Hornby 'KitKat' van and similar - prototype?

[petethemole]

This is the one I mentioned way back in the thread, with Ratio LNWR underframe and added vac cylinder. One of the brake pipes had fallen off when the picture was taken.

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

16 minutes ago, PatB said:

So would something like the Gloucester wood underframe be, if not fully accurate for a H&B wagon, be a suitably generic representation of something of suitable era? 

 

I should think so. 

 

Looking at the photo on the previous page it's just a typical wooden frame with a single sided brake acting on one wheel. Obviously for a later date it would probably have received more modern brake gear.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66764-Hornby-kitkat-van-and-similar-prototype/&do=findComment&comment=910147

 

 

 

Jason

Edited August 29, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[PatB]

5 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I should think so. 

 

Looking at the photo on the previous page it's just a typical wooden frame with a single sided brake acting on one wheel. Obviously for a later date it would probably have received more modern brake gear.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66764-Hornby-kitkat-van-and-similar-prototype/&do=findComment&comment=910147

 

 

 

Jason

Thanks for that. 

 

Incidentally, you prompted me to take a closer look at that photo and was interested to note what appear to be lamp irons on a clearly unfitted vehicle. 

[Ruston]

1 hour ago, PatB said:

So would something like the Gloucester wood underframe be, if not fully accurate for a H&B wagon, be a suitably generic representation of something of suitable era? 

I have only ever seen 2 photos of H&B vans that show the frames clearly and neither had the semi-circular crown plates that those Gloucester frames have, the H&B wagons having just plain washers behind the nuts that fix the axle guards to the solebars. The Ratio solebars are better but you will have to make your own headstocks.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I should think so. 

 

Looking at the photo on the previous page it's just a typical wooden frame with a single sided brake acting on one wheel. Obviously for a later date it would probably have received more modern brake gear.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66764-Hornby-kitkat-van-and-similar-prototype/&do=findComment&comment=910147

 

 

But that's not the van we're looking for - it's one of the second batch of H&B D13 covered goods wagons, built in 1888 to a design due to William Kirtley of the LC&DR, who was consulting engineer for the opening of the line. In 4 mm/ft scale, there's a whitemetal kit for this from 51L.

 

The Kitkat van's body is based on the H&B D21 insulated/refrigerator van (some were one, some the other, apparently) built 1902-1913, mostly by Cravens. As originally turned out, they where white - or at least the refrigerated ones were - following a convention for such vehicles established by the LNWR in the 19th century and followed by quite a few of the pre-grouping companies.

 

Ref. P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 2007)

 

I did start converting some as freelance Biscuit Vans, using the Cambrian Gloucester 9ft wheelbase wood underframe - a project to which I think I might soon return:

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Compound2632

[micklner]

Upgraded version , with a couple of the old Hornby ex NER Refrigerator version.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by micklner

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But that's not the van we're looking for - it's one of the second batch of H&B D13 covered goods wagons, built in 1888 to a design due to William Kirtley of the LC&DR, who was consulting engineer for the opening of the line. In 4 mm/ft scale, there's a whitemetal kit for this from 51L.

 

The Kitkat van's body is based on the H&B D21 insulated/refrigerator van (some were one, some the other, apparently) built 1902-1913, mostly by Cravens. As originally turned out, they where white - or at least the refrigerated ones were - following a convention for such vehicles established by the LNWR in the 19th century and followed by quite a few of the pre-grouping companies.

 

Ref. P. Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 2007)

 

I did start converting some as freelance Biscuit Vans, using the Cambrian Gloucester 9ft wheelbase wood underframe - a project to which I think I might soon return:

 

 

But he did say "generic representation" so I was responding to that.

 

 

Mine are all staying as they are as they were all presents when I was a kid. KitKat, Weetabix, Smiths, etc. Also a Typhoo Tea van from Lima. I don't collect them, just keeping the ones I've got.

 

 

 

Jason

[PatB]

15 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

But he did say "generic representation" so I was responding to that.

 

 

Indeed. I tend towards the impressionistic (aka grossly inaccurate) school of modelling. I'm discerning enough these days to try and avoid BR steel underframes on pre-grouping stock, but, as long as it's plausibly early, and wood where it should be, I can live with things like crown plate detailing or works plate positioning being wrong, for the sake of using a reasonably straightforward and available kit, rather than using parts that are effective noonger available or cannibalised from other kits. Being on the other side of the world limits the availability of misc bits and pieces, whilst my own incompetence and time poverty indicate against attempting a scratch build. 

[roythebus]

One of the KitKat van adverts actually used Wimbledon Common as the backdrop! Miles away from any railway...oh well.

[Trog]

On ‎30‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 09:53, roythebus said:

One of the KitKat van adverts actually used Wimbledon Common as the backdrop! Miles away from any railway...oh well.

 

That really takes the biscuit.

[EHertsGER]

On 29/08/2019 at 06:27, petethemole said:

This is the one I mentioned way back in the thread, with Ratio LNWR underframe and added vac cylinder. One of the brake pipes had fallen off when the picture was taken.

 

 

Ha! The elusive numbering missing from my effort. Out with the decals!

[Compound2632]

Tatlow Vol. 2 gives "sample" numbering - all H&B nos. but as far as I can work out these were only ever prefixed HB in NER/LNER ownership - micklner's number is among them but not petethemole's, which properly belongs to a 10 ton 18'6" highsided open built by Chas Roberts in 1905.

[Wickham Green]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

....... as far as I can work out these were only ever prefixed HB in NER/LNER ownership ...........

That's understandable in NER days with Grouping on the horizon - but it's rather odd that the LNER couldn't find a block of numbers they could slot them into - even half a block with one of the smaller Companies.

[Compound2632]

"NER days" - 275 of them. According to Tatlow, because the NER wagon stock accounted for 43% of LNER stock at grouping, they retained their numbers. The NER was using a numbering system for some wagons in which a prefix letter was used - a bit like the old road vehicle registration year letters. I'm thoroughly confused by this; it started in 1908 but some wagons built after that had conventional numbers. These wagons were eventually given ordinary numbers by the LNER but the ex-H&B wagons seem to have slipped through the net.

[john new]

 

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

"NER days" - 275 of them. According to Tatlow, because the NER wagon stock accounted for 43% of LNER stock at grouping, they retained their numbers. The NER was using a numbering system for some wagons in which a prefix letter was used - a bit like the old road vehicle registration year letters. I'm thoroughly confused by this; it started in 1908 but some wagons built after that had conventional numbers. These wagons were eventually given ordinary numbers by the LNER but the ex-H&B wagons seem to have slipped through the net.

 

If you place the quote from Tatlow above as the last item, rather than first, it does makes reasonable sense re the ex-H&B stock if you look at the timeline sequence and remember that the H&B did not become a constituent of the LNER in 1923. Reason = it had already ceased to exist as a company before 1923; their rolling stock was by that point absorbed into the NER fleet.

 

1922 - The NER took over the H&B and numbered their stock with pre-fix HB. (They are now therefore in NER stock in an HB pre-fixed section)

1923 - Grouping puts all the NER stock into the LNER where Tatlow states "they retained their numbers". 

 

Surely therefore the ex-NER series with leading HB on the number would just stay as they were HBxxx etc., at least initially, post 1923. The rest of the NER numbers may have been a complete b*****s muddle, and the lists in the HB series equally random for wagon types, but HB as a collective suffix grouped them and each individual wagon had a code for all for the necessary admin in tracking them and raising invoices for what had been carried in them.

 

I'm no expert by any means on the subject, but the above explanation seems to fit what has been said.

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by john new
Typo & clarity

[Wickham Green]

Yes - if you stick to the rigid mantra that all NER wagons will retain their existing numbers that makes perfect sense ............ but you'd think 'someone' would have seen the absurdity of having one block of prefixed numbers. What's more there must have been potential for confusion when a station received a telegram requesting despatch of 'HB 1234' and - however hard they looked - couldn't find a horsebox of the number !

[Compound2632]

Was HB ever telegraphic code for a horsebox? The NER's prefix system was introduced once NER wagon numbers got into six figures and hence life was becoming harder for number-takers but evidently wasn't a good enough idea to be taken up more widely though I think at the time only Midland numbers were also into six digits. The number taker had to record the owning company as well as the number, so after grouping traded a reduction in companies for an increase in digits.

[Fat Controller]

31 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Was HB ever telegraphic code for a horsebox? The NER's prefix system was introduced once NER wagon numbers got into six figures and hence life was becoming harder for number-takers but evidently wasn't a good enough idea to be taken up more widely though I think at the time only Midland numbers were also into six digits. The number taker had to record the owning company as well as the number, so after grouping traded a reduction in companies for an increase in digits.

It was in BR days, according to photos in Vol 2 of Larkin's trilogy on BR Parcels and Passenger-Rated Stock.

[45568]

A late survivor in BR grey?

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[Poor Old Bruce]

If you are not into kit building new chassis, the Dapol chassis for their rectangular tar tank is a good fit for both the H&B and the L&Y vans. You just have to run a file across the backs of the end stanchions of the H&B van to make it fit (the L&Y van doesn't have such niceties). The chassis are available as spares from Dapol.

[Ruston]

1 hour ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

If you are not into kit building new chassis, the Dapol chassis for their rectangular tar tank is a good fit for both the H&B and the L&Y vans. You just have to run a file across the backs of the end stanchions of the H&B van to make it fit (the L&Y van doesn't have such niceties). The chassis are available as spares from Dapol.

Which L&Y vans do you mean?

[JohnR]

Could someone advise which of the Parkside chassis kits would be the best fit to the H&B van? I'm looking at PA07 BR/RCH 9 foot Wagon Chassis kit (Unfitted) - Morton Brake and PA08 BR/RCH 9 foot Wagon Chassis kit (Unfitted) - Double Brake, but happy to go with a better one if there is? 

 

I'm not looking for 100% prototype fidelity - just something that "looks right" to replace the Hornby chassis.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

Could someone advise which of the Parkside chassis kits would be the best fit to the H&B van? I'm looking at PA07 BR/RCH 9 foot Wagon Chassis kit (Unfitted) - Morton Brake and PA08 BR/RCH 9 foot Wagon Chassis kit (Unfitted) - Double Brake, but happy to go with a better one if there is? 

 

I'm not looking for 100% prototype fidelity - just something that "looks right" to replace the Hornby chassis.

 

How about the Cambrian Gloucester underframe?

 

[jwealleans]

The Cambrian is better as all the diagrams you can make from the Hornby body (IIRC) have wooden solebars.

 

Many of them also have 14mm mansell wheels, though, which probably won't work with a wagon underframe.

 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Many of them also have 14mm mansell wheels, though, which probably won't work with a wagon underframe.

 

True, but it depends what you're trying to achieve. You have done wonders turning them into excellent models of actual vehicles; mine is just a freelance bodge.