Where are the Hornby models?

[APOLLO]

Well if you can't get a Hornby Warship, then there is an alternative !!!!!!!!!!  

 

http://www.ehattons.com/67966/Lima_L205135HX_Class_42_D843_Sharpshooter_in_BR_Green_DCC_fitted_Pre_owned/StockDetail.aspx

 

£50 for this second hand heap of junk with a (say £10) chip. I'd pay £20 tops for a used Lima loco.

 

Take a look at other Hattons Pre-Owned (type Pre-owned in the search box). There is a thread re this.

 

If this is the direction & price hobby is going - well, what can I say, except I will alter mine !!

 

Brit15

[Legend]

Hornby had no choice but to go to China. By their own admission, the company would have gone bust sometime around 2000-02 if it hadn't happened.

 

 

??????

The SOLE purpose of the company's existence is to make profits.

Of course they are "profit orientated". If they weren't, the board and executive would be thrown out the door or the company would go bust.

 

 

 

.

 

Of course it exists to make profit, but they seem to be making short term decisions to maximise profit eg design clever at the risk of hacking off their regular clientele in the future and risking fiture profitability.Also I was referring to the fact that Simon Kohler has been adept at extracting the max out of the model rail fraternity for years. Why else are Hornby prices significantly more than Bachmann, and always have been?!

[Fenman]

Why else are Hornby prices significantly more than Bachmann, and always have been?!

 

Are they "significantly" more? Eg, to take the first thing that came into my head:

 

Bachmann 2EPB: £119.50

Hornby 2BIL: £123.99

 

I guess there is a £4.49 difference, but it doesn't seem like much to get excited over.

 

Have I just picked the wrong pair of models?

 

Paul

[truffy]

I don't have the Bachmann 2EPB (slightly out of time for me, unfortunately), but from the photos I'd say that the detailing was superior (roof & grab handles not moulded). If the 2-BIL was not the victim of 'design clever' I suspect that it would be more expensive (and more worthwhile).

[Fenman]

I don't have the Bachmann 2EPB (slightly out of time for me, unfortunately), but from the photos I'd say that the detailing was superior (roof & grab handles not moulded). If the 2-BIL was not the victim of 'design clever' I suspect that it would be more expensive (and more worthwhile).

 

I'm clearly not playing this game properly, then. Which two models would you consider comparable?

 

Paul

[Mike Storey]

Much of this thread repeats that which has been debated several times on other threads, and most recently on that started by Todd (...Far East Manufacturing).

 

In summary:

 

1. Chinese wages, despite increasing, are still only one fifth of average European hourly rates

2. Shipping rates have gone down in the last several years, not up (although the Economist forecasts a long term increase)

3. The Chinese have plentiful labour skilled at repetitive, detailed work suited to the production of model railway items, which originates from a long tradition

4. The manufacturing competitiveness of Hornby disappeared with the bankruptcy of Sanda Kan industries, its main supplier, and the take over by Kader Industries (parent of Bachmann) of most of their factories, which have since shut, although other manufacturers have appeared.

5. The lure of more easily made, and more profitable, very high volume, long run, plastic kit manufacture, has put model railway items far down the list.

6. The transfer or expansion of manufacturing for more high-end products to China, particularly for the mobile phone and computing industry, has driven up wages and is losing even more of the workforce from lesser paid model railway factories. Apple have been cited as a major "villain" in this respect.

7. Due the Chinese New Year (February) problem, whereby 25% of staff never return afterwards, on average, due either to being homesick for their remote village and family, or due to higher wages elsewhere, there is constant hiatus in production and quality, and huge training costs for new, unskilled arrivals.

8. the above is also causing the relocation of many factories to the countryside, further constraining labour supply to existing factories.

 

There appear to be no other serious geographical contenders for a successor to Chinese cheap mass production, whether in India (insufficient manufacturing capability or expertise, insufficient and unreliable infrastructure, legal and financial unreliability and constrained foreign exchange - why have Tata, their largest manufacturer, invested heavily in the UK?), or other SE Asia countries. Turkey would certainly have the capability (it already produces many of Europe's most popular cars for FIAT and Renault, amongst others, with a relatively high degree of sophistication and quality control) but would not be anywhere near as cheap as China.

 

There are some possibilities in Eastern Europe, particularly the Czech Republic - vis Mehano - but this would rely on spare manufacturing capacity to keep prices down.

 

The medium term answer appears to be either to accept higher prices, or to await the progression of 3D manufacture to an economically viable point for 00 (and even 0 gauge) mass (at least 100 units) production. This is only just becoming viable for N gauge sizes, but history suggests this will develop as the technology and experience improves, and which would radically alter global manufacturing geography. Short term, it appears that UK firms have to get smarter at obtaining manufacturing slots, which may involve higher prices, but will at least get stuff out of the factory gates.

 

If I have misquoted anyone in my summary (from several knowledgeable sources) please feel free to correct!!

[APOLLO]

Trouble is, we all are having to accept higher prices for everything at the moment, and for the foreseeable future for life's basics, housing, food, water, energy etc. Wages are rising very slowly in comparison, if at all. Model Railways are a commodity we can do without more and more as our personal budgets are ever squeezed.

 

I think prices are quite high enough. If prices go much higher coupled with falling quality (build, detail etc) we can all guess the consequences.

 

Brit15

[Andy Hayter]

 

I think prices are quite high enough. If prices go much higher coupled with falling quality (build, detail etc) we can all guess the consequences.

 

Brit15

 

My guess, for what it is worth:

Those with the disposable income will buy the models, those without will either build for themselves, buy the second hand offering in auction sites or from their model shop or will leave the hobby.  This will reduce demand for new models and will help to bring demand and production capability back into balance - currently way out.  Which is after all why we are having this debate.

 

Saying you don't like higher prices and you are paying enough is like Canute trying to stop the incoming tide.  I don't like having to pay more, but it is sadly the way forward.

[Ozexpatriate]

Relative cost of living indices make interesting reading, especially this one (I just love the name) http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/index   Average wages in India are about one third of those in China, although it's always open to debate how up to date/accurate these statistics are. 

That site is a nice find even though what's not so evident in the colour code is the fact that the top end is 9X the bottom end - based on whatever the index is.

[Ozexpatriate]

3. The Chinese have plentiful labour skilled at repetitive, detailed work suited to the production of model railway items, which originates from a long tradition

Let's not forget just how important this one is. While humans anywhere are 'the same' there are some cultural influences that underpin this issue.

 

7. Due the Chinese New Year (February) problem, whereby 25% of staff never return afterwards, on average, due either to being homesick for their remote village and family, or due to higher wages elsewhere, there is constant hiatus in production and quality, and huge training costs for new, unskilled arrivals.

Not to mention just how horrible it must be to live away from all your family and friends for eleven months at a time in Chinese dormitory / workhouse environments that would make even Charles Dickens wince to write about.

[The Stationmaster]

Isn't this what has been happening for years?

 Not exactly John because in recent years - generally - there has been a constant, and amazingly diverse, flow of new models which have fitted in well with a society increasingly based on consumerism and the 'must have' approach to life.  While somethings obviously haven't sold so well or have been over-produced on the second production run there has been a reasonably good flow of new items spread over the year until, in Hornby's case, the past two or three years.

 

This year that situation seems to be exacerbated with even more models delayed possibly as a consequence of new suppliers ramping up, or trying to ramp up, production and their assembly skill base.  also this year Hornby has not been the only one to suffer with Bachmann also - it appears - suffering delays.  So an even wider spread of lack of new product plus a tighter market situation can have a more serious effect as retailers get more cautious.

[robmcg]

I agree with your sentiments Stationmaster.  The consumerist must-have sentiment which pervades much of society is apparent here in NZ;  two cars, 4WDs preferably, new house for first-home  buyers on average wage, fully furnished, full appliances, tech for tuppence, holidays, and so on. To some extent this is apparent in the way we have embraced the quality 00 RTR models of the last few years, well, 13 years, and are demanding of continued cheap quality.

 

Our two main 00 RTR manufacturers appears appear keen to continue trading as best they can, which is the good news. The bad news is that we don't know yet how effective and profitable this trading will be, but it s realistic to expect higher prices for the same quality, or much higher prices for a higher standard. I am curious to see how each main manufacturer will aim its trade, or whether another smaller seller will stand apart with a more demanding market niche.

 

Rob

[Coombe Barton]

... until, in Hornby's case, the past two or three years.

 

But with Hornby being the best known of these manufacturers the effect on those people basing their cash flow predictions on the availability of models to sell will have been enormous. I'm not talking so much about the people on RMweb who have come to know the score but the Christmas present buyers, those who provide a much ended boost to turnover in a critical time for retailers, even the big box shifters.

 

It can't fail to have an effect.

[Ceptic]

Are they "significantly" more? Eg, to take the first thing that came into my head:

 

Bachmann 2EPB: £119.50

Hornby 2BIL: £123.99

 

I guess there is a £4.49 difference, but it doesn't seem like much to get excited over.

 

Have I just picked the wrong pair of models?

 

Paul

 

Yup,...

 

Would it not be better to compare the Bachmann  4-CEP, with Hornby's  4-VEP ?......No contest,.. IMO

.Or,... Bachmann's continuing output of various DMUs (Including a recently changed, commissioned DEMU), ...versus Hornby's, stuck-in-in-the-mud, products.

 

A severe criticism ?... from my viewpoint ?,...Maybe?...But, That's how I see Hornby,.... at the moment. 

 

Things can, only, get better,....Can't they ???

[Fenman]

Would it not be better to compare the Bachmann  4-CEP, with Hornby's  4-VEP ?......No contest,.. IMO

.Or,... Bachmann's continuing output of various DMUs (Including a recently changed, commissioned DEMU), ...versus Hornby's, stuck-in-in-the-mud, products.

 

 

And now I think you're playing the wrong game! You can't compare DMUs because, as you rightly point out, Hornby haven't produced any.

 

The idea was (I thought) to pick two near-identical products, one from Bachmann and one from Hornby, and to compare the prices. Instead, you have picked what is notoriously a duff Hornby product and compared it to one of the best produced by Bachmann to argue, I guess, that Hornby is just rubbish. Which is a different argument, of course.

 

With the same approach, why couldn't someone pick, I dunno, a Hornby A3 and a Bachmann warmed-over V2; which of those is a cynical attempt to extract maximum cash for minimum manufacturer input?

 

It's not a very helpful argument and it would obviously be a different sort of comparison. We're looking for two very similar products, produced at roughly the same time, so that we can compare whether Hornby is indeed charging "significantly" more than Bachmann. I'm still of the view that the EPB and the 2BIL are broadly similar in terms of quality and timing. And, lo, they are pretty much the same price.

 

Incidentally, RRP of latest Bachmann CEP £170.35.

RRP of latest Hornby VEP £180.99.

Hornby are obviously gouging us out of a "significant" £10.64, or about 6%.

 

Paul

[Ron Ron Ron]

And now I think you're playing the wrong game! You can't compare DMUs because, as you rightly point out, Hornby haven't produced any.....

 

Hornby DMU's?

 

What about the dated and crude Pacer, the rehashed Lima Class 156, the rehashed old Lima Class 101, the done on a budget Class 153. 

 

The reasonable decent, but compromised Class 153 apart, they've been pushing out these dated and relatively crude products over the last few years.

 

 

.

[bigherb]

The 08 shunter is probably a better comparison (not the railroad one)

[Ron Ron Ron]

What about the dated and crude Pacer....

 

I meant the Hornby model, not the even worst real thing !

[Fenman]

Hornby DMU's?

 

What about the dated and crude Pacer, the rehashed Lima Class 156, the rehashed old Lima Class 101, the done on a budget Class 153. 

 

The reasonable decent, but compromised Class 153 apart, they've been pushing out these dated and relatively crude products over the last few years.

 

 

 

I am clearly not explaining myself.

 

The poster to whom I responded stated as fact that Hornby prices are "significantly" higher than their Bachmann equivalents.

 

To test that theory, I suggested finding a product from Hornby that is comparable with a product from Bachmann. Not to pick the crappiest, oldest Hornby product and compare it with the shiniest, newest Bachmann product, or, indeed, vice versa. Just one Bachmann product of the same type and vintage as a Hornby product. And then compare the RRPs.

 

I suggested the EPB and the 2BIL, but apparently these are not "comparable" products (I have both, and I remain of the view that they are broadly comparable).

 

So, if the EPB and 2BIL are not comparable, the question is what are the two products that are largely similar (prototype, quality level, age)?

 

And if we can answer the first question satisfactorily, then we can check whether there is any "significant" price differential.

 

But (this is not directed at you particularly) just using this as an opportunity, again, to slag off ancient Hornby products and to praise new Bachmann ones does not "prove" one way or another whether Hornby are priced at a "significantly" higher level than Bachmann.

 

Paul

[caradoc]

The 08 shunter is probably a better comparison (not the railroad one)

 

Although Hornby have cut their potential sales by probably around 50% through not producing a BR blue version, whereas Bachmann have done two in recent years with a third (as part of a set) about to come. Hornby also do not have a current non-sound BR green version, and IIRC have not produced a black model. Hornby seem to have almost abandoned BR blue period modellers.

[truffy]

Are they "significantly" more? Eg, to take the first thing that came into my head:

 

Bachmann 2EPB: £119.50

Hornby 2BIL: £123.99

 

I guess there is a £4.49 difference, but it doesn't seem like much to get excited over.

 

Have I just picked the wrong pair of models?

 

 

from the photos I'd say that the detailing [of the Bachmann] was superior (roof & grab handles not moulded)

 

 

I'm clearly not playing this game properly, then. Which two models would you consider comparable?

 

 

I suggested finding a product from Hornby that is comparable with a product from Bachmann. Not to pick the crappiest, oldest Hornby product and compare it with the shiniest, newest Bachmann product, or, indeed, vice versa. Just one Bachmann product of the same type and vintage as a Hornby product. And then compare the RRPs.

 

I suggested the EPB and the 2BIL, but apparently these are not "comparable" products (I have both, and I remain of the view that they are broadly comparable).

I didn't suggest that they weren't comparable. Indeed, I think they are, it just depends on how you compare them. You're considering the price of two similar quality comparable products, but another way of looking at it is to consider the quality of two similarly-priced comparable products. In that case, both Bachmann and Hornby have similarly-priced recent EMUs, but the Bachmann is clearly superior in terms of detail. So I'd say that the Hornby is more expensive in terms of bang for buck.

 

As for 'significant', that's a meaningless term in this context. What is significant for one person is not for another. Personally, if Hornby had increased the price of the 2-BIL by 30 drinking tokens, but got it 'right', I would have been OK with that, while others would howl at the significantly increased costs. But, then again, I don't buy a lot of locos.

[truffy]

I think prices are quite high enough. If prices go much higher coupled with falling quality (build, detail etc) we can all guess the consequences.

Saying you don't like higher prices and you are paying enough is like Canute trying to stop the incoming tide. I don't like having to pay more, but it is sadly the way forward.

IMO, you're both right. Prices will increase, it's the way of things. But there's no reason that quality should fall at the same time. If a manufacturer wishes to save costs, in whatever way, that results in a fall in the build quality, it's not realistic that they should then expect the same RRP.

[coachmann]

Two obvious like-for-like candidates are surely the duplicated BR Standard 4 4-6-0's produced simultaneously a few years back.

[truffy]

I was also thinking of the 9f 92220 Evening Star that both companies had out about a year ago. I cannot remember the RRP, but the general consensus was that the Bachmann was a superior model (not that I've seen the Hornby up close, and the Bachy was still a little wanting in cab detail IMO).

[robmcg]

IMO, you're both right. Prices will increase, it's the way of things. But there's no reason that quality should fall at the same time. If a manufacturer wishes to save costs, in whatever way, that results in a fall in the build quality, it's not realistic that they should then expect the same RRP.

 

Someone should promote the attitude which will maintain standards with lower labour input, and call it something catchy, like 'design clever'....