Dawlish Diversion Route

[bgman]

Okehampton needs a funicular from town to station!!

It'd be better than nothing ( like Tavistock) surely it could benefit both towns in the long run ?

I'm on the Tarka Line and it is extremely well used by the rural community many of whom depend upon its existence, and when calling at Crediton there are frequent bus services into the town from the station, haven't heard much moaning about that. Once it becomes accepted it generally becomes the norm for those of us who choose to live in a rural area, I'm of the opinion there could be be more positives than negatives if and when it happens.

Fingers crossed!

[Siberian Snooper]

The old SR route does nowt for the South Hams and Torbay when the seawall is out, this is where the greater part of the population is outside of Plymouth.

[Ramblin Rich]

The old SR route does nowt for the South Hams and Torbay when the seawall is out, this is where the greater part of the population is outside of Plymouth.

Absolutely and I think we all agree the best overall option would be a new inland route behind Dawlish & Teignmouth which would allow electrification in the long term. The Okehampton route might be a viable community rail service, but thr diversionary benefit would be purely to allow trains to keep moving, but much slower with limited capacity and missing Torbay completely. We know this and it's been said further up this thread but the gov't can't find the money so will talk up the Okehampton route to show they are concerned and thinking about alternatives, but not in a proper long term way....

[The Stationmaster]

Apparently the David Cameron likes the Tavistock route as an option. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-31042325

Presumably some marginal constituencies up around the Okehampton/Tavistock area it would seem

[Siberian Snooper]

Presumably some marginal constituencies up around the Okehampton/Tavistock area it would seem

I think it is all West Devon, I need to check for the current consituency boundaries to be sure. Is /was conservative. South Hams is firmly conservative, unsure about Torbay.

[brianusa]

The old SR route does nowt for the South Hams and Torbay when the seawall is out, this is where the greater part of the population is outside of Plymouth.

 

As has been mentioned, the coast route would always be the primary way whereas opening up the SR would allow an alternative.   While there is now a rebuilt infrastructure, spring is coming and all is well; what about future storms and blockages which are bound to come again, especially with climate change.

 

Brian.

[Siberian Snooper]

As has been mentioned, the coast route would always be the primary way whereas opening up the SR would allow an alternative.   While there is now a rebuilt infrastructure, spring is coming and all is well; what about future storms and blockages which are bound to come again, especially with climate change.

 

Brian.

 

Penny pinching today by using the old Okehampton, Tavistock route will do nothing to provide a long term need for an alternative route between Exeter and Newton Abbot.

[Captain Kernow]

I remain unconvinced by the commercial sense of reopening the Okehampton route. I saw this in the relatively certain knowledge of the amount of support for the Bere Alston to Tavistock project.

 

It's one thing for any government to support the funding of complete reopening via Okehampton (in whatever form that might take - eg. full double track or single with passing places), but it's quite another thing to have to commit to supporting a pretty unremunerative local service all year round, unless there is serious additional support in the form of major new housing developments along the line of route etc. (remember that 750 new homes were required to support Bere Alston - Tavistock). I doubt, also, that Devon CC or other parties would be too keen, were they forced to contribute to such an open-ended financial commitment.

 

I think it is interesting that the draft Western Route Strategy indicates that two additional tracks may be required between Exeter and Newton Abbot by 2043, because that indicates a new, inland route (there being no room for additional track for much of the existing route without huge and prohibitively expensive civil engineering works).

 

My personal view is that further resilience works to improve the Sea Wall is the way ahead (even though the Sea Wall will be in a better state (by a considerable margin) than at any other time in its history, once the current walkway raising works at Sea Lawn Terrace are completed).

[brianusa]

Undoubtedly the Cap'n is correct; its his job after all and he should know.  However, if a secondary route is needed in whatever capacity, then this route should be considered.

Who knows, direct trains to Waterloo from Plymouth, no reversals, etc.......................................................Stop!

 

Brian.

[Siberian Snooper]

I would not expect to see very much development work between Okehampton and Tavistock as a very large proportion of the route lies inside Dartmoor National Park, thus reducing the chances of significant developments getting planning permission.

 

Bridestowe and Lydford stations are a significant distance from the villages they serve thereby requiring a drive to get to them, which is therefore unlikely to be convienient for local rail journeys.

[HSB]

Undoubtedly the Cap'n is correct; its his job after all and he should know.  However, if a secondary route is needed in whatever capacity, then this route should be considered.

Who knows, direct trains to Waterloo from Plymouth, no reversals, etc.......................................................Stop!

 

Brian.

With passenger services normally operated by multiple units reversals are pretty well irrelevant these days - just a matter of the driver walking from one end of the train to the other - and it is surely shorter and quicker to reach Plymouth by the existing route than going all round Dartmoor.

[southernman8]

Absolutely and I think we all agree the best overall option would be a new inland route behind Dawlish & Teignmouth which would allow electrification in the long term. The Okehampton route might be a viable community rail service, but thr diversionary benefit would be purely to allow trains to keep moving, but much slower with limited capacity and missing Torbay completely. We know this and it's been said further up this thread but the gov't can't find the money so will talk up the Okehampton route to show they are concerned and thinking about alternatives, but not in a proper long term way....

Not sure I would agree that the best overall option is a new inland route behind Dawlish & Teignmouth. If this was adopted, I remain unconvinced that the current line (singled or not) would remain as a significant expense serving only a few local stations. The temptation would be to close surely!

 

The other points worth re-iterating are that the line through Okehampton opens up the railway to a large swathe of land. If the Barnstaple line (with Barnstaple as the one really significant station) can do so well why can't the re-instated Okehampton line?

 

Also it will take years and years before any line round the back of Dawlish is planned and permission given. The Okehampton line is much, much quicker to re-build and cheaper too!! My view remains to get the Dartmoor line in use, plan and reserve the land for an inland route behind Dawlish. When will electrification arrive beyond Exeter? Be a few decades yet!!

[brianusa]

With passenger services normally operated by multiple units reversals are pretty well irrelevant these days - just a matter of the driver walking from one end of the train to the other - and it is surely shorter and quicker to reach Plymouth by the existing route than going all round Dartmoor.

 

 

Au contraire!  In previous comment on this thread a lot was made about reversals and the time and inconvenience they made! 

 

Brian.

[The Stationmaster]

Au contraire!  In previous comment on this thread a lot was made about reversals and the time and inconvenience they made! 

 

Brian.

And definitely a time cost with longer trains such as HSTs.  Reversing a single car or 2 car dmu is one thing, not quite the same on a 2+8 HST (where it needs 7 minutes) .

 

And of course (well worn record played again, sorry) it's not just the reversing but the doubling back at both Exeter and Plymouth which chews up time - that alone can add  9 minutes to the journey time.  

 

Thus two reversals (7 mins + 7mins) plus the duplicated running time (9 minutes) will add 23 minutes from which we can deduct, say, 2 minutes for each existing station stop giving a nett additional time of 19 minutes solely arising from trains having to reverse at both Exeter and Plymouth and excluding any additional running time as a result of going via Okehampton and having to be pathed over a largely single line.

[edcayton]

And definitely a time cost with longer trains such as HSTs.  Reversing a single car or 2 car dmu is one thing, not quite the same on a 2+8 HST (where it needs 7 minutes) .

 

And of course (well worn record played again, sorry) it's not just the reversing but the doubling back at both Exeter and Plymouth which chews up time - that alone can add  9 minutes to the journey time.  

 

Thus two reversals (7 mins + 7mins) plus the duplicated running time (9 minutes) will add 23 minutes from which we can deduct, say, 2 minutes for each existing station stop giving a nett additional time of 19 minutes solely arising from trains having to reverse at both Exeter and Plymouth and excluding any additional running time as a result of going via Okehampton and having to be pathed over a largely single line.

 

Mike, I envisaged trains from Central (and beyond) running to Plymouth via Oke, but terminating there, so no reversals.

 

Ed

[Gwiwer]

All Paddington - West of England services currently call at Exeter St. Davids and most change crews there.  While the public timetable might suggest only a couple of minutes is scheduled the reality is that agreements between operator, staff and unions will determine that a reasonable - and usually longer - time is the minimum actually permitted.

 

Those trains which continue into or originate from Cornwall also are given a few minutes' stand at Plymouth in either direction.  While this is handy to recover lost time it isn't a crew changeover point on every trip.  

 

In neither case is the present allowance long enough to reverse a train which must also of necessity then be offered a route crossing the path of other trains at both reversal locations and must observe speed limits which may be no higher than ( and potentially lower than) those which exist via Dawlish.

 

There is very little local traffic potential.  Exeter - Okehampton would have supported a daily service before now if the funding authorities felt it was likely to be viable.  Tavistock - Plymouth is the subject of a local service restoration plan.  That assumes long-distance trains would even stop at those places.

 

I would estimate the time penalty for a double-reversal and operation via the LSWR route to be at least 20 - 25 minutes over and above current schedules.  That implies at least one additional HST / IEP set would be required to maintain current service levels and probably more.  Cross-Country would likewise feel the pinch in terms of journey times and shortened turn backs at Plymouth creating a need for additional rolling stock.

 

If there ever was to be a reopening of a Waterloo - Salisbury - Exeter - Plymouth service that could assume a local role over the Tavistock section and would be likely to call at other intermediate stations; it is already an all-stations operation west of Salisbury.  It would, however, conflict with other operations since a flat crossing of the GWR route would be required somewhere in the Exeter area which impinges on everyone's pathing and access opportunities.

 

Much though I like the overall idea I feel it is a non-option.

[Siberian Snooper]

Using the Okehamton route also means bustitution between Exeter and Newton Abbot, assuming that a service continues to operate between Newton Abbot and Plymouth, And also between Newton Abbot and Paignton. This means two changes for those poor blighters and longer journey times to boot as the route in and out of Exeter is diabolical at the best of times.

[Xerces Fobe2]

I am afraid that David Cameron, like most politicians resorts to the use of bovine splatter, far to often! 

[Captain Kernow]

I really wouldn't worry about the extra time involved in reversing long-distance trains at Plymouth and Exeter, it would only apply if trains were diverted via the new diversionary route!

 

Otherwise, trains will continue to run via the main line, which will always be via South Devon, because this is where most of the people live.

 

So, if you end up being diverted via Okehampton in your Paddington to Penzance HST, that's fine, because it beats getting out, with all your luggage etc., and getting in a bus.

 

However, in order to ensure that that diversionary route is available 'at any time', a full, daily local service will be required, where the traincrew links have to incorporate turns that use both the South Devon and Okehampton routes, in order to ensure that your diverted HST isn't waiting around at Plymouth or Exeter for ages, waiting for a driver or guard who knows the road.

 

As such, someone has to pay for that expensive, year-round local service...

[royaloak]

Au contraire!  In previous comment on this thread a lot was made about reversals and the time and inconvenience they made! 

 

Brian.

But the Exmouth to Paignton units (normally 2 or 3 coaches long) are timetabled to reverse at Exeter st Davids in 3 minutes, normally with the same driver!

I dont see reversals as a problem at all, and I say that as a train driver.

[brianusa]

Mike, I envisaged trains from Central (and beyond) running to Plymouth via Oke, but terminating there, so no reversals.

 

Ed

 

Exactly!  Cornwall traffic would be the only trains needing reversals.  But all this is hypothetical as it wont happen for ages if at  all, but hypotheticising is always interesting when discussing railways. 

 

Brian.

 

Brian.

[locoholic]

Sadly, in a country that apparently can't even afford to fill in pot holes or repaint road markings, I think it's a bit far-fetched to take the re-instatement of the Meldon-Tavistock line seriously, especially if a politician says it just before an election.

[The Stationmaster]

Mike, I envisaged trains from Central (and beyond) running to Plymouth via Oke, but terminating there, so no reversals.

 

Ed

Ed I somehow think the good citizens of Cornwall and their visitors would be most upset if they happened to lose through trains into England beyond Plymouth after somebody spent a large sum of money on a so called 'diversionary' route.  plus of course some HST sets would in any case need to get to Penzance for servicing.

 

However even a train only runs as far as Plymouth it still faces a reversal time penalty/duplicated mileage covered penalty of 10 minutes, say, 8 minutes net in addition to the additional running time.  Incidentally the times I have quoted are those mandated in Rules Of the Plan plus contemporary WTT times for the sections of duplicated mileage - so they aren't guesstimates, they are what the trains would actually incur in timetabling terms.

 

And of course the good Cap'n is absolutely right about the costs of providing an all year round service on the old Southern route if it were reopened to which we can add the costs for regular route refreshers and the very substantial costs of a railway which would basically serve a very sparse population east of Tavistock and would go nowhere near the main centres of population in South Devon between exeter and Torbay.  All too obvious that attention and whatever money is available will be spent on the existing route until, probably, the need for additional capacity becomes too pressing to be ignored.

[brushman47544]

I really wouldn't worry about the extra time involved in reversing long-distance trains at Plymouth and Exeter, it would only apply if trains were diverted via the new diversionary route!

 

Otherwise, trains will continue to run via the main line, which will always be via South Devon, because this is where most of the people live.

 

So, if you end up being diverted via Okehampton in your Paddington to Penzance HST, that's fine, because it beats getting out, with all your luggage etc., and getting in a bus.

 

However, in order to ensure that that diversionary route is available 'at any time', a full, daily local service will be required, where the traincrew links have to incorporate turns that use both the South Devon and Okehampton routes, in order to ensure that your diverted HST isn't waiting around at Plymouth or Exeter for ages, waiting for a driver or guard who knows the road.

 

As such, someone has to pay for that expensive, year-round local service...

Indeed, but wouldn't there be a similar issue with the other alternatives too? Trains would have to use them all the time to maintain crew route knowledge so there would be added costs whichever if any diversionary route is chosen. Routing a small number of HSTs via a reopened Okehampton route on services that start/terminate at Plymouth (so no second reversal) should be enough to maintain route knowledge -after all in steam days wasn't one daily turn via each route sufficient? This could then be complemented by a local service more closely tailored to demand.

[locoholic]

Surely the point is that the whole of the GW route between Exeter and Plymouth is not fit for purpose as a 21st century railway? Between Exeter and Newton Abbot it's too vulnerable to the forces of nature, and from Newton Abbot to Plymouth it's too steep and bendy. The problem needs to be looked at in a regional context, just like HS2. Take a look at what the Italians did to the route between Bologna and Florence: that route in now in its third incarnation, each one straighter and with more tunnels than the previous one, whilst the west of England still has to put up with that idiot Brunel's "vision" from early Victorian times.

 

The Okehampton route is only in the frame because it looks vaguely "do-able". I think it's best chance is if some kind of leisure/heritage use is factored in, to make it the Settle & Carlisle of southern Britain.