Traeth Mawr -Building Mr Price's house , (mostly)

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris, good to see progress on Big Beach 

 

That toast rack looks good, if I remember correctly it is not an easyu job to make the seats fit. The T49 looks very neat. Shirescenes really must be applauded for not only keeping this range going, but also expanding it.

 

Mikkel,

I sort of half cheated with the seats as they are straight sided which makes it easier and hopefully will hold the glazing in.  On the T49 it will have to fit exactly as it needs the bracing but also, probably due to me not reading/understanding the instructions the sides need something to secure them to the floor.  I made a bit of a bodge inside, which is why I made a new floor for the T20 that was slightly longer. 

 

The guy who owned Shire Scenes sold it on and it was this new guy Robin who then expanded it.  The last thing I heard was that he was doing an F1 slip coach but that was a few years ago so I am not sure we will ever see it.  It is now sold and marketed by Dart Castings.  I like the range as it is an easy introduction into using brass.

 

There is an old composite which is apparently 'all wrong' in its dimensions which I will do at some time which will join the other through coaches.

 

Hope you are well.

[ChrisN]

I am afraid no modelling has been done for ages, although I have loaded another file into my Silhouette program, this time a 4w GWR Saloon, and have thought about what Cambrian coach diagrams I should get from HMRS to copy as well.  There may be light at the end of the tunnel but do not hold your breath.

 

Now I have been building the GWR coaches for the train from Ruabon.  This will appear at the end of the day as yet another variation in coaching stock and the theory is that it will be pulled by whatever is the usual Cambrian engine.  (I have bought a Tenshodo spud to see if it could motorise a tender and of course bought the wrong size!  When I have my layout up again I can at least use it to see if it is possible.)  However, Cambrian engines may be a little way off.

 

While I was on holiday I came across a book on the Ruabon to Dolgelley line.  This had a picture of a GWR 645 saddle tank.  My wife said did I want the book but it was the only picture that was useful so £30.00 for one picture I thought was too much.  However, why not a 645?  Well mainly because there are no kits for it.  But there is a Shapeways body for a 1701 or general saddle tank.  How much different is it from this?  Yes, I know all the fittings are different but the kit comes without any.  It does have two panels on the top not the one but maybe filler and scribing would do the trick.  The photo I saw was the rebuild with the tank all the way along the boiler.

 

The advantage is that it sits on an R-T-R chassis and if it was bought as a Christmas present it might get done in a short space of time, well at least running un-primed at without fittings for a while.  What I have not found out yet is the wheelbase so that might sink it all. 

 

So is it worth a go?  If I do it and only take photos that are blurry and at a distance, (yes I have seen it done), would anyone notice?  Would I be allowed to go to Didcot again if they knew who I was?

Answers on a postcard please.

 

If you have been, thanks for looking.

[Northroader]

Why not? Those tank engines were much of a muchness, and engines of the same class could have variations in such things as bunkers for instance, making them look as different as if they were another class, if you follow me. The RCTS book on this section of the GWR locos acknowledges this by mixing the illustrations of the differing classes just as the variations developed, rather than keeping the illustrations in sections for each class, as they do for every other GWR loco.

So get it, match the fittings where you’re able, and enjoy.

[Northroader]

Just for the sayso, I dug out said book, and compared the two classes. The 645 forms part of the Wolverhampton large tanks group, the 1854 etc one of the Swindon tanks. Wheel sizesand wheelbases are identical, the 645s are an inch shorter on front overhang, and 1’3” shorter on rear overhang. Saddle tanks varied on the number of courses, six seems the commonest for both classes with full length tanks, which is one we’re looking at, but four and five courses were also used. For what’s involved, I don’t think it’s worth being too precious about it?

Edit: looking in the class notes, it says frames were lengthened at the back, so is the figure I gave the original length? Try and check that tomorrow, I’m off to bed now.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Northroader

[ChrisN]

Just for the sayso, I dug out said book, and compared the two classes. The 645 forms part of the Wolverhampton large tanks group, the 1854 etc one of the Swindon tanks. Wheel sizesand wheelbases are identical, the 645s are an inch shorter on front overhang, and 1’3” shorter on rear overhang. Saddle tanks varied on the number of courses, six seems the commonest for both classes with full length tanks, which is one we’re looking at, but four and five courses were also used. For what’s involved, I don’t think it’s worth being too precious about it?

Edit: looking in the class notes, it says frames were lengthened at the back, so is the figure I gave the original length? Try and check that tomorrow, I’m off to bed now.

 

Thank you.  At least I have one railway item to put on my Christmas list.  Looking at the photos the whistles seem to be the same height on the 645 but that may be an illusion.  I need to source the large dome and the chimney.  Well it will be my first complete period train.

[Anotheran]

Hi Chris,

 

I asked myself the same question on the 645 class as the eponymous 645 was itself a regular at Newcastle Emlyn being logged there in two of my chosen time frames 1896 and 1906. I have, therefore, purchased the 3D print mentioned together with a chassis and various bits and pieces that will go to make up the finished model... and I've got no further yet!

 

Like 766 (built 1873), 645 (build 1872) was one of the original 645 class (as opposed to the 1501 class that became grouped into 645 after both classes went through rebuilds). But that does mean that both were built with short U5b saddle tanks and only received the full length U3e tanks during a rebuild. I'm assuming from the RCTS book that this was during the first rebuild (1894 for 645 and 1893 for 766) as the second rebuilds were 1913 and 1910 respectively which would be too late for both you and I to use the 3D print on our layouts. While I am planning to shorten the bunker there is no chance of me successfully shortening the tanks and building a scratch smokebox! So even if someone tells me that it was indeed the 1913 rebuild I'll be changing history and making it 1894. I think I'm on fairly safe ground through as 645 sported pannier tanks from 1914 and I can't imagine them replacing a saddle tank that was less than a year old.

 

As you've pointed out the print has a U5 tank so will need filling, sanding and scribing to make it into the 3 panel U3e. But the finish of the tanks is a little angular so there is already a need for quite a bit of filling, priming and sanding anyway to get a good surface. So the fact that we don't need the existing panel outlines makes getting a good surface easier.

 

I have to say I'm looking forward to the build, though the livery with the darker pre-1928 middle chrome green, Indian Red frames and lining (as per the 517 loco seen on this page) gives me some trepidation. But it is my favourite livery and the reason why I've chosen 1906 as my second time frame instead of something a little later... I can run the same livery in both 1896 and 1906 as I can't imagine everything running on a small branch in mid-Wales being altered to the 1906 livery in the first few months of it becoming the standard. Having said that I do intend a mix of liveries for 1906... but it's my train set.

 

With my rate of progress though your Christmas build will be finished before I've opened the box to have a second look at the content. So I look forward to seeing it arrive!

 

Kind regards, Neil

[Northroader]

I tried to get some more sense out of the RCTS book, but they’re very coy about how many were rebuilt with longer frames, and when it was done. In Jim Russell’s book, there’s a drawing of a 645 in original condition, and a Swindon diagram of one with a Belpaire boiler and pannier tanks, both with the short rear overhang. It just gives a bunker that’s 9” shorter than the Swindon ones, which to me wouldn’t be the end of the world. The other comment about visual differences is that the running plate angle (the “valance”) isn’t so deep on a Wolves engine as a Swindon engine. I’m still thinking it will be a great Christmas pressie.

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris,

 

I asked myself the same question on the 645 class as the eponymous 645 was itself a regular at Newcastle Emlyn being logged there in two of my chosen time frames 1896 and 1906. I have, therefore, purchased the 3D print mentioned together with a chassis and various bits and pieces that will go to make up the finished model... and I've got no further yet!

 

Like 766 (built 1873), 645 (build 1872) was one of the original 645 class (as opposed to the 1501 class that became grouped into 645 after both classes went through rebuilds). But that does mean that both were built with short U5b saddle tanks and only received the full length U3e tanks during a rebuild. I'm assuming from the RCTS book that this was during the first rebuild (1894 for 645 and 1893 for 766) as the second rebuilds were 1913 and 1910 respectively which would be too late for both you and I to use the 3D print on our layouts. While I am planning to shorten the bunker there is no chance of me successfully shortening the tanks and building a scratch smokebox! So even if someone tells me that it was indeed the 1913 rebuild I'll be changing history and making it 1894. I think I'm on fairly safe ground through as 645 sported pannier tanks from 1914 and I can't imagine them replacing a saddle tank that was less than a year old.

 

As you've pointed out the print has a U5 tank so will need filling, sanding and scribing to make it into the 3 panel U3e. But the finish of the tanks is a little angular so there is already a need for quite a bit of filling, priming and sanding anyway to get a good surface. So the fact that we don't need the existing panel outlines makes getting a good surface easier.

 

I have to say I'm looking forward to the build, though the livery with the darker pre-1928 middle chrome green, Indian Red frames and lining (as per the 517 loco seen on this page) gives me some trepidation. But it is my favourite livery and the reason why I've chosen 1906 as my second time frame instead of something a little later... I can run the same livery in both 1896 and 1906 as I can't imagine everything running on a small branch in mid-Wales being altered to the 1906 livery in the first few months of it becoming the standard. Having said that I do intend a mix of liveries for 1906... but it's my train set.

 

With my rate of progress though your Christmas build will be finished before I've opened the box to have a second look at the content. So I look forward to seeing it arrive!

 

Kind regards, Neil

 

Neil,

Thank you.  Could you tell what bits you have purchased please as that is the next thing to do, to find the right chimney, dome and whistles?  I have seen this picture at the bottom of the page which I think is a 645, and one in a book on the Ruabon to Dolgelley Railway which is of 772 and both look to be early enough for 1895.  Given that it was 22 years after entering service and they were building the 1501s from 1878 with full length tanks I think I can assume that it had a full length tank in 1895.  The only short length tank I have seen a picture of was of 1811 which was from the last batch.  Mine will be in Wolverhampton livery if and when it ever gets painted.  It may for a while run in 'Ghost White' if the railway actually goes back up, so it may not be done before yours is.  I will have to look at shortening the bunker, this picture might help.

 

I have ordered a Railroad Pannier which I think has the same chassis but is in stock but due to a glitch in the website I now have two coming.  Looks as though my grandson will get another loco for Christmas.  I will wait for an offer at Shapeways before ordering I think even though it is cheaper than a lot I have seen.

[ChrisN]

I tried to get some more sense out of the RCTS book, but they’re very coy about how many were rebuilt with longer frames, and when it was done. In Jim Russell’s book, there’s a drawing of a 645 in original condition, and a Swindon diagram of one with a Belpaire boiler and pannier tanks, both with the short rear overhang. It just gives a bunker that’s 9” shorter than the Swindon ones, which to me wouldn’t be the end of the world. The other comment about visual differences is that the running plate angle (the “valance”) isn’t so deep on a Wolves engine as a Swindon engine. I’m still thinking it will be a great Christmas pressie.

 

Thank you for looking. I am sure 3mm between friends on the wrong loco body will be fine.  I will look at the running plate angle and see if it needs changing. 

[ChrisN]

Well I appear to be attracting more followers by not posting which is a bit strange and maybe is a sign that it should continue that way. 

 

I have had very little time to do much modelling, (get off RMWeb and get on with it I hear you shout), certainly not enough to post with a photo.

 

I have though been given a spray gun, an air rifle, an air brush.  A friend of mine just turned up with it one day.  Her dad was a railway modellor and bought it new just before he died a few years ago and her mum suddenly wanted to get rid of it.  Another skill to learn.

 

My wife asked me what I wanted for Christmas so I said a Silhouette Cameo.  Well, there is a large box under the tree.

 

I also ordered 13 diagrams of Cambrian Coaches from HMRS so which I have nine so far from my sons for Christmas, plus some 10 thou plasticard.

 

I bought myself the Shapeways 815 saddle Tank that I am going to make as a 645.  I am not sure when although I do have the pannier tank to go under it.  (I bought two, the other, along with a Toad break van is for my grandson.)  (Grandson:  "Granddad, why is it called a Toad?"  Me:  "It is always at the back and so is always...……….  Towed.)  Moving swiftly on, I am not sure what fittings I should use for the 645.  The dome appears larger than the 815 and the whistles appear the same length.  It will need a fair amount of sanding or filling to make it round.

 

So, lots to do, not sure when I will get to do it though.  (I have another machine to accept so as the last time I did any real modelling was when I was accepting the last ones maybe, just maybe...………)

 

 

So the point of this post before it is too late is

 

 

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

[Donw]

good to hear from you. Best wishes for 2019.

 

Don

[NCB]

All the coach plans I have so far are from the NRM OPC collection. Hadn't really thought about HMRS, although most of my loco drawings come from there. Must take a look; sometime in 2019 I want to make a start on coaches (3mm/ft scale); I have a few D&S bogie coach kits, but need more. Thanks for the pointer.

 

Merry Christmas to all and may all your sidings fill up.

 

Nigel

Edited December 25, 2018 by NCB

[ChrisN]

All the coach plans I have so far are from the NRM OPC collection. Hadn't really thought about HMRS, although most of my loco drawings come from there. Must take a look; sometime in 2019 I want to make a start on coaches (3mm/ft scale); I have a few D&S bogie coach kits, but need more. Thanks for the pointer.

 

Merry Christmas to all and may all your sidings fill up.

 

Nigel

 

Nigel,

I intend to convert all the drawings to Silhouette files, so if you need any when they are done I will let anyone who asks have them.  I have mainly six wheel coaches as the bogie coaches are a bit late for me although they do have some drawings of them.

[corneliuslundie]

I came across this official GWR drawing recently and thought of Traeth Mawr. Built in the 1880s and having a coupé compartment each end, all three classes and a luggage compartment. How about it as a through coach to Traeth Mawr from :Paddington?

If you fancy building one I can let you have a higher resolution file.

Jonathan

 

[ChrisN]

Jonathan,

This looks brilliant.  Does it have an 'E' number?  I have the Slaters E36 (?) kit which is tri-composite and I have a number of old Triang Clerestories which I am going to make into other ones.  However, I need at least two tri-composites from London, one coming up, one going back so  this looks to be the part, so yes I would have a go at making it.  I see that only the First Class get a Toilet if they are lucky, the rest, as my friend used to say, have to cross their legs and pray for a station.  (Actually of course it is turn and turn about with a Cambrian Coach but, of course I think two come up, one goes back to Paddington, the other Birmingham.)

 

The problem with cutting up Triang coaches is that there are at best two widths of compartment when there should be three so going from a diagram like this would be so much better.  I am working on a four wheel GWR Saloon, G41, so I should have the right windows and panels to cut and paste. 

 

I get so excited at Christmas about what is possible when people buy me stuff.  The reality is that time to do it is not that much but we will get there. 

[corneliuslundie]

According to what Jack Slinn wrote on the drawing it is E25. I am pretty confident that that is correct. The E36 will be rather later, 1892 as far as I can see, Lot 630, though Harris has E? and E35 against that lot. But Jack has written E36 on the Lot 630 drawing. I can let you have a copy of that too if you like.

Jonathan

[ChrisN]

According to what Jack Slinn wrote on the drawing it is E25. I am pretty confident that that is correct. The E36 will be rather later, 1892 as far as I can see, Lot 630, though Harris has E? and E35 against that lot. But Jack has written E36 on the Lot 630 drawing. I can let you have a copy of that too if you like.

Jonathan

 

Jonathan,

This gets even better, thank you.  I need some through GWR coaches from Manchester and Birkenhead.  I have on my list the E25 already but the only information I have about it is a picture from GWR Short Coach website.  This states 7 compartments and the fact that the end ones are coupés is not clear so a diagram and a coach from a file would be miles better. 

 

Many, many pages back Mike Oxen magnified an image of a train on the Barmouth Bridge and there were a couple of interesting things from it.  One, it was the middle of the day, (Please do not ask me to justify that now, I cannot remember, but if I insist it must be true,   ), and this means that the through coach in it was bound for Birmingham.  Having magnified it up and I think Mike took the perspective out of it and the coach was either an E35 or 36.  So, photographic evidence, of a sorts, that they were at Traeth Mawr.  What more could I want?  Absolutely brilliant!

[drduncan]

Hi Chris,

Looking at the train formations on the North & west route I think you’ll need brake composites/tri-composites for through coach traffic rather than the ordinary variety. Unfortunately they all come with an E diag no...

 

The brake tri comp drawing Jonathan posted looks just the thing though.

 

If you do a drawing for cutting/ build the coach I’d be very interested in how you do it.

 

Regards and merry Xmas.

 

Duncan

[ChrisN]

Hi Chris,

Looking at the train formations on the North & west route I think you’ll need brake composites/tri-composites for through coach traffic rather than the ordinary variety. Unfortunately they all come with an E diag no...

 

The brake tri comp drawing Jonathan posted looks just the thing though.

 

If you do a drawing for cutting/ build the coach I’d be very interested in how you do it.

 

Regards and merry Xmas.

 

Duncan

 

Duncan,

Thank you that is very helpful.  As I have said there is a picture somewhere on this thread, (I am afraid the index has had no work done on it recently), showing what I think is an E36 or similar.  I had intended to use six wheel composites as through coaches from Manchester Exchange and Birkenhead as I ran out of Es and why have two coaches the same if you can help it?  If I have a composite without a brake then I may add a brake as well.  I just need enough siding space to store them.  Ummm.

 

I have started to build some MSLR coaches using a cutter a few pages back but modelling has stalled and I am working on some Ratio/ Shire Scenes GWR coaches at the moment.  However, I do have files for two Cambrian, no three Cambrian Saloons, and am working on GWR G41 saloon.  The technique will be the same, except, oh yes except, that I have noticed that the window frames on GWR coaches, the red bits, are er, very interesting.  I need to look at some model coaches or go to Didcot and look at the real things as they appear to have raised surrounds.  This might be awkward and I am thinking about this at the moment. 

 

You say the train formations for the North and West...…    Where do you find that information.  I did start another thread and the answer was a book but I think the formations in it are probably late 1930s.

[Donw]

Ah GWR window Bolections. It may be possible to represent them with a thick bead of paint.

 

Don

[drduncan]

[quote name="ChrisN" post="3410803" timestamp="1545780616"

 

You say the train formations for the North and West...…    Where do you find that information.  I did start another thread and the answer was a book but I think the formations in it are probably late 1930s.

 

I went to the national archives at Kew and looked at the GWR documents on the working of through carriages for several years in the period 1900-1914 to get info on how the North and west route between Hereford and Shrewsbury operated for a club layout, but the layout leader clearly didn’t like the answers. I keep meaning to tart up my notes for the GWSG but never get round to it..,

 

D

[drduncan]

Of course through coaches we’re different from excursion working which, according to the GWR flyers I saw at Kew, all seemed to be 3rd class only.

 

So even more options depending on the type of service you want!

D

[Mikkel]

A belated merry christmas to you Chris. I trust the good staff at Traeth Mawr are enjoying the celebrations.

 

The new aquisitions sound interesting. I look forward to seeing how the 1854 ST from Shapeways turns out, it's always interesting to see that new media being tested. As for that large parcel under the tree, did it turn out to be a Cameo or was a it a food processor? 

[ChrisN]

I went to the national archives at Kew and looked at the GWR documents on the working of through carriages for several years in the period 1900-1914 to get info on how the North and west route between Hereford and Shrewsbury operated for a club layout, but the layout leader clearly didn’t like the answers. I keep meaning to tart up my notes for the GWSG but never get round to it..,

 

D

 

 

Of course through coaches we’re different from excursion working which, according to the GWR flyers I saw at Kew, all seemed to be 3rd class only.

 

So even more options depending on the type of service you want!

D

 

Duncan,

Thank you, it looks like I need a trip to Kew then.

[ChrisN]

A belated merry christmas to you Chris. I trust the good staff at Traeth Mawr are enjoying the celebrations.

 

The new aquisitions sound interesting. I look forward to seeing how the 1854 ST from Shapeways turns out, it's always interesting to see that new media being tested. As for that large parcel under the tree, did it turn out to be a Cameo or was a it a food processor? 

 

Mikkel,

No it was definitely a Cameo.  "Oh," said my wife,"it can be used for crafts as well can it?"  This was despite me telling her that before it was bought.  I can see that I will be doing stuff for her on it. (Our church runs Community Events where there are crafts for children to do.)

 

I have not plugged it in yet as there is not a permanent home for it.  I need to get to the corner of RMWeb where Cameos are discussed for tips.

 

A Belated Merry Christmas to you.  Hope your move went well.