find a Pro Scale A4 but I believe these kits are difficult to build and not necessarily accurate. A further possibility is a Martin Finney A4 but I believe this has a resin boiler which puts me off.

 

I therefore wonder if you have any thoughts on the matter taking into account that I would need the locomotive to haul up to 15 coaches on the far from flat layout.

 

Sandra

 

 

Sandra,

 

One of the advantages of A4s compared with the other Pacifics is that there is loads of room inside the streamlined casing to add lead. Therefore it matters less what the body is made from. My ballasted Hornby A4s are capable of handling 20+ Mark 1s on the flat. I can’t vouch for how they’d perform on your gradients though...or how you’d convert one to EM. I also have a Wills A4 body (the predecessor of the SEF one) on a Hornby chassis. I found this hard to build. The fit of the parts was poor and there was a lot of pitting - I believe that more recent versions are better though. This hauls slightly more than the ballasted Hornby ones but that’s hardly necessary!


Happy streak hunting!

 

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

The porthole CK was indeed very different and appears well captured by Bachmann. Not sure about the other types but the brake third corridors latterly had the sides lower and an extra bit of side below the cantrail, so the doors did not go all the way up.

 

8313262519_c36b7bc008_c.jpg45569_Harrow_1952_crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Note the absence of ribs on the roofs too.

Hi Robert

 

I was looking at that photo the other night on your flickr site, at first sight it looks like it could be riding a tad lower but the bottom of the solebar and the roof line up with the coaches either side so it must be different. I will have to check my Bachmann model of the BSK to see if they got that right. The FK between them seems to be more orthodox in its profile.

 

Robert's Flickr site is a wonderful resource if you haven't already had look, especially the coaches page.

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6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

124907667_SEFinecastA460017.jpg.0acfd5ae5ff8db9e6c8b9cac9f16cd5a.jpg

 

And one of my more-recent SEF A4 builds in the form of SILVER FOX.

 

 

Whatever the faults the SEF A4 may have - and I suspect many will be completely ignorant of them (I was) and would be happy to overlook most/all in any case, if they were to possess an A4 of the quality of that shown above they would be very happy indeed - I know I would.

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Morning Tony 

As with a lot of others people I keep reading this wonderful thread as it moves along at quite a pace ,subjects come and go along with discussions ,  I once said to you at some exhibition that I was reluctant to seek out this website when my son told me about it, but I’am glad I did , I have picked up so many tips and ideas from reading it.

 

 Your description of the faults on the SEF A4 misses the one that has always put me off building it , that is the shape of the front end just in front of the buffers, to me it’s to bulbous in shape , if that makes sense.

 

I have just finished the K3 that I posted on here back at the start of lockdown, I then took the given advice and acquired a SEF fret for different cabs, this brought another problem that was mentioned with my Anchoridge K3, I had to cut the footplate in front of the cab and reform it !!  It’s not been an easy kit to build but I’ve signed it off now.

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Hello Tony,

I would think that the Retford weathering you referred to would be the work of Tim Shackleton, he used to do a train at a time as I remember.

There were at least 3 Hornby A4's on Retford that I converted, and latterly we re-converted  some if not all of them with the Brassmasters etches that fit over the Hornby chassis. We found that they ran steadier and had better traction with the form of springing the Brassmasters system used. The main advantage to using the Brassmasters  etches was that the centre driven axle was supported properly on both sides, whereas the Hornby chassis in its' original form only has one large supporting bearing with the driven gear offset to one side. Over the years, with the distances covered by these locos on Retford working as hard as they do, we found that the centre axles developed a distinct fore and aft wobble, which is why Roy decided to go with the Brassmasters etches. If I remember correctly, the rebuilt W1 which is a Graeme King body conversion done by Graeme, also has a Brassmasters chassis etch over the Hornby original chassis, and we found the traction much improved too.

 

Pete

Edited by pete55
Spelling, well it is late!
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8 hours ago, pete55 said:

Hello Tony,

I would think that the Retford weathering you referred to would be the work of Tim Shackleton, he used to do a train at a time as I remember.

There were at least 3 Hornby A4's on Retford that I converted, and latterly we re-converted  some if not all of them with the Brassmasters etches that fit over the Hornby chassis. We found that they ran steadier and had better traction with the form of springing the Brassmasters system used. The main advantage to using the Brassmasters  etches was that the centre driven axle was supported properly on both sides, whereas the Hornby chassis in its' original form only has one large supporting bearing with the driven gear offset to one side. Over the years, with the distances covered by these locos on Retford working as hard as they do, we found that the centre axles developed a distinct fore and aft wobble, which is why Roy decided to go with the Brassmasters etches. If I remember correctly, the rebuilt W1 which is a Graeme King body conversion done by Graeme, also has a Brassmasters chassis etch over the Hornby original chassis, and we found the traction much improved too.

 

Pete

The weathering on 60005 is very good. You know it's a Gateshead engine straight away as it's the only really grubby A4 on the layout.

 

The W1 runs very well and has plenty of pulling power. 60014 does too. I have not run 60005 much but it was fine when I did. 60027 on the Elizabethan is I believe of different origin, being a Trix body if I recall correctly. 60018 seems to be the problematic one.

 

This is my current small project for Retford:

 

 

IMG_0845S.jpg.4bc6f2fda50b0db4777159f70f454823.jpg

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11 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

The weathering on 60005 is very good. You know it's a Gateshead engine straight away as it's the only really grubby A4 on the layout.

 

The W1 runs very well and has plenty of pulling power. 60014 does too. I have not run 60005 much but it was fine when I did. 60027 on the Elizabethan is I believe of different origin, being a Trix body if I recall correctly. 60018 seems to be the problematic one.

 

This is my current small project for Retford:

 

 

IMG_0845S.jpg.4bc6f2fda50b0db4777159f70f454823.jpg

Good morning Robert,

 

When the lockdown restrictions are eased, I'll crack on with fitting Retford's loco lamps as well. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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8 hours ago, D.Platt said:

Morning Tony 

As with a lot of others people I keep reading this wonderful thread as it moves along at quite a pace ,subjects come and go along with discussions ,  I once said to you at some exhibition that I was reluctant to seek out this website when my son told me about it, but I’am glad I did , I have picked up so many tips and ideas from reading it.

 

 Your description of the faults on the SEF A4 misses the one that has always put me off building it , that is the shape of the front end just in front of the buffers, to me it’s to bulbous in shape , if that makes sense.

 

I have just finished the K3 that I posted on here back at the start of lockdown, I then took the given advice and acquired a SEF fret for different cabs, this brought another problem that was mentioned with my Anchoridge K3, I had to cut the footplate in front of the cab and reform it !!  It’s not been an easy kit to build but I’ve signed it off now.

Good morning Dennis,

 

I think I understand what you mean about the too-bulbous bit of the front end of the SEF A4.

 

I know I change it slightly, by pinching the front end in and filing the wedge-shaped front to fit, then file it more in profile.

 

In fairness, I think the current Hornby A4 has the body-shape just about dead right, but I'm still prejudiced about its nether regions. The one I have on Little Bytham won't pull anything like the loads taken by the SEF ones (though I haven't added more weight) and it has a tendency to waddle along as it runs.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

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11 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Robert's Flickr site is a wonderful resource if you haven't already had look, especially the coaches page.

Wow! I've just 'lost' myself for nearly an hour looking through this. What a fantastic resource indeed.

 

Thanks Clive for highlighting it but more fundamentally thanks to Robert for taking the time to put it together and make it available.

 

It will get some serious looking at as I start to get into the detail of Carlisle mid-late 1950s over the coming years ...

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18 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Robert,

 

When the lockdown restrictions are eased, I'll crack on with fitting Retford's loco lamps as well. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

As if by magic, you might find that the stock of lamps you provided has already been used up!

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2 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Wow! I've just 'lost' myself for nearly an hour looking through this. What a fantastic resource indeed.

 

Thanks Clive for highlighting it but more fundamentally thanks to Robert for taking the time to put it together and make it available.

 

It will get some serious looking at as I start to get into the detail of Carlisle mid-late 1950s over the coming years ...

At the bottom right of each image, there is an arrow curving up to the right. If you click on that and select BB code, you can the paste the code into a message on this forum (you don't need to use the link button on the toolbar - just paste in the text) and the image will appear in it. Like this:

 

50554227161_777ae5202c_c.jpg60158_Highdyke_1950s by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

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9 hours ago, D.Platt said:

93AE9C73-8E05-46E1-81CD-22110FE5725E.jpeg

That is a very nice K3. I'm building one too, and finding whitemetal a bit of a pain after etched kits, weight advantage notwithstanding. On mine, I'm using one of High Level's small iron core motors, which fits nicely and allows me to drive off the centre axle. Photos show progress to date.

IMG_20201122_093334.jpg

IMG_20201122_093410.jpg

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