Crompton-hauled Redhill-Reading services

[John Oxlade]

I'm having nostalgia kick-in big-time at the moment but previously, even though my father was a driver at Redhill for 30+ years and we lived slap-bang alongside the line north of Redhill, I was never that bothered about British railways - until now.

I know there used to be some peak-hour services from Redhill to Reading in the 70s and 80s (exact dates??) that were loco-hauled by 33s, but my memory is hazy as to the formations. As far as I recall (not reliable), they were usually 3-car sets of Mk 1s, but I'd like to find out more.

Unfortunately, Dad passed away last month and I cannot now ask him, but there's probably 101 things he could tell me off the top of his head, this being one of them.

I'm going to sell off all my US-outline models and get a few nice British 00 items (already got a Heljan 33), but I want to make sure I get appropriate items and not jsut buy everything in sight. I'd rather go without a specific model than "make do".

I'm also on the look out for some HKV mineral hoppers so I can model the British Industrial Sand traffic. For that I'll need a BR blue 08 - come on Hornby, what yer playin' around out? I don't want green, railfreight, EWS, NSE, I want good ol' BR BLUE!

Anyway, enough rambling, like I said, Mk 1 train formations on the Redhill - Reading line is first, so anyone have any info.?

Many thanks and kind regards
John

[kintbury jon]

Not very helpful, but evidence of the service!

 

http://railwayherald.com/imagingcentre/view/259062/PL

 

Wikipedia states that services ended in 1977.

[kintbury jon]

Here we go:

 

http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.co...N05/6950513066/

http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

 

The three coach rake looks like two seconds (i'd guess open) plus a corridor brake 2nd

The two coach rake is one second and a brake 2nd.

 

Interesting to see the shot at Reading is not in the usual 4a/4b platforms though it seems logical as the loco can then run around its train.

[John Oxlade]

Thanks for that, I also found those three photos on Flickr by searching for 33 redhill. Just came on here to post that and found your replies :-) None of the photos seems to show a 1st/2nd comp. which I had expected.

I remember a cab ride with my Dad on one of these back from Reading one time. I mean I remember the occasion but that's about it.

Ended 1977? I'd have been 13, so sounds about right.

Thanks for the info. anyway.
Kind regards
John

[Gwiwer]

The typical SR 3-car Mk1 rake consisted of CK+BSK+TSO and could be found for some years on secondary services across the region including the peak Reading - Redhill services. The same rakes could turn up on Brighton - Tunbridge Wells / Oxted workings and Portsmouth - Reading duties. One was also added to the 8-set employed on the Brighton - Exeter service strengthening that to 11 coaches on summer Saturdays until DEMU operation replaced loco-and-coaches in 1972. The set worked into Brighton from the Oxted route on a Friday night, was otherwise spare for the weekend and was shunted onto the Exeter rake overnight as that was always berthed in Hove Yard.

 

The Reading - Redhill route officially didn't offer first class meaning it would have been legitimately possible to travel in that accommodation for a second class fare just as happened when a 3H DEMU was run in place of the normal 3R units. One or two peak diagrams were rostered for a 3H as well.

 

A run-round at Redhill was quite easy though couldn't always be accomplished during the time allowed for a DEMU to reverse there and wasn't unduly difficult at Tonbridge either. At Reading the trains had to be routed into a through platform, sometimes via the underpass to the northern side of the station, in order to avoid trapping the loco at the buffers. Until the link to General was in use these trains terminated at Reading (Southern) which had a loco-release.

 

Loco-hauled operation was sporadic and would have come to an end no later than the date the WR took over responsibility for the route which IIRC was in 1977.

[roundhouse]

I didnt realise that there were loco hauled passenger services after the end of steam (apart from the cross country services) after the end of steam so very interesting.

With regards the sand traffic, this had ceased by 1994. This has all now gone under redevelopment in recent years.

[Gwiwer]

The SR saw plenty of loco haulage (and a good deal of loco-propulsion and occasionally even some loco-piggy-in-the-middle workings) after steam. While many were peak services with the stock standing idle much of the day that wasn't always the case.

 

Starting with Reading - Redhill - Tonbridge (as per OP) there have been also:-

Victoria / London Bridge - East Grinstead / Brighton via Uckfield;

Tunbridge Wells West - Brighton via Uckfield and to London Bridge / Victoria via Oxted;

Waterloo - Exeter (and Plymouth via Okehampton until closure)

Brighton / Portsmouth Harbour - Exeter (and Plymouth as above)

Portsmouth Harbour - Bristol - Cardiff;

Portsmouth Harbour - Reading via Winchester

Reading - Salisbury;

Waterloo - Southampton Docks / Weymouth Quay

Clapham Junction - Kensington Olympia

and a whole clutch of passenger and news trains in the small hours including:

Victoria - Brighton / Eastbourne / Dover / Medway Towns

Waterloo - Weymouth

 

In some cases part or most of the service was DEMU-operated but at least one scheduled train was locomotive-worked with loose-coupled stock or TC units. This includes the 6TC and 7TC units on the Oxted lines.

[finelines]

The Reading to Tonbridge Line by R W Kidner 1974 brings the history into the diesel era. I think it includes set numbers.

 

Roger

[Ressaldar]

The Reading to Tonbridge Line by R W Kidner 1974 brings the history into the diesel era. I think it includes set numbers.

 

Roger

 

there is a photo on page 32 of (D)6583 hauling a van and three coach Set no 12 at Reigate dated 30.07.73 - later in the book, page 64, states the make-up of Set 12 as SO 3848, BSK 34643 and SO 3849 (1967 - to date(1974))

 

Hope that this helps

 

Mike

[roundhouse]

The SR saw plenty of loco haulage (and a good deal of loco-propulsion and occasionally even some loco-piggy-in-the-middle workings) after steam. While many were peak services with the stock standing idle much of the day that wasn't always the case.

 

Starting with Reading - Redhill - Tonbridge (as per OP) there have been also:-

Victoria / London Bridge - East Grinstead / Brighton via Uckfield;

Tunbridge Wells West - Brighton via Uckfield and to London Bridge / Victoria via Oxted;

Waterloo - Exeter (and Plymouth via Okehampton until closure)

Brighton / Portsmouth Harbour - Exeter (and Plymouth as above)

Portsmouth Harbour - Bristol - Cardiff;

Portsmouth Harbour - Reading via Winchester

Reading - Salisbury;

Waterloo - Southampton Docks / Weymouth Quay

Clapham Junction - Kensington Olympia

and a whole clutch of passenger and news trains in the small hours including:

Victoria - Brighton / Eastbourne / Dover / Medway Towns

Waterloo - Weymouth

 

In some cases part or most of the service was DEMU-operated but at least one scheduled train was locomotive-worked with loose-coupled stock or TC units. This includes the 6TC and 7TC units on the Oxted lines.

I remember the Oxted line loco hauled services as I often caught an evening one out of London Bridge from platform 8 and the now long closed platform 7 back in the 80's with a Compton on the front.

Ian

[Oldddudders]

Middleton Press's "Guildford to Redhill" includes a pic of the 1640 Redhill-Reading 24.4.1973. 6571, GUV, SO, BSK (I think) plus one more coach.

[eastwestdivide]

Also Redhill-Tonbridge in the rush hour, 33+Mk1s, as late as 1977/78-ish. I posted in another thread on here... quoting myself:

 

 

Yes, definitely in 1978-79 ish (although I couldn't swear to the formation, but 33+ a few Mk1s is what I remember)

I think it was a late rush hour extra doing only part of the route of the normal hourly Tonbridge-Redhill (reverse)-Guildford-Reading service which was normally "Tadpole" 3-car DEMUs.

I caught it back in about 78-79, and when we got back to Tonbridge my mate disappeared. Later discovered he'd cabbed the loco as it ran round to go back to the sidings.

And I don't think the line was ever single track (waits for corrections...)

Edit: just found my notes: 6 April 1978, hauled by 33050 from Redhill-Tonbridge, in coach S4392 (SO/TSO). The formation was 4066, 4392, 34638, so no first class then.

 

(follow the swoopy arrow to get the whole thread)

[John Oxlade]

Lots of good info in here, thanks to everyone.

[John Oxlade]

The Reading to Tonbridge Line by R W Kidner 1974 brings the history into the diesel era. I think it includes set numbers.

 

Roger

My copy just arrived today thanks to Abe Books (guaranteed to help you lighten your wallet!). It does indeed have information showing that even in the 1970s the Southern Region had defined and numbered sets of coaches. Those in use on the Reading-Tonbridge services were SO+BSK+SO. Now photographic evidence also suggests that these were not exclusively used, but it is a start.

Looks like I'm going to be renumbering some Bachmann MK1s.

[Thumper1315]

I was flicking through my copy of Keith Parkin's British Railways Mark 1 Coaches Supplement and on page s79 it has a Reading - Tonbridge formation for 1964 as

 

Set 541

 

CK     15871

BSK   34935

TSO    4030

[Reading General]

Just seen this old thread, my apologies for re-opening it.

 

What no-one seems to have mentioned is that these loco hauled trains almost invariably turned up at Reading as a three car set PLUS a PMV. I can't recall ever seeing such a working not comprised thus.

 

Usually they worked into a through platform but occasionally they would work into bay No6, I think this was to facilitate parcels loading. They'd then have to reverse out of course before running round. There wasn't a set pattern as far as I know. Sometimes the loco would deposit the coaches in the fuelling point sidings and go home light.

 

As noted sometimes a Hampshire unit would be used vs a 3R, but also very rarely a East Sussex unit would turn up and on a couple of occasions I witnessed a Hastings 6 car. You might recall that the usual practise was for a 3R to creep into plat4A on top of a Waterloo service, with probably 2 coaches off the end.....imagine that with a 6 Car....because it was 4A they ran into on both occasions. Memories!

[jonny777]

Being pedantic, I don't think platform 4A existed at Reading in the early 70s because when SR services were diverted to General from South there was only 1 platform face. The whole affair was just a concrete jobby perched above the car park, and with a metal railing to stop people going over the edge.

 

Presumably that was just platform 4?

 

When the second track was added and 4A/B appeared is a question I cannot answer at present. I must look at some photos, but there seems to have been a second face by the summer of 1976.

[Reading General]

Platform 4 was the Down Main

[jonny777]

Oh, ok. I see.

 

So there was a 4A but no 4B initially?

[Reading General]

correct

[jonny777]

Thanks. I really should engage my brain before rambling.

[Reading General]

it was an awful half thought out idea anyway (not yours :-) )  

 

Now three paltforms for the ex-Southern lines.....they should have kept South Station!

[The Stationmaster]

The typical SR 3-car Mk1 rake consisted of CK+BSK+TSO and could be found for some years on secondary services across the region including the peak Reading - Redhill services. The same rakes could turn up on Brighton - Tunbridge Wells / Oxted workings and Portsmouth - Reading duties. One was also added to the 8-set employed on the Brighton - Exeter service strengthening that to 11 coaches on summer Saturdays until DEMU operation replaced loco-and-coaches in 1972. The set worked into Brighton from the Oxted route on a Friday night, was otherwise spare for the weekend and was shunted onto the Exeter rake overnight as that was always berthed in Hove Yard.

 

The Reading - Redhill route officially didn't offer first class meaning it would have been legitimately possible to travel in that accommodation for a second class fare just as happened when a 3H DEMU was run in place of the normal 3R units. One or two peak diagrams were rostered for a 3H as well.

 

A run-round at Redhill was quite easy though couldn't always be accomplished during the time allowed for a DEMU to reverse there and wasn't unduly difficult at Tonbridge either. At Reading the trains had to be routed into a through platform, sometimes via the underpass to the northern side of the station, in order to avoid trapping the loco at the buffers. Until the link to General was in use these trains terminated at Reading (Southern) which had a loco-release.

 

Loco-hauled operation was sporadic and would have come to an end no later than the date the WR took over responsibility for the route which IIRC was in 1977.

Effectively following the September 1965 rationalisation and closure of the Southern station there was just Platform 4A for Southern electric services at Reading - it was basically a conversion of the former pilot line and fish dock at the east end of Platform 4 with a new platform added on the south side and the connection into the former Southern line was routed over the original steeply graded incline at Reading East Main.

 

There was no connection from the remaining siding using the underpass to any platform lines at Reading following commissioning of MAS in April 1965 and there certainly hadn't been such a connection at any time during the preceding 30 years - the only way a passenger train could be routed that way was via the Goods Lines so I suspect your recollection might be slightly adrift there Rick.  In fact the Instructions for passenger train working via the Low Level line were withdrawn following the April 1965 resignalling and in any event the line could not be accessed from the Down SR line without a backshunt through a ground frame operated crossover.   The loco hauled trains simply ran via the wartime link between Reading Spur and Reading New Jcn which enabled them to reach any platform line in the Western station although they were slightly restricted in respect of which platform could be used to run round as the Down Main platform (No.4) wasn't at that time signalled for eastbound passenger train use.  

 

Of course under the new 21st century layout the underpass is now a fully signalled route for passenger trains and, should one wish, can be sampled on a Cross Country Voyager on most days of the week should one not fancy a very early morning or late night trip on a Class 166.

[bécasse]

It wasn't just loco-hauled trains that ran into the main station, certainly when the new arrangements were first introduced some trains formed of 3R units ran into one or other of the up end bays. I imagine, but don't know for certain, that it was done to retain Southern crews' route knowledge over the wartime connection, but it may have been done to facilitate mailbag transfers between up WR main line services and Redhill as half the "tadpole head" was given over to mailbags on certain workings, the seat cushions being reversed.

[Reading General]

I should have added that to my post. Yes the 3Rs did run into usually bay 6 for mailbag transfer, That's why I mentioned the 33 and coaches doing the same. Very poor pic of this, my own.