N gauge Pendolino project

[alibuchan]

Hornby wouldn't help. Especially if they find that the Arnold belle sells well. It isn't in their best interest to help a competitor get a product to market that they could do too.

 

Alistair

[njee20]

Isn't the inference that Hornby may just downsize their Pendolino to N, potentially under the Arnold brand, rather than helping in the crowd sourced funding bid by A.N Other manufacturer?

[acko22]

Hey all,

 

I'm throwing my 5 pence in again (if I keep doing this I could have paid for a model by the time I have finished!)

 

There are certainly many an issue as regards a kick start and crowd funding plan from people not willing to part with their cash for something they wont get right away, to people wanting smaller sets or waiting to see if more paint schemes would come about if an open access operator comes about.

 

I am all in favour  of funding this project as are a number of people, personally I would be after a 5 / 6 coach set but been pragmatic about it if people want 11 coach sets then well there could be room for a swap or sell with the coaches that I wouldn't want. As to paints scheme well for me and a number of others Virgin branding would not be an issue as I am doing a west coast theme and should more operators use them I would get the units in that colour scheme to when the time came.

 

The big issue has been cost and getting the finances together to fund such a project, while there is in reality only 42 yes votes on the poll at the moment the topic has only been up a short time and that number can increase rapidly if word was got out not only in the forums but also to the shops that may want to order the sets and in general to the entire N gauge community as not everyone who has N gauge is on this forum. With that it may introduce others to move to N gauge from other gauges as the variation increases and may include the one model they want again this would bring in more funders to the project.

 

While people are been negative about it we need to know why, just as much as the yes votes, as pointed out some people may just be saying No as they model a completely different scale!

 

In the short run what is needed it to find out:

 

a) In the entire market not just forums, how many people would want models and how many

b) What size sets they would like be it 5 car, 9 Car etc and (would they buy a 5 car set to then buy the 4 extras or is it more worth while going 9 cars or nothing!)

c) What price they are willing to pay for it there is no point someone putting in a pound thinking they will get something from it! if it costs 250 well it has to be that or nothing (that been said if there are higher numbers ordering it may bring costs down a little)

 

I know on the coach issue I would be looking at a 5 / 6 coach set but been pragmatic about it if it was a nine car set and someone wants 11 on a private basis could do a sway or sell!

Also would it not be worth speaking to the shops to see if this is something they would want to stock or their customers want that will sell, if a shop says yes and would order a sizeable amount then it could be worth using them to bolster numbers and if willing put their hand in to fund a part of the project!

I know most of the larger places now (such as Hattons) advertise online so have a larger customer base and if they were interested and willing to fund a large part then potentially they could be offered the model as an exclusive sold only by them!

 

I know that looks into things a bit more but if 250 grand was needed well things have to be looked at harder!

[njee20]

The shop dynamic could be interesting. I don't know what the margins are like on model stuff, but if the deal is that the first 1000 sets go for £250 (and if you didn't get 1000 buyers it wouldn't happen), could retailers potentially buy for £250 and sell at an agreed retail price for subsequent batches - perhaps £350 or so as mentioned previously.

 

Wonder if Hattons/RoS etc would be interested on those terms?

 

There's an initial batch of customers effectively buying at 'trade' prices, but thereafter the channels are more conventional.

[acko22]

That's what I am thinking, I know The Midland Pullman sold at 250 for a 6 car set when it came.

If they purchased they at the trade 250 they would sell at more but that's their business, just looking at it they are still selling the Midland Pullman ok at 171 now but two years down the line just proves it could work if we get a shop or number of shops involved in the project.

[Revolution Mike]

With my NGS hat on it might be possible to ask our Hornby contact about their future intentions, though whether they would be prepared to answer is another matter!

 

Shops - I think this potentially tricky, though far from impossible.  The difficulty is as njee20 says in the difference between buying at "trade" vs retail mark up. At £250 there is nothing in it for them, unless they can mark up that stock and sell to people who want a Pendolino but aren't prepared to risk paying up front.

 

The bottom line is that there will be a certain amount of money needed to be raised (est. £250k) and how that is raised and who pays (individuals or shops taking a punt) is kind of irrelevant as long as the funding target is reached.

 

However before we get ahead of ourselves, at the moment what we need is enough expressions of interest to make it worthwhile to prepare a Kickstarter campaign. If people are aware of discussions elsewhere then please point them this way and ask them to vote Yes! I'm aware of the similar discussion and poll on the NGF and it might be possible to add in the votes on there, but at the moment we are nowhere even close to making it worthwhile starting a Kickstarter campaign (unless you all want to buy 20+ ).

 

Cheers, Mike

[Pete 75C]

I wouldn't be in such a rush to dismiss the "No" votes as coming from people modelling Welsh narrow gauge in 7mm (for example). This thread has N gauge in the title which is why I'm reading it. Being an N gauge modeller, I'm not likely to rush off and start voting in a 7mm poll... As much as I'd like to see this happen, my own "No" vote stems from the fact that I personally dislike committing to buy locos or rolling stock without having had a chance to see what I'm buying or at least read a review. I'm just one of those folk who doesn't do pre-orders. Anyway, that's irrelevant, as are the "No" votes. The important thing is to gauge interest by counting the "Yes" votes. Love to see it happen.

[njee20]

At £250 there is nothing in it for them, unless they can mark up that stock and sell to people who want a Pendolino but aren't prepared to risk paying up front.

 

Well sort of - the only people able to get one at £250 would be the initial 1,000. Say (for example) 500 go to retailers and 500 go to customers, anyone after the first 500 wanting to buy one would have to go through the retail channels, and pay whatever the retailers wanted to sell at. It would depend on things like margins and clearly is entirely reliant on there being sufficient demand in the first place.

 

As I say, think of it as customers having access to a set at trade prices as a reward for being an early adopter, rather than shops having to buy at retail.

[frobisher]

The way that Kickstarter works would mean you would fund the whole production run or nothing at all so it makes no difference (to Kickstarter) if someone pledges for one coach, a 4 car set, a 5 car set, 9 car set or 11 car set or even a smaller amount to support the project - the pledges all go towards hitting your overall target.

Yup, which is why you have to design the KS suitably to get people to pledge. Just so long as the balance of 9 and shorter sets is viable for production for the total raised. It should be noted that something like the ability to purchase the add on coach packs doesn't dilute the KS at all - that's additional revenue AFTER the target is met and the tooling costs are covered, but you still have the benefit of having a known set of pre-paid orders and can tailor manufacturing accordingly.

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

I think it's looking likely that Mike Hale and I are going to give this a try. If nothing comes of it then no one loses anything after all, though it would confirm that there really is a lack of drive/interest/commitment to modern OHLE models in British N.

 

A couple of provisos: 

 

1) it won't happen until we've seen something (OO or N) produced by DJM.

2) it'll be produced in a factory with a proven track record in N. 

3) the tooling won't be used by any other party for a reasonable period after first production.

4) the individual vehicle produced will never be available again - at least not from this tooling.

 

More details about safeguards, spec, timescales, milestones and production details will be given nearer the time.

 

We'll also need some time to start getting a publicity plan organised so I anticipate this going live in autumn. Please keep a lookout and tell other enthusiasts/collectors/club members to keep an eye out here, elsewhere and in the press.

 

We have some ideas to incentivise people to sing up - loyalty bonuses, milestones etc - and there'll be a lot more information about what exactly is on offer nearer the time.  One example: a vote so those who support the model decide democratically the identity of the actual unit depicted. 

 

The internet has created lots of new possibilities for groups of like-minded enthusiasts, and this is a real chance to do something different, and to get a model of one of the most iconic trains of this generation that is unlikely to be produced by the mainstream manufacturers.

 

Of course, if Hornby announce one in the meantime then the Kickstarter project can be abandoned with no cash taken but given the time it's taken to get the Brighton Belle to market (over 18 months so far) and the likely cost, I think a 9-car Pendolino for £250 is going to be hard to beat...

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[njee20]

I have little experience in this Ben, nor the contacts you have in the industry, but I'm happy to help in any way I can.

[Stu from EGDL]

Hi Ben/Mike,

 

More power to your elbow. Well done for putting your head above the parapet. I also like your list of provisos......

Let me know if I can help at all.

 

Regards,

Stu in LCRA.

[jpendle]

 

Hello all,

 

I think it's looking likely that Mike Hale and I are going to give this a try. If nothing comes of it then no one loses anything after all, though it would confirm that there really is a lack of drive/interest/commitment to modern OHLE models in British N.

 

A couple of provisos: 

 

1) it won't happen until we've seen something (OO or N) produced by DJM.

2) it'll be produced in a factory with a proven track record in N. 

3) the tooling won't be used by any other party for a reasonable period after first production.

4) the individual vehicle produced will never be available again - at least not from this tooling.

 

More details about safeguards, spec, timescales, milestones and production details will be given nearer the time.

 

We'll also need some time to start getting a publicity plan organised so I anticipate this going live in autumn. Please keep a lookout and tell other enthusiasts/collectors/club members to keep an eye out here, elsewhere and in the press.

 

We have some ideas to incentivise people to sing up - loyalty bonuses, milestones etc - and there'll be a lot more information about what exactly is on offer nearer the time.  One example: a vote so those who support the model decide democratically the identity of the actual unit depicted. 

 

The internet has created lots of new possibilities for groups of like-minded enthusiasts, and this is a real chance to do something different, and to get a model of one of the most iconic trains of this generation that is unlikely to be produced by the mainstream manufacturers.

 

Of course, if Hornby announce one in the meantime then the Kickstarter project can be abandoned with no cash taken but given the time it's taken to get the Brighton Belle to market (over 18 months so far) and the likely cost, I think a 9-car Pendolino for £250 is going to be hard to beat...

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

 

Hi Ben,

 

So first of all, thank you for deciding to take this on with Mike.

As one of the original voters I was wondering who amongst us would have the time or courage to take this on.

 

Antway with regard to your 4 points.

 

3) Why restrict the use of the tooling? If 1000 sell then wouldn't it make sense do run an additional batch, if they are all 9 car then shouldn't extra coaches be sold to allow 11 car rakes to be made up.

4) You say 'individual vehicle'. I will buy 2 so I want them to have different numbers and names. Ideally I'd like a painted but unnumbered model with transfers available to do the numbers and etched brass name plates.

 

Thanks,

 

John P

[DJM Dave]

Hi everyone,

 

I think it best be noted here, that Ben and I had a long conversation earlier today regarding this possible project in which we discussed various things that we both need to be happy with, ( should the 1000 magic number be reached) and one of them is that I will not be asking for the full £250k up front, but in parts as and when milestones are reached.

For instance, milestone 1 would be cad cam and design, milestone 2 would be first EP tooling, milestone 3 second EP tooling etc

 

I do not want £250k sitting there in my account, as I wouldn't feel comfortable with that scenario.

Working with payment milestones also focuses the mind both here and in China too ;-)

 

Cheers

Dave

[Revolution Mike]

3) Why restrict the use of the tooling? If 1000 sell then wouldn't it make sense do run an additional batch, if they are all 9 car then shouldn't extra coaches be sold to allow 11 car rakes to be made up.

4) You say 'individual vehicle'. I will buy 2 so I want them to have different numbers and names. Ideally I'd like a painted but unnumbered model with transfers available to do the numbers and etched brass name plates.

 

Hi John

 

The restriction on the use of the tooling is that the rights to the tooling will revert to Dave after the initial run. It might also help to focus the mind - getting 1000 pledges is ambitious! Having said which, normally with Kickstarter if it was looking like we would exceed 1000 units then it might be possible to up the initial run - let's worry about that if we get close!

 

We would have to explore with Dave the possibility of splitting the run into different numbers and whether it had any cost implications.  My gut instinct is keep things simple with one number in standard Virgin livery.  Like you I would like at least 2 and ideally I would prefer individual numbers but if it keeps the unit cost low then I would live with having to re-number one set.

 

Cheers, Mike

[njee20]

 

Hi everyone,

I think it best be noted here, that Ben and I had a long conversation earlier today regarding this possible project in which we discussed various things that we both need to be happy with, ( should the 1000 magic number be reached) and one of them is that I will not be asking for the full £250k up front, but in parts as and when milestones are reached.
For instance, milestone 1 would be cad cam and design, milestone 2 would be first EP tooling, milestone 3 second EP tooling etc

I do not want £250k sitting there in my account, as I wouldn't feel comfortable with that scenario.
Working with payment milestones also focuses the mind both here and in China too ;-)

Cheers
Dave

 

Seems sensible, but wouldn't that preclude use of Kickstarter, which takes the 'pledges' from folk as soon as the funding target is reached doesn't it?

[Revolution Mike]

 

Seems sensible, but wouldn't that preclude use of Kickstarter, which takes the 'pledges' from folk as soon as the funding target is reached doesn't it?

 

 

Dave had already said that he did not want to run the Kickstarter campaign.  Ben and I have been discussing ways in which we can effectively set up a project bank account to hold the pledges in trust should it be funded. It is not ideal and we will have to come up with some form of oversight mechanism.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

Dave makes some good points.  It was after my conversation with Dave that Mike and I decided to take this further.

 

It's very early days and once we have answers then Mike or I will announce the project more fully, with detailed information about the finance and security, the proposed timescales, the specifications etc etc.

 

Some of this of course is still open to debate, and of course this is a collaborative venture so everyone has a say.

 

However, to get this done we will all probably have to be realistic in our approach and prepared to make some compromises.  But even if you're not getting *exactly* what you want, I would urge you to support this scheme as I feel quite strongly that there is unlikely to be the opportunity for another N gauge Pendolino for some years to come.

 

I will try to clarify some of the points raised so far later, but at the moment nothing is set in stone and this remains at the consultation phase.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[gelboy45]

I am becoming more and more interested in this project and I want it to succeed but I am concerned that there is no WCML type OHLE available or on the horizon. Continental modelers have had theirs for years, is it the lack of readily available 'British' overhead that is holding sales of electrics up here?

 

Would this be something that could be sourced too? Would 3D modelling be a possibility?

 

Just sayin....

 

Gerry

[ThaneofFife]

Its unwise to assume that should this KS not get the requisite pledges for a Pendolino that that of itself is a conclusive litmus test that there is no interest in modern OHLE electrics in N - an earlier comment suggested that such failure would confirm.

 

All it should confirm is that the interest lacked is purely in respect of a 9 car EMU.

[Revolution Mike]

I am becoming more and more interested in this project and I want it to succeed but I am concerned that there is no WCML type OHLE available or on the horizon. Continental modelers have had theirs for years, is it the lack of readily available 'British' overhead that is holding sales of electrics up here?

 

Would this be something that could be sourced too? Would 3D modelling be a possibility?

 

Hi Gerry

 

There is Dapol's offering, though I don't know what prototype that is based on (I'm going to pick some up at TINGS) and N Brass Locos does some very nice kits for OHLE.

 

I suspect OHLE is getting a bit close to print tolerances for 3D printing.

 

Cheers, Mike

[acko22]

Ben, Mike and Dave,

 

Fair play to you taking this project on, many on here wouldn't want to or couldn't be able to!

 

I think in the interest of all things it is better to just go for on set model although I appreciate like everything people will always want slightly differ, 5 / 9 / 11 coach set Etc. But if it was a case of to get it off the ground then one set model and I am sure if people want something that little bit different then if they are like me and err creatively challenged there are people out there who can do the work or a good old case of DIY!

 

Gerry as Mike has pointed out there is the Dapol offering, however as he has pointed out N Brass Locos do some great examples, I ordered a set to fiddle about with and see what they are like and they are spot on, plus you get a good range and can alter them for any tricky bits which a pre built Dapol example will make harder to adapt to any complicated track layouts

[gardenwall]

This virgin seating plan may be of some interest to those (inc me) less familiar with the prototype,   I am following this thread as a trail blazer for other potential projects, other than general interest this particular one is not the right scale, period or location for me personally, but I am interested to see how it gets on.  Good luck folks.

 

http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/assets/pdf/global/seating-plan.pdf

[Adam1701D]

Although not strictly my chosen period for modelling, I plan to sign up for this, as the Pendolino is arguably the biggest missing link in the modern N Gauge scene and essential for anyone modelling the WCML.

 

Needless to say that any expansion of interest in the AC overhead scene will be good for Bob Davies and myself who are busy working on various 3D printed and vinyled EMU projects. We have the 313, 507 and 508 available, with the 325 and 314 ready soon.

 

Really chuffed that Ben and Mike have decided to take this forward - exciting times ahead!

[aghodgett]

I see my vote has been counted, thanks for the few helpful comments.

 

Would it be possible to get the project mentioned in as many of the rail magazines as possible? Would some do it as a article of interest, or would they all want paying , I wonder?

Regards

Arthur