Where are the Hornby models?

[robmcg]

Two obvious like-for-like candidates are surely the duplicated BR Standard 4 4-6-0's produced simultaneously a few years back.

 

Indeed, and there was no clear winner? Or perhaps Hornby was judged better in fine detail. Both very fine models, and the worst thing about the Hornby version, for me, was the awful plug connector which I suppose has been an inevitable thing with DCC and sound being included in design of what might be called a 'transition period' of models... separate tender packaging etc.  Not an issue if you only rarely connect/disconnect the tender. 

[Mike Storey]

Although Hornby have cut their potential sales by probably around 50% through not producing a BR blue version, whereas Bachmann have done two in recent years with a third (as part of a set) about to come. Hornby also do not have a current non-sound BR green version, and IIRC have not produced a black model. Hornby seem to have almost abandoned BR blue period modellers.

 

How very right you are - I discussed this with Simon K at the Peterborough show last year, and he was very dismissive of BR Blue, stating that there were far bigger markets in previous and later eras. He does not seem to be consulting his demographics and Hornby are losing out, exactly as you say. I have been waiting and waiting for the 4VEP in Blue/Grey, of which I have pre-ordered 3 sets. This has now been put back at least another year (albeit with some of the desired improvements, so not just a paint job) but that is more cash they are not getting yet. Bachmann have a far better appreciation of the changing market, as do Heljan and increasingly Dapol.

 

However, I would take issue with an earlier exchange of posts that Hornby's output is invariably of a poorer quality or less realistic than Bachmann - both have models in either camp, and both also have regular vote winners. It is probably Hornby's inability (compared to Bachmann, who are only now having the same problems) to get newer, improved models out to the market over the last couple of years that skews that view.

 

Mike

[neal]

I get the impression that there is a huge pent up demand for new models, exacerbated by lack of supply and looking further back through duplication of models.

 

In the vain hope that Warley will see a bunch of new models (Sentinel, 10001, BR Star, Heljan Railcar, J11 etc) I would predict that trade will be brisk for those who are selling new models.

 

I hope that supplies are sufficient to prevent disappointment for those who attend. I for one will be avoiding the scrum at the NEC and will rely on my local store and web suppliers. It will be a shame if the clamour over new product overshadows the excellent quality of layouts on display.

 

 

 

N

[Mike Storey]

IMO, you're both right. Prices will increase, it's the way of things. But there's no reason that quality should fall at the same time. If a manufacturer wishes to save costs, in whatever way, that results in a fall in the build quality, it's not realistic that they should then expect the same RRP.

 

UK prices are still only about half that which our European partners have to pay, albeit their models tend towards higher specs (but by no means universally), and the German market remains considerably larger than the UK one. Before anyone says it, German people's per capita available spending power is adjudged to be currently amongst the lowest in Europe (lower than the UK), yet the market, although it has slowed, maintains. Very low prices has been a uniquely UK (and US) thing, and we may just have to adjust.

 

Personally, I could not go cold turkey on my modelling, so I would just have to sell my mother-in-law if prices got that bad....

[truffy]

Someone should promote the attitude which will maintain standards with lower labour input, and call it something catchy, like 'design clever'....

Unfortunately Hornby have already tried that. It doesn't work because the standards aren't maintained. QED.

[Legend]

Oops didn't mean to launch a pile of comparisons. But I do stick with my theory that Hornby are significantly more expensive across the range. From large steam locos through dmus (101 ,108 comparison anyone?) through to coaches (Staniers v forthcoming Porthole) through to wagons, where Hornby had to revise prices down due to lack of orders, if I remember correctly.

 

Re pricing and those that can afford it will continue buying hi spec kit, and those that can't will make kits and buy second hand......might it not be that those that can't afford it will be lost to the hobby completely and go off and do something else. There's no shortage of alternatives to spend your cash on these days, including tablet devices that I'm sending this from! Maybe I'll be able to run a train simulator from it soon

[robmcg]

Unfortunately Hornby have already tried that. It doesn't work because the standards aren't maintained. QED.

 

Yes I was being tongue-in-cheek. So far the most obvious decline in quality has been the substitution of separate handrails on the cab of the Star for moulded versions, but since the design and fitting of separate rails on the bunker of the 72XX was poorly done, and the moulded ones on the Star aren't too obvious, I'm not too worried.

 

Bent frames and poor assembly? Jury is still out on that for recent Hornby and Bachmann production. I suspect you will find dissatisfied buyers of both.

[robmcg]

updating...

 

at least, repeating from about 10 days ago

 

The 3rd, and final column, shows the situation as per the Hornby trade website on the evening of November 10th 2013.

 

R1171,      FLIGHT OF THE MALLARD,              14/10/2013       NOW 18/11/2013        NOW 06/12/2013

R1172,      THE e-LINK MAJESTIC CONTROL,        29/10/2013       NOW 25/11/2013        UNCHANGED (25/11/2013)

R2784X,     BR CLASS A4 MALLARD,                29/11/2013       NOW 29/12/2013        NOW 20/12/2013

R2920X,     LNER CLASS B17/1 'SANDRINGHAM',     25/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 25/12/2013

R3019,      BR (LATE) GRANGE CLASS WEATHERED,   06/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 06/12/2013

R3099,      GREEN NRM FLYING SCOTSMAN,          25/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 25/12/2013

R3103,      BR BITTERN DOUBLE TENDER SP ED,     25/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 25/12/2013

R3105,      GWR CASTLE WELLINGTON (S'CHIMNEY),  16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R3114,      BR (LATE) B1 61270,                 06/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 06/12/2013

R3115,      BR UNREBUILT WEST COUNTRY EXETER,   16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R3118,      BR CASTLE 'PENRICE CASTLE',         09/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 09/12/2013

R3124,      BR CLASS 42XX 4266,                 04/10/2013       Now 21/10/2013        NOW 02/12/2013

R3125,      GWR CLASS 52 XX # 5274,             04/10/2013       Now 02/12/2013        UNCHANGED 02/12/2013

R3127,      GWR CLASS 72XX #7202,               04/10/2013       Now 21/10/2013        NOW 02/12/2013

R3127X,     GWR CLASS 72XX DCC FITTED # 7202,   28/10/2013       Now 02/12/2013        UNCHANGED 02/12/2013

R3128,      BR CLASS 72XX # 7229,               04/10/2013       Now 02/12/2013        UNCHANGED 02/12/2013

R3133,      EAST COAST MAINLINE TRAIN PACK,     16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R3138,      BR HST WESTERN REGION,              16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R3160XS,    BR LATE 'WINCANTON' WEST COUNTRY,   16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R3161A,     SR 2 BIL 2 CAR EMU TRAIN PACK,      14/11/2013       Now 20/12/2013        UNCHANGED 20/12/2013

R3161AX,    SR 2 BIL 2 CAR EMU TRAIN PACK,      18/11/2013       Now 20/12/2013        UNCHANGED 20/12/2013

R3162A,     BR 2 BIL 2 CAR EMU TRAIN PACK,      07/11/2013       Now 20/12/2013        UNCHANGED 20/12/2013

R3162AX,    BR 2 BIL 2 CAR EMU TRAIN PACK,      08/11/2013       Now 20/12/2013        UNCHANGED 20/12/2013

R3166,      GWR KNIGHT OF THE GRAND CROSS,      21/10/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 2/12/2013

R3166X,     GWR KNIGHT OF THE GRAND CROSS,      28/10/2013       Now 02/12/2013        UNCHANGED 2/12/2013

R3167,      BR GLASTONBURY ABBEY 4000 CLASS,    04/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 18/11/2013      

R3167X,     BR GLASTONBURY ABBEY 4000 CLASS,    04/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 18/11/2013   

R3168,      DUKE OF GLOUCESTER 4-6-2,           22/11/2013       Now 16/12/2013        UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R3178,      NCB PO 0-4-0 SENTINEL,              25/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 29/11/2013

R3179,      ESSO SENTINEL 0-4-0 SENTINEL,       18/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 29/11/2013

R3180,      TARMAC 0-4-0 SENTINEL,              18/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 29/11/2013

R3185,      SOUTHERN CLASS 395  TRAIN PACK,     21/10/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 13/12/2013

R3191,      BR CL8 SP ED DUKE OF GLOUCESTER,    09/12/2013       Now 16/12/2013        UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R3192,      HERITAGE RAIL EXPRESS TRAIN PACK,   09/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 09/12/2013

R3196,      THE GATHERING MALLARD,              01/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R3197,      THE GATHERING DOMINION OF CANADA,   18/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R3198,      THE GATHERING UNION OF SOUTH AFRI,  25/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R3199,      THE GATHERING BITTERN,              11/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R3200,      THE GATHERING DWIGHT EISENHOWER,    25/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R3201,      THE GATHERING SIR NIGEL GRESLEY,    02/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 02/12/2013

R4333,      LNER TEAK BRAKE,                    02/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R4350,      BR Mk1 COMPOSITE R/ROAD COACH,      11/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 25/11/2013

R4351,      BR Mk1 3RD CLASS R/ROAD COACH,      11/11/2013  UNCHANGED           NOW RELEASED

R4352,      BR Mk1 BRAKE 3RD R/ROAD COACH,      11/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 14/11/2013

R4353,      BR Mk1 COMPOSITE R/ROAD COACH,      04/11/2013  UNCHANGED           NOW RELEASED

R4354,      BR Mk1 3RD CLASS R/ROAD COACH,      28/10/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R4355,      BR Mk1 BRAKE 3RD R/ROAD COACH,      28/10/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 25/11/2013

R4518A,     LNER GRESLEY SURBURBAN 3RD BRAKE,   11/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R4522A,     BR  GRESLEY SURBURBAN 3RD BRAKE,    01/10/2013       Now 11/11/2013 RELEASED, FURTHER BATCH 02/12/2013

R4531B,     BR 61'6 (inch) FULL BRAKE,          28/10/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 13/12/2013

R4531C,     LNER GRESLEY FULL BRAKE #2,         28/10/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 13/12/2013

R4534A,     BR PUSH PULL COACH PACK,            25/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 25/11/2013

R4534B,     BR PUSH PULL COACH PACK,            25/11/2013       Now 09/12/2013        UNCHANGED 09/12/2013

R4536B,     BR BOGIE PASSENGER BRAKE VAN,       18/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R4540,      EAST COAST MAINLINE 1ST CLASS MK4,  29/10/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 20/12/2013

R4542,      EAST COAST MAINLINE BUFFET CAR,     29/10/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 20/12/2013

R4566,      BR EX LNER 61'6” CORRIDOR BRAKE,    28/10/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R4585,      BR BOGIE PASSENGER BR BLUE,         18/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R4586,      BR BOGIE PASSENGER BR RED,          18/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R6577,      PRESTWICH TARMACADAM 4 PLANK,       16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R6579,      THE NEWMARKET CO-OP 4 PLANK,        16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R6581,      MORECOMBE ELECTRICITY DEPT 4 PLK,   16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R6586,      CAMBRIAN WAGON WORKS 21 TON WAGON,  12/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 20/12/2013

R6588,      5 PLK WAGON EDWIN W. BADLAND,       16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R6592,      4 PLK WAGON FLEETWOOD IND CO-OP,    16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R6597,      5 PLK WAGON HOPTON-WOOD STONE,      16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R6623,      BR HORSE BOX EX GWR,                16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 20/12/2013

R6624,      BR 12 TON FISH VAN X3,              18/11/2013       Now 09/12/2013        UNCHANGED 09/12/2013

R6638,      BR 12 TON FISH VAN,                 18/11/2013       Now 09/12/2013        UNCHANGED 09/12/2013

R6638A,     BR 12 TON FISH VAN,                 18/11/2013       Now 09/12/2013        UNCHANGED 09/12/2013

R6639,      BR 12 PARCELS VAN SPVA,             11/11/2013       Now 09/12/2013        UNCHANGED 09/12/2013

R6640,      LMS 4 WHEEL CCT VAN,                18/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R6640A,     LMS 4 WHEEL CCT VAN,                18/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  NOW 02/12/2013

R6641,      BR 4 WHEEL CCT VAN,                 25/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 25/11/2013

R6641A,     BR 4 WHEEL CCT VAN,                 25/11/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 25/11/2013

R6644,      Hornby 2013 WAGON,                  16/12/2013  UNCHANGED                  UNCHANGED 16/12/2013

R8312,      E-LINK + RAILMASTER + 1 Amp PSU,    11/11/2013       Now 02/12/2013        UNCHANGED 02/12/2013

 

 

Whilst many dates remain unchanged, most of these are already in December, and often later in the month when the Hornby Christmas shutdown will already be in force.

 

There are few releases for November, and I await an official notice from Margate to tell us which of the above will miss Christmas and arrive in 2014. We retailers need to let our customers know what Santa will not be bringing them!

 

And the last despatch day from Margate will be Friday 20th December which should arrive on Monday 23rd, then there will be no deliveries until the New Year.

[truffy]

So far the most obvious decline in quality has been the substitution of separate handrails on the cab of the Star for moulded versions,

IMO, the most obvious decline in quality is the moulded grab handles and driver/guard rails on the 2-BIL. To the point where I'm contemplating replacing them with brass.

 

YMMV

[Ceptic]

No sign of the R3184 1960s Brighton Belle Train Pack + R4582 '60s B/B Pullman Car Pack, in any of those lists.....Quietly dropped ??

 

P.S. Or the R3143 B/G 4-VEP !

[brushman47544]

No sign of the R3184 1960s Brighton Belle Train Pack + R4582 '60s B/B Pullman Car Pack, in any of those lists.....Quietly dropped ??

 

P.S. Or the R3143 B/G 4-VEP !

 

These have been advised as for 2014 for some time now, whereas the list posted seems to be limited to those models still listed by Hornby for 2013 delivery.

 

It remains to be seen which models will arrive in time for Christmas, but since it is now 20 November and it takes about 4 weeks for a container to arrive from China by sea, anything that will be available should already have been manufactured if not already en route. At this time of year at least, in view of the importance of Christmas for sales, you would expect Hornby to have a pretty good idea what has been manufactured and has time to arrive by sea and whether there are any models that will be ready imminently that it would be worthwhile shipping by air - train sets in particular have traditionally sold best at Christmas and might hang around rather a long time (and/or need to be discounted) if they don't arrive until the New Year.

[jonathan452]

updating...

 

at least, repeating from about 10 days ago

 

--------------------------------- List removed from this quote for clarity.

 

Whilst many dates remain unchanged, most of these are already in December, and often later in the month when the Hornby Christmas shutdown will already be in force.

 

There are few releases for November, and I await an official notice from Margate to tell us which of the above will miss Christmas and arrive in 2014. We retailers need to let our customers know what Santa will not be bringing them!

 

And the last despatch day from Margate will be Friday 20th December which should arrive on Monday 23rd, then there will be no deliveries until the New Year.

In light of current circumstances perhapes Hornby should reconsider having a Christmas shutdown.

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

 

We retailers need to let our customers know what Santa will not be bringing them!

 

 

If Santa only brings presents to those that are deserving and have not been naughty, I reckon there will be a few worried faces about.

[Adams442T]

In light of current circumstances perhapes Hornby should reconsider having a Christmas shutdown.

 

How would we know the difference.....................

[micklner]

In light of current circumstances perhapes Hornby should reconsider having a Christmas shutdown.

Another one!!  they have already had a six month break this year :jester:

[andytrains]

Hornby's Christmas shutdown should go ahead as it will not affect what is in the country or not at that particular time. (Unless all the other chains of supply before then cancel Christmas. I think not).

I have heard today that another major RTR manufacturer will be doing their stocktake in the first week back at work in January, so with their last dispatching date before is about a week before Christmas, this means that their next delivery slots will be the middle of January.

 

I have found the answer to all our problems.

Bit controversial, but build a kit.

 

We could start a new thread:- 'Rather Than Buy a RTR Model Build One For 2014'.

(Don't think it will catch one though).

[andytrains]

By the Way. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!

[andytrains]

Micklner, see post 671 or is it Bah Humbug?

[Sasquatch]

Something new in from Hornby right now are the BR insulfish vans and apart from the moulded door handles they look quite impressive and at 9 quid a pop i'm impressed as this is new tooling. When compared to the LNER conflat at 12 Pounds which is a 30-40 year old model thats not to be complaind at. I think someone at Hornby just might be listening. 

 

So who's gonna be exited to get thier Christmas email from them this year?

 

[Ozexpatriate]

Oops didn't mean to launch a pile of comparisons. But I do stick with my theory that Hornby are significantly more expensive across the range.

Separate from inconsistent pricing, which is rampant at Hornby, I don't think that based on the data that theory holds up.

 

I've provided examples before somewhere (I can't think where and I don't feel like making a pile of comparisons either) but let's look at the Tornado:

 

Bachmann:

Class A1 60163 'Tornado' BR Lined Brunswick Green ........................................... 32-550B ... £150.60

Class A1 60163 'Tornado' BR Express Blue ........................................................... 32-550C ... £150.60

 

Hornby:

4-6-2 'Tornado' Peppercorn Class A1 Special Edition ............................................... R3098 ... £119.99

4-6-2 'Tornado' Peppercorn Class A1 - British Railways Express Passenger Blue .... R3206 ... £122.99

RailRoad 4-6-2 'Tornado' Peppercorn Class A1 ........................................................ R3060 .... £82.49

 

I didn't cherry pick this to prove a point. Tornado was the first one I thought of that both manufactures have in their current range for a like versus like comparison.

 

I think if you look at data instead of gut instinct I think the average will show a lot of pricing parity between the brands for relatively new tooling. Some of the older split chassis Bachmann models are cheaper.

[andyman7]

I was also thinking of the 9f 92220 Evening Star that both companies had out about a year ago. I cannot remember the RRP, but the general consensus was that the Bachmann was a superior model (not that I've seen the Hornby up close, and the Bachy was still a little wanting in cab detail IMO).

Probably not the best example as the Hornby model is in the Railroad range at a much lower price than the Bachmann model, and is actually pretty good to boot, so in this case there is a clear correlation between price and specification .   

[Mike Storey]

Hornby's Christmas shutdown should go ahead as it will not affect what is in the country or not at that particular time. (Unless all the other chains of supply before then cancel Christmas. I think not).

I have heard today that another major RTR manufacturer will be doing their stocktake in the first week back at work in January, so with their last dispatching date before is about a week before Christmas, this means that their next delivery slots will be the middle of January.

 

I have found the answer to all our problems.

Bit controversial, but build a kit.

 

We could start a new thread:- 'Rather Than Buy a RTR Model Build One For 2014'.

(Don't think it will catch one though).

 

Great suggestion, and I have in production all I can find. But the remaining kits I need are either:

 

a) not available from anybody, of any kind, at all, (e.g. JXA/POA SRA Steel scrap 102t bogies, either type; Cartic or Autic sets (I think Kernow had a supplier for the former but where have they gone?); transfers for MAT (Mainland Auto Transport) which owned/ran many of the Cartics originally; TTA coned wagons for China Clay transport (although I think Bachmann are close to issuing something near to those which I can bash) plus STS rail leasing company transfers) and are much too difficult for me to scratchbuild, or

 

b) out of production with no future production date shown

 

If anyone knows of sources for those in (a) which I have missed, please shout!

 

Can someone please buy Appleby Engineering's patterns/moulds/patents/IP or whatever and produce them again, together with a website on which you could buy them (or at least see what was available)....!!!! Great kits but easier to find out secrets in the Pentagon apparently - perhaps Wikileaks can help?

[Legend]

How very right you are - I discussed this with Simon K at the Peterborough show last year, and he was very dismissive of BR Blue, stating that there were far bigger markets in previous and later eras. He does not seem to be consulting his demographics and Hornby are losing out, exactly as you say. I have been waiting and waiting for the 4VEP in Blue/Grey, of which I have pre-ordered 3 sets. This has now been put back at least another year (albeit with some of the desired improvements, so not just a paint job) but that is more cash they are not getting yet. Bachmann have a far better appreciation of the changing market, as do Heljan and increasingly Dapol.

 

However, I would take issue with an earlier exchange of posts that Hornby's output is invariably of a poorer quality or less realistic than Bachmann - both have models in either camp, and both also have regular vote winners. It is probably Hornby's inability (compared to Bachmann, who are only now having the same problems) to get newer, improved models out to the market over the last couple of years that skews that view.

 

Mike

Simon Kohler is seriously out of touch with the BR Blue era. I doubt he understands it at all. Evidence: countless class 50s in large logo but never a 56 till this year, and I think I'm right in saying it has yet to appear . Now hands up anyone what would be the most popular 4Vep. Yes Blue and Grey , but yet again we have to wait. It goes down to finer details......a blue and grey 101 anyone........err no it sports quite an unusual type of front end compared to the more usual plated head code two lights version. Under his tenure Hornby has surrendered the BR Blue market to Bachmann who have coined it in. 08 (I challenge you to find a Hornby one in standard Blue) 20,24,25,37,40,44,45,46,47,55 ,105,108,derby lightweight......nah clearly no money in it!.

[truffy]

Probably not the best example as the Hornby model is in the Railroad range at a much lower price than the Bachmann model, and is actually pretty good to boot, so in this case there is a clear correlation between price and specification .

There were two models, one Railroad the other not (whatever the non-Railraod range is called).

 

Actually at the time there were three models going, Railroad, 'normal' and a special mugs-only limited edition to celebrate 40 years of something. It's still available!

[Legend]

Separate from inconsistent pricing, which is rampant at Hornby, I don't think that based on the data that theory holds up.I've provided examples before somewhere (I can't think where and I don't feel like making a pile of comparisons either) but let's look at the Tornado:Bachmann:Class A1 60163 'Tornado' BR Lined Brunswick Green ........................................... 32-550B ... £150.60Class A1 60163 'Tornado' BR Express Blue ........................................................... 32-550C ... £150.60Hornby:4-6-2 'Tornado' Peppercorn Class A1 Special Edition ............................................... R3098 ... £119.994-6-2 'Tornado' Peppercorn Class A1 - British Railways Express Passenger Blue .... R3206 ... £122.99RailRoad 4-6-2 'Tornado' Peppercorn Class A1 ........................................................ R3060 .... £82.49I didn't cherry pick this to prove a point. Tornado was the first one I thought of that both manufactures have in their current range for a like versus like comparison.I think if you look at data instead of gut instinct I think the average will show a lot of pricing parity between the brands for relatively new tooling. Some of the older split chassis Bachmann models are cheaper.

Fair point Oz, but Tornado was introduced to capitalise on the popularity of the real thing and was deliberately priced and spec'ed in the Railroad range to appeal to the wider market. The Bachmann one is more representative of an original A2 and much more detailed. So I don't agree with that comparson.