RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2014 So you are suggesting I speculate on this model as I could make a profit. If that is how you are going to get to 1000 sales from the 50 expressions of interest then i would be buying something for which there is no widespread demand just so 50 people get the model they desire and I would have spent money on something I didn't want and could not sell. I hope you're not really saying that. Hello woodenhead, Not quite! What I am saying is that although I understand this particular model is the wrong era for you, the benefit to you of choosing to support this project is that you'll be helping to prove the concept, which may well lead to models that you do want. Furthermore, while I personally hope that you'll like your Pendolino and want to keep it, in reality what you do with it when you (or anyone) receives it is none of my business. And if you do decide to sell it, my own belief is that you will recoup your money. You may disagree; that is of course entirely reasonable. My point was really that those who don't necessarily need a Pendolino for their layout could still, if they choose, support this project at minimal financial risk, but with the possibility of considerable future gain. So if we are being asked to speculate towards anything, it's a new way of N gauge modellers collectively developing models they want, rather than having to convince manufacturers and then wait. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Woodenhead, Think of it like I do you put your money in, if we hit the 250k needed you get a shiney new model to do as you please, if not you get your money back! Although not what you want it will prove the concept any extras sold or a long term production means profit and profit going in making more models of what we want as modelers and less of same things in a different colour, for 5 year till something new has to come out! That's how I look at it and it works for me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2014 Julia, Yes, Virgin are fine with use of their livery. There have been licencing issues with Virgin Class 57 locomotives but that's down to the rights to the "Thunderbird" character names and use of the "International Rescue" logo. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hi Woodenhead Unless the funding target is reached, no money even has to leave your bank account! I think your second point may be incorrect in this case. As I understand it, only the initial batch will be the subject of the crowd-funding and "special" price of £250. Title to the tooling is retained by DJM who will then have the rights to produce subsequent batches. Any profit made on those subsequent models will be DJM's. I could see that being the case for future models too. Regards Roy P.S. Ben or Mike please correct me if I am wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hello Woodenhead, I agree with you about the collector market - it's not something I know a lot about; are there any publications particularly geared to them that we should target? Also, while I accept that the Pendolino will be too modern for many, I would urge anyone to consider supporting it because: 1) No money will be actually taken unless the project flies 2) I believe the models will be very saleable on ebay afterward, once people actually see them 3) While not essential, I think that If this initiative is a success it will make other such projects - perhaps for an iconic train you really do want - far more likely. 4) In a broader sense, a strong vote of confidence in the N gauge OHLE market will encourage the major manufacturers to look again at this market; a reworked 87, 90 and all new 85 may well become more likely as a result. This could be the start of something really big, or just a damp squib. So now it's down to those of us who are trying to make it happen to do our bit properly and up to British N Gauge modellers to join us. cheers Ben A. Points 2&3 which I read as support us by buying one and the sell it straight away on Ebay. Now I am not going to labour this as it will detract from the topic and all I was doing in my original post was highlighting a potential market for this train that may help get to the magic 1000 units I don't understand why there was any need to mention these trains will be eminently sellable on EBay unless the insinuation was buy then sell it. I buy to keep and like I said in my original post this train is outside of my era so wouldn't be buying one. I was only posting originally to say I think there might be a collectors market to tap into I was not looking to cause an issue or argument. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les1952 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I won't be joining in for two reasons- a- it is well outside my time and area and and b- which is much more important- I haven't got £250 spare for a punt on this in the reasonably foreseeable future without seriously curtailing my planned spend on a half-dozen or so of Dave's announced locos. However- if I DID have the £250 available I probably would have considered joining in, rule 1 would outweigh reason a.. All the very best Les edited to remove a smiley the system randomly put in.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mokjumbo Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Points 2&3 which I read as support us by buying one and the sell it straight away on Ebay. Now I am not going to labour this as it will detract from the topic and all I was doing in my original post was highlighting a potential market for this train that may help get to the magic 1000 units I don't understand why there was any need to mention these trains will be eminently sellable on EBay unless the insinuation was buy then sell it. I buy to keep and like I said in my original post this train is outside of my era so wouldn't be buying one. I was only posting originally to say I think there might be a collectors market to tap into I was not looking to cause an issue or argument. I model outside this era.I have modelled N gauge since 1969.I am fed up with people who try to disparage others who try to improve the breed.I am SO pleased with the modern N gauge scene compared to what was available 40 years ago.I WILL be supporting this all the way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steve Purves Posted August 17, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2014 This is not for me now nor in the immediate future but I am pretty sure I will need one at some point so I'm in.... Now for a dummy 57 to push around... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I model outside this era.I have modelled N gauge since 1969.I am fed up with people who try to disparage others who try to improve the breed.I am SO pleased with the modern N gauge scene compared to what was available 40 years ago.I WILL be supporting this all the way. I was not trying to disparage the attempt to get a Pendolino, I entered the thread with a suggestion to build the potential market for this model. If you read my first post in this thead you would see that. There is no doubt that a Pendolino model will be welcomed and will be of a good quality, I model BR blue and steam so I have no need for the model but I have no issue with people pooling together to get one produced. What I do object to is people suggesting I should buy one anyway just to support N gauge. Given a typical trip to a model shop will end with over £200 leaving my bank account then I think I am already doing my bit for N gauge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Ok I was a little out but its an all or nothing scenario, it happens and you pay if not you are not out of pocket Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted August 17, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2014 What I do object to is people suggesting I should buy one anyway just to support N gauge. Given a typical trip to a model shop will end with over £200 leaving my bank account then I think I am already doing my bit for N gauge. I'm unsure of why you've taken personally umbrage at something quite so innocuous. No one is forcing you to buy one, to suggest anything to the contrary Is absurd. No one is saying you don't do your bit for the hobby or whatever. You've made your point, badly, I'm unsure of what you're attempting to contribute to this thread? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hello woodenhead, I don't quite see why you feel you're being criticised or preached at; that certainly is not the intention. What I am getting from your posts is that you feel buying one of these models and then selling it on ebay is wrong. I don't see why; what anyone does with a model once they've bought it is their concern. I was just trying to suggest reasons why you might *choose* to support this scheme even if you don't really want the model: that if you do it makes the prospect of similar crowd-sourcing schemes more likely - and therefore more likely one of them will produce something you do want - and, should you not wish to keep this model, there is a mechanism (ebay) in which I think you would recover your outlay. No one is being critical of your position, or suggesting you have to do anything you don't want to! And neither you (nor anyone else, to be fair) has answered the main question I asked in response to your original post: Is there some kind of collectors' publication, forum or community that we need to know about to make collectors aware of this opportunity? cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I've dominated the conversation long enough probably more because of a misunderstanding over the words used than their intent. In terms of collectors clubs I don't know of any personally as i 'play' rather than collect but there is this outfit established 30 years: http://www.traincollector.co.uk/Index.html supported by Pat Hammond. I think to tap into this market might really help shift models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 There is also http://www.collectorsweekly.com/model-trains/overview http://traincollectors.org/ http://www.collectors-club-of-great-britain.co.uk/Model-Railways/_ch31 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 you need to get an entity interested in pledging for a bulk order which could help the numbers. it may be the only way to hit the target of a 1000 in the desired timescale. is it something that the likes of Hattons, Rails, C&M Models of Carlisle, London Transport Museum, Harburn Hobbies, Ian Allen Bookshops, Kernow Models, NGS, NRM York, Gaugemaster etc would be interested in pledging 10, 25, 50, 100+ booksets maybe ? relying solely on individuals to get the numbers in i just dont see that working for you. ok there is an argument that retailers still sell to individuals but they can stock the model longer than the manufacturer would ever want to, are more likely to be financially able to pledge for more than the 1 or two sets an individual might only be able to stretch to, sell at premiums if they wish and maybe reach a wider non-rmwebber audience and importantly over a longer time period beyond your initial timescale that will be in place to reach 1000 if its ever to reach fruition. your main concern is to get to the goal of a 1000 in one immediate hit so if retailers can afford to take on some "for the stockroom" it removes the requirement for immediate purchase/pledge by individuals that wont all be around when you really need them ie; when the kickstarter opens its doors and the clock begins ticking..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Harbour Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I've said "yes" to the poll, but it would have absolutely no relevance to the layout I'm stalled on building! I could always use it on my local club's layout! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 My position is very similar to Les. I see this project very much as the test of "Kickstater" as a means of bringing models to market, and with the likes of Ben and Mike heading it up (Both with experience of NGS product development and in Ben's case ATM too), personally I think it has the right people to make it credible as far as getting the appropriate "air time" and column space in magazines is concerned. I would love to support it, and would run it as a "Rule 1" model, but £250 is just too much of my modelling budget to commit. I know once I had it I wouldn't sell it on (same reason I still have a totally irrelevant 2 + 6 GNER HST set I keep meaning to sell but don't!). Were it a "punt" for a lesser amount (for say a 5 car set) I would do so it irrespective of my modelling interests to support the project. However, I understand why that would not be attractive to others. If there were any risk of the funding for this but not the full set being achieved - for those wanting the full 9 car set I can see that in some ways that would be worse than not having the model at all. My position is therefore that I will watch and encourage in the hope that it will be successful and provide the catalyst for future models that I will be more able to support with a firm financial pledge. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted August 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 18, 2014 you need to get an entity interested in pledging for a bulk order which could help the numbers. it may be the only way to hit the target of a 1000 in the desired timescale. is it something that the likes of Hattons, Rails, C&M Models of Carlisle, London Transport Museum, Harburn Hobbies, Ian Allen Bookshops, Kernow Models, NGS, NRM York, Gaugemaster etc would be interested in pledging 10, 25, 50, 100+ booksets maybe ? <snip> your main concern is to get to the goal of a 1000 in one immediate hit so if retailers can afford to take on some "for the stockroom" it removes the requirement for immediate purchase/pledge by individuals that wont all be around when you really need them ie; when the kickstarter opens its doors and the clock begins ticking..... There is a significant problem with bulk ordering in that Kickstarter won't allow more than 10 of the produced item to be used as a reward (if I 've read the rules correctly) - whether that would allow say 10 of each set number if we produced 4 different sets I need to check. I'm not sure how many traders would be prepared to pay cash up front either. Whilst we would happily welcome traders onboard, I don't see it working other than through the Kickstarter campaign (which of course they are welcome to support). Something to think about though. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 it would be disappointing if traders are restricted because the vote figures are going in the wrong direction. i know only the Yes votes count but the No votes should be ignored at your peril in these early days. it would be interesting to know what the No voters "would" vote for if they wouldnt vote for a Pendolino.......personally i would vote for n gauge classes 81-90 locos (exl.Dapol 86) so i have an interest in wcml ohle models but from the previous era. do the No voters i wonder have the same interests, no interest whatsoever in electrics, are voting because they would sooner see another kettle or diesel be released instead???? who knows. if the No votes dont count then im not sure of the use of a poll vote in the first place when a simple "i'm in" list would achieve pretty much the same numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce1959 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Definitely a yes for me. Would invest in five 5x 9 car units so I could convert two of the nines into eleven car units. Good luck with this ambitious project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 ps. i like the idea that we show some degree of philanthropy for our fellow modellers insofar as its being marketed on the basis that pledge on this and whilst it might not be your thing you might help future kickstarters for a model that is your thing BUT for me i only have money to spare for models i do want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 18, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 18, 2014 Hello Thane, You're right, and frankly I'm not reading too much into the poll. It may be an indicator of how the Kickstarter campaign will go; it may not. My position is simple: I like OHLE, and want to see more in N. But for various reasons I can't see any of the main manufacturers launching anything new in OHLE for a while. The internet, combined with Kickstarter, combined with a new and enthusiastic manufacturer willing to work with it, provide a new framework for bringing a product to market. As was said above, Mike and I both have some experience of product development in N and we've thought hard and decided we want to give it a try. The Pendolino was selected because it's been around for 12 years already (as long as some Westerns!!) and seems likely to be the key express train type on the WCML for at least a decade to come. And in the fullness of time the Pendolinos will, I imagine, engender the same nostalgia that 86s and 87s already do for some of us now. We would love for traders and collectors to support this project and we will endeavour to ensure that all are aware of this idea. But there are no shortcuts - the only way to support will be to sign up to the Kickstarter to attain the goal and release the funding. However, Mike and I do have lots of ideas for rewards for those that don't want to commit for a full nine car set and we will do all we can to provide a framework that allows anyone who wants to contribute to do so. Interestingly, Kickstarter's website suggests that campaigns over 30 days tend to do better than those over 60, perhaps because they focus minds and show a clear and unhesitating commitment to action... Cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I think the "no" votes may be relevant if only to the extent of understanding what (if anything) might convert them to "yes" in the context of this project. Hence my reply above. "No" because I cannot justify the £250 spend on a "rule 1" model. I would dearly love to support it, as this is a pivotal test, but I have other models more in keeping with my own modelling interests to buy. What might make it "yes" is a smaller commitment (say a 5 car set) meaning a lower price-point of say £150. However that may, I accept compromise the project for those wanting a full set if too many think like me (and no I could not be persuaded to commit to £250 on the basis I could sell unwanted coaches on - I do not want the faff of doing that). Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 When will the kickstarter go live? For this to have any hope of getting 1000 pledges maximum publicity will be needed, so notices in all the magazines, NGS journal, the N Gauge Forum and even a stand at TINGS would help. If this can be coordinated for the same period, it will maximise coverage. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 isnt there an exhibition comingbup purely for electric trains? cant recall where but its this year and could be an oppo to put out the word. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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