gelboy45 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Thanks for the heads up re N Brass Loco's and OHLE. Gerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 I know people are skeptical about the whole crowd funding approach, how ever there is one big plus if it works for all involved and we get the models we want then it may open the doors to more models. While a Pendolino may be an acquired taste or limited audience when it comes to era and area, it will have an positive impact on the N gauge scene as a whole. If you look at the current era 9 models they have a tendency to be old era 8 locos and units such as the class 47s or with modern era 9 something you would have seen all over the network such as the voyagers. With as specialist build for a specific model for a specific area (era 9 WCML) would give people a boost that they can have the look and model they want, more specialized models can be got (hopefully one day a class 304 set) and well a boot up the ass for the main players that us as the customers want more that the same old repainted and updated! I am whole heartedly behind the project and it gets further than the planning and consultation phase I am putting my money in! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 15, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 15, 2014 Hello all, A little more information to add to the mix: The 1000 models will probably be supplied as complete 9-car sets packaged together in two boxes: one containing four vehicles (including the two driving cars) and one containing the other five. The boxes will have a sheath cover. Fitting all nine cars into a single box is impractical as the foam casing between vehicles would be so thin it would probably fail the protective "drop test." A pledge of £250 "wins" a complete 9-car set. There will be 250 sets of 4 different numbers, so those who pledge for more than one need not have two the same. There won't be any dummy units. It's vital not only that the "reach" of any publicity is maximised, but also that it synchronises with the appeal for backing. For this reason I think the Kickstarter campaign will probably be live in about six weeks - so for October and November. This isn't set in stone. Once the Kickstarter 60 days are over, if the required number of pledges have been reached then the cash will be taken at that point and go into a secure account ready to be released in stages to fund the models. I cannot see any money needed before late November *at the earliest* so there is time to save up, if you're keen to support this project. All models are expected to be shipped simultaneously. Remember, this will only happen if the Kickstarter campaign reaches 1000 pledges by the deadline. There are no second chances, and at the moment no prospect of another manufacturer "coming in" with this model, and certainly not within 1/2 years. Bachmann are unlikely to do it because Hornby do it in OO, Dapol have already cancelled, Arnold still have not released their Brighton Belle (£210 for 5 cars) so I think it's unlikely they will manage it in either the time frame or at the price point. I understand that there are some who are reluctant to purchase "sight unseen" but this has been a successful way of achieving other models Mike and I have been involved with such as the BR Snowplough, LMS Inspection Saloon and Queen Mary brake van. The only real difference here is one of scale and ambition. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Ben, While that is great new, only 1 issue I see been Christmas if you are looking at taking funds late November time it may price people out purely due to timing would it not be better to aim off at collecting the funds post Christmas? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 15, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 15, 2014 Hi Acko, I did think that. Then I thought that if we wait until after Christmas people will say they've got no money left because they spent it all at Christmas! And, of course, it adds delay - which may be disproportionate when you factor in Chinese New Year. Plus I was hoping some people might ask for cash towards a pledge as their "early" Xmas gift. I think that whenever we do it some will find a reason to buy, or a reason not to. Indeed, knowing that the cash would be needed at the end of November gives people 3.5 months to save from now. And if the campaign fails and no money is taken - it's an early Xmas bonus!! What do others think? Cheers Ben A. (Edited for damn autocorrect) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Ok fair point! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty3971 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 I would be happy to pay upfront for a 9 car set. Just voted Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeharvey22 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 I have had to replace my piggybank with a jumbobank to get enough in for 2 sets. Thanks for your initiative on this, Ben and Mike. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted August 16, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 16, 2014 I'm absolutely in for £250 in late November. Can I ask that we put the motor in one of the driver trailers? 2 decoders is bad enough, 3 is a pain, downright rude on a 4-car unit - Farish 350 I'm looking at you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold scottystitch Posted August 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2014 I intend to fully support this project, even though it's not my era, not suitable for my layout and will not be run on it (possibly a future layout, who knows, or it could be split and sold on for those wishing a smaller set/larger set) In any case, what happens if, and not wishing to tempt fate, you get 1,500 pledges of £250? Do you automatically produce 1,500 sets? Or would it be the case of that only the first 1,000 pledges qualify for the first run before DJM get the rights? Also, if you do produce more than 1000 sets does the unit cost come down? These maybe questions that you can't answer as yet....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Others may know more, but I believe you can have an initial goal and then a further "stretch goal" too, the first not dependant on the second being achieved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 It depends how the Kickstarter is organised. But the fundamental "rule" is that if you pledge the money for a reward level, you get that reward. There may be a limit on number of pledge slots at a particular level, so for instance if it was limited to 1000 9 car sets at £250, then you wouldn't be able to collect 1500 pledges at that level. This doesn't preclude a structure which offers the following... 1000 available "First production run" 9 car set limited edition @ £250 unlimited number 9 car set @ £250 No idea what structure Ben, Mike and Dave are aiming for of course... But have a looksee at http://www.kickstarter.com at the various projects to get a feel for how these things work - there's a lot of different was of skinning this particular cat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted August 16, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2014 Ben and I have been discussing the best way to structure the rewards to give people the best opportunity to support the project (if they wish!) at a level they can afford. The basic starting point is can we get enough pledges to fund 1000 units at £250. There are various practical decisions we need to make after having discussed the options with Dave eg do we keep to a very straight forward offer of 4 versions of 9 car sets for £250 or do we allow pledgers to buy a shorter set? The more permutations we offer the more complicated it becomes, but it might open up the project to people not able to pledge £250, but could pledge a lower amount for a shorter set? If we do go for the option of the shorter sets (the full 9 car set would be made up of a 4 car and 5 car pack) then proportional cost of the smaller packs would have to be slightly higher to account for the extra packaging types etc. It also raises the issue of how do we deal with imbalances in the orders eg 500 of the shortened set are ordered but only 100 of the add on coaches? It all adds complications which we have to consider carefully. As Paddy says it is possible to limit the amount of each reward available, but that doesn't solve the issue of imbalances in the orders! On the issue of a limited run of 1000 vs unlimited production (should we be successful) that is up for negotiation with Dave, but the crucial thing is to get to the funding target first! We really can not emphasise enough that this only happens if enough of us are prepared to back the campaign. Ben and I will be working through a project plan and initial timeline very shortly and once we have agreed things we will annouce more details. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold scottystitch Posted August 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2014 Thanks Mike Apologies for muddying the waters, that wasn't my intention. As soon as the kickstarter page is up and running, you will have my pledge regardless. Scotty Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hello all, We are getting an idea of what people want, and glad to see we have reached 50 votes for. Where specific requests have been made we will try to incorporate them - for example the motor unit at one end seems sensible to save on DCC chips and it works in the Kato Eurostar... Please feel free to keep commenting and asking questions. Mike and I will do our best to answer them as we formulate a strategy, and where a consensus emerges about a particular aspect it will very much help to inform our decisions about both the specification of the models - working with DJM - and how we frame the Kickstarter project. Comments also keep the thread "active" here on RMWeb and will hopefully ensure new people continue to become aware of it. Regarding multiple liveries/smaller pledge levels etc etc these are all important areas that need decisions. We can see the benefits of offering smaller reward levels for those who want to support the project but don't want to commit the full £250, at the same time the point of this entire scheme is to produce an accurate, complete Pendolino train with all the correct vehicles, and to do it at a fair price. It will be difficult to frame the Kickstarter campaign in such a way that it strikes the right balance between attracting as many people as possible, but also satisfies the manufacturing requirements, but we will do our best. As Mike has said elsewhere, we cannot emphasise enough that we really need as much support as possible if, when we launch this on Kickstarter, we're going to have any chance of making it happen. The record for "modern image" N Gaugers signing up for such projects isn't good: The NGS's recent attempt to commission a modern vehicle from Bachmann (one of Carillion Autoballaster, WCRC Mk1 Pullman, Network Rail Mk2 BSO or Riviera Trains chocolate and cream Mk2 TSO) failed badly: we needed at least 350 expressions of interest (no actual cash) to proceed but got fewer than 100. Admittedly it was limited to NGS members but worth bearing in mind... There are other aspects to consider: 1) The Pendolino is *the* iconic express train of its day. It really is a must-have for anyone modelling the WCML from 2002 to the foreseeable future. Here, for N gauge, a complete, accurate train (in the manner of the Japanese style book sets) is achievable. 2) If this scheme succeeds it will create a wonderful precedent. It will create a real buzz, confidence and inertia that will almost certainly lead to us or others taking the plunge to produce different trains, for different eras. It's new, and different. None of us really knows where it could lead - so why not be in at the start of something big? cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
acko22 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hi Ben, With regards to Liveries coach sets etc, I think I good number of people will agree with keep it as simple as possible couple of different numbered sets is ok but best keep it to Virgin and 9 car! If / as / when this goes ahead like was said earlier DJM will own the tooling so if there is future want for more variation in liveries such as the Xmen scheme etc then the tooling is there! On the set size front well I for one would not need all the 9 cars but others will want my spares so I am sure a balance can be struck after purchase and deals made we are grown ups after all well most of the time! Regards Gareth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swifty11 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Does sound promising and I wish you all the luck in the world for having the guts to do it! I think it's 4 different tooled vehicles if doing an 11 Car possibly 5. Driving end coach Pantograph coach Standard/first coach Non pantograph fitted motor coach with the pantograph well Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Kato was mentioned earlier, they did the Eurostar which it could be argued was even more restricted in terms of an interest and they sold though you don't see many appearing on layouts on Rmweb or in the magazine articles. So who bought this 'iconic' model and do you need to tap into that market again with this potential 'iconic' model. There maybe a whole bunch of international collectors itching to get their hands on an 11 coach Pendolino to put into a case somewhere. If that market does exist, is it possible Kato are already on it? It's the wrong era for me but I wish you all well with this endeavour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted August 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hello Woodenhead, I agree with you about the collector market - it's not something I know a lot about; are there any publications particularly geared to them that we should target? Also, while I accept that the Pendolino will be too modern for many, I would urge anyone to consider supporting it because: 1) No money will be actually taken unless the project flies 2) I believe the models will be very saleable on ebay afterward, once people actually see them 3) While not essential, I think that If this initiative is a success it will make other such projects - perhaps for an iconic train you really do want - far more likely. 4) In a broader sense, a strong vote of confidence in the N gauge OHLE market will encourage the major manufacturers to look again at this market; a reworked 87, 90 and all new 85 may well become more likely as a result. This could be the start of something really big, or just a damp squib. So now it's down to those of us who are trying to make it happen to do our bit properly and up to British N Gauge modellers to join us. cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 So you are suggesting I speculate on this model as I could make a profit. If that is how you are going to get to 1000 sales from the 50 expressions of interest then i would be buying something for which there is no widespread demand just so 50 people get the model they desire and I would have spent money on something I didn't want and could not sell. I hope you're not really saying that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold scottystitch Posted August 17, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2014 So you are suggesting I speculate on this model as I could make a profit. If that is how you are going to get to 1000 sales from the 50 expressions of interest then i would be buying something for which there is no widespread demand just so 50 people get the model they desire and I would have spent money on something I didn't want and could not sell. I hope you're not really saying that. I don't think that's what's being said at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted August 17, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2014 I'm not even sure how you inferred that. Any thoughts on retailers Ben? Would you try and get the box shifters (or others) on board with the idea they sell their stock on at £350 or whatever? Perhaps that's the way into the collector market, particularly if you consider foreign stores. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-missy- Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hi. Just a thought, dont forget to get permission for the model and livery from Virgin. Julia. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 So you are suggesting I speculate on this model as I could make a profit. If that is how you are going to get to 1000 sales from the 50 expressions of interest then i would be buying something for which there is no widespread demand just so 50 people get the model they desire and I would have spent money on something I didn't want and could not sell. I hope you're not really saying that. I don't think anyone (except yourself) can be held responsible if you make a habit of buying stuff you don't want... Sorry, but no matter how many times I re-read that, I just don't get your point...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 No, I agree, nobody is being forced to express an interest or pledge here, those that do will each have their own reasons for doing so. For most, let's face it, the reason will be because they want one (or more) of this this specific model and know the prospect of a manufacturer making one anytime soon is remote. For some it will be a "Rule 1" purchase. Others may wish to support it because they see this model as one to potentially test (and hopefully prove) the process, making it easier and more credible for subsequent prototypes to follow a "Crowd funding" route. Of course there may also be a few wanting to take a "punt" with the hope of selling it on as a profit, especially if within the initial agreement there will be no more produced for a predetermined period of time. That's up to them too! In all cases it will only be the "backers" who will get it at £250 - which looks a seriously good price for a 9 car set. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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