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Heljan GWR 47xx Night Owl

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The same observations apply to the Bulleid light pacifics,current examples being a shade different from 34013....,and so it goes...

 

A good excuse, the summer comes sooner to the south coast, fading caused by strong sunlight affects the shade of green. The reason why the SWD regularly reversed rakes of stock round the Branksome triangle during summer time in steam days. Sorry I digress(tic) :sungum:

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A good excuse, the summer comes sooner to the south coast, fading caused by strong sunlight affects the shade of green. The reason why the SWD regularly reversed rakes of stock round the Branksome triangle during summer time in steam days. Sorry I digress(tic) :sungum:

 

Green? Green? Paint 'em black, I say!

 

Harumph, harrumph!

 

O. Keedokey.

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And reminds me of an interesting comment made at my RAF medical, many years ago, when questioned about smoking, that moderate-to-heavy smoking (which wasn't uncommon in steam days) could make ones colour perception unstable and subject to change over timescales as short as a couple of weeks.

 

Just one of the reasons I doubt that any shade can be claimed to be right, wrong or even consistent on anything where the paint had been mixed on-site.

 

There is ample anecdotal evidence that accurate weighing-out of ingredients was a less-than-universal practice among those doing the mixing. When dealing with memorised proportions, e.g. "three scoops of that, one of this and two-and-a-bit of the other", the size of the bit is likely to wander. If, also, one pigment happened to be running low, it is easy to envisage a foreman saying, "go a bit easy on that, lad, we don't get any more until next week". Result: the loco painted today won't be exactly the same colour as its classmate, painted a month ago.

 

IMHO, the only certain outcome is uncertainty; all the more so if the paint didn't always get mixed by the same man.   

 

John

 

What kind of smoking-induced fantasy is this?

 

Did you ever get to see the Swindon paintshop? Did they mix up a fresh bucket of paint every time they fixed a lamp bracket on or something?

 

It was a production line. They came out looking absolutely pristine and in exactly the same colour. The paint mixing was a professional as everything else they did in the works!

 

This colour-denial thing really has to stop.

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This colour-denial thing really has to stop.

 

I know someone who would call it "Fake news" !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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Yup, we can see why armchair pundits never get their letters anywhere near the printed page. They would only serve to tell active modellers that they are wasting their time because no one really knows what the real railway colours looked like and so nothing really matters!!! 

 

Forums are places for discussion, but to attempt to discredit over half a Century's researches by people who really did know what they were talking about is par for the course on RMweb. I always look at their profile when a gassing type hits the keyboard, and guess what....Hardly any of them show any building, painting or modelling tendencies... 

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To add to which it should never be forgotten that colour is solely an artefact of our brain. It has no absolute physical existence, which was pointedly brought home to me in the sixties when I had to learn that for physics O level examination passing purposes the Sodium 'D' lines were to be described as 'yellow', even though to me they are clearly orange. (Took me years to get to the bottom of that, and finally the knowledge that I am a divergent trichromat.)  This condition is relatively common in males, along with the better known trouble of red/green discrimination.

 

As such any psycho-active substance has the potential to alter colour perception, see 'psychedelia'. Ingest 'substances' including the legal narcotics and prescription drugs, and your perception may change (beer goggles anyone?). No guarantee, some are affected, others will not be, and the effect may not be consistent subject to subject. Many of the solvents once common to commercial degreasing and spray painting operations are psycho-active, just adding to the stew in the days past when minimising exposure was not taken too seriously... 

 

So it doesn't do to get too categorical about the accuracy of colour rendition as it's personal to your brain. For example, I have little trouble with Hornby's Brunswick green, as I see all colours a little 'warmer' (less blue) than the male population average.

 

As for young women. I once had the joyful project of looking for tetrachromats. Very, very useful people for some applications as they see into the ultraviolet. Typically this rare capability is found in young women, very rare in males. They see more. Maybe that nice girl you like the look of but she won't give you the time of day can see something she doesn't like...

 

The last bit sounds like a plot point from one of the X-Men films. You're not the real life Professor X are you?   :jester:

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What kind of smoking-induced fantasy is this?

 

Did you ever get to see the Swindon paintshop? Did they mix up a fresh bucket of paint every time they fixed a lamp bracket on or something?

 

It was a production line. They came out looking absolutely pristine and in exactly the same colour. The paint mixing was a professional as everything else they did in the works!

 

This colour-denial thing really has to stop.

 

Somebody who got to see 'the Swindon (loco) paintshop' would by now be well over a century old as it was closed by Churchward over 100 years ago as part of his economy drive and drive to get engines out of works more quickly.  Subsequently engines and tenders were painted in the shops where they were built/overhauled.  However the Carriage Works paintshop was still going strong in the early 1960s.

 

Swindon's carriage painting seems to have been pretty good, the same could not be said for engines and by BR times it was restricted to a single undercoat plus a final coat although presumably a varnish/sealant was also applied on lined engines if not on lesser classes.  If you wanted a good paintshop at a Western works the place to go was Caerphilly, which kepyt its separate paintshop right to the end.

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Swindon's carriage painting seems to have been pretty good, the same could not be said for engines and by BR times it was restricted to a single undercoat plus a final coat although presumably a varnish/sealant was also applied on lined engines if not on lesser classes.

 

So much for what the specification prescribed !

 

As has been said elsewhere more than once; what the painting spec. called for, and what came out of the works were different things entirely.

 

Quoting the spec. and providing a photo are, similarly, far from carrying the same evidential weight.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk
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Somebody who got to see 'the Swindon (loco) paintshop' would by now be well over a century old as it was closed by Churchward over 100 years ago as part of his economy drive and drive to get engines out of works more quickly.  Subsequently engines and tenders were painted in the shops where they were built/overhauled.  However the Carriage Works paintshop was still going strong in the early 1960s.

 

Swindon's carriage painting seems to have been pretty good, the same could not be said for engines and by BR times it was restricted to a single undercoat plus a final coat although presumably a varnish/sealant was also applied on lined engines if not on lesser classes.  If you wanted a good paintshop at a Western works the place to go was Caerphilly, which kepyt its separate paintshop right to the end.

 

A gentleman by the name of Rufus Stephens, as I recall.

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It is documented in a 1930's 'Railway Magazine' that the GWR was being parsimonious with its green and had been thinning it too much to make it go further. It started to go khaki or blackening after a short time in traffic and shareholders were doing the equivalent of asking question in the house.  One would think the Western learned from this. Also, I wonder what Riddles would have said had he been made aware of Swindons tactics in BR days. After all, it was Swindon that wanted to re-adopt green for everything.  I would have told the works that if it cant do the job properly, then revert to LNWR livery!   :whistle:

Edited by coachmann
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It is documented in a 1930's 'Railway Magazine' that the GWR was being parsimonious with its green and had been thinning it too much to make it go further. It started to go khaki or blackening after a short time in traffic and shareholders were doing the equivalent of asking question in the house.  One would think the Western learned from this. Also, I wonder what Riddles would have said had he been made aware of Swindons tactics in BR days. After all, it was Swindon that wanted to re-adopt green for everything.  I would have told the works that if it cant do the job properly, then revert to LNWR livery!   :whistle:

 

I don't think it made much difference post-war Larry because with some notable exceptions various sheds were so short of cleaners the engines in green soon became virtually indistinguishable from what had been painted black!  Oddly I think the Swindon built and painted diesels did a bit better as they got a coat of a red metal preservative paint (no idea what sort) before the green undercoat went on - it always looked a bit darker on the diesel bodies than it did on boiler sheathing and cab side sheets but that might have been down the size of area seen in one plane.

 

So much for what the specification prescribed !

 

As has been said elsewhere more than once; what the painting spec. called for, and what came out of the works were different things entirely.

 

Quoting the spec. and providing a photo are, similarly, far from carrying the same evidential weight.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Perhaps you could explain how it differed from the spec because as far as I know it didn't - the use of two coats was consistent Swindon practice in later BR days which suggests that at least teh works management were satisfied the job was being done correctly.

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It is documented in a 1930's 'Railway Magazine' that the GWR was being parsimonious with its green and had been thinning it too much to make it go further. It started to go khaki ........................!   :whistle:

 

Finally, you have just solved the mystery as to why Wrenn painted some locos in khaki. It was intended for the Castles but the paint tin got mixed up with the West Countries. Or maybe they too were thinning out their paint.

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I don't think it made much difference post-war Larry because with some notable exceptions various sheds were so short of cleaners the engines in green soon became virtually indistinguishable from what had been painted black!  Oddly I think the Swindon built and painted diesels did a bit better as they got a coat of a red metal preservative paint (no idea what sort) before the green undercoat went on - it always looked a bit darker on the diesel bodies than it did on boiler sheathing and cab side sheets but that might have been down the size of area seen in one plane.

 

 

Perhaps you could explain how it differed from the spec because as far as I know it didn't - the use of two coats was consistent Swindon practice in later BR days which suggests that at least teh works management were satisfied the job was being done correctly.

All of which certainly explains why the finish on preserved ex-GW engines in BR lined green is so much better than I remember even freshly cleaned ones looking when in service. 

 

I was always curious why the green on the Western's Standard Fives that had been painted at Eastleigh looked deeper and richer than locos that had come out of Swindon.....

 

John

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The last bit sounds like a plot point from one of the X-Men films. You're not the real life Professor X are you?   :jester:

Can't be, never heard of anyone of that name. Finding people with different visual capability is actually quite straightforward. You simply advertise with a message that only they can see.

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Strange how the cab, tender and splashers look lighter than the boiler and firebox, maybe I need to go to Specsavers. 

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attachicon.gif5043.jpgattachicon.gif5043-2.JPG

 

Samples of lining out on preserved Earl of Mount Edgcombe.

Subject to the colour capture & reproduction, but I can tell the difference between the two greens on Earl of Mount Edgecumbe. The cabside is more Chrome green, with the tenderside with more blue.

 

Of course, other people will have different views.

 

Happy squinting!

 

Ian.

Edited by tomparryharry

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I have mentioned this before but some years ago I found myself in the reception of Williamsons Paints at Ripon. On the wall was a panel full of different shades of green all with a small description of GW Green for a specified preservation group/railway. Transpired they had been asked to make the paint but then the next purchaser said it was wrong so they had altered for them then the next purchaser thereafter said it was wrong, and so on.

Edited by Butler Henderson

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The variation may be down to different preparation, as I would expect each area to be done at differing times. I would expect that the tender was done separately, followed by the cab and splashers etc. followed by the boiler cladding after the boiler had completed it's steam test and initial bedding in, in case it had to be removed due to teething problems.

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Cat.. pidgeons....

 

Turns out Hornby was right, GW locos are more faded than BR locos...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/deltrems/2747020016/in/[email protected]

(Not my picture, but I was on that train).

 

I could have swore that manor got lighter every weekend it was used.

I put it down to the polluting Lancashire weather, 35005 had only just arrived, the Manor had been around a while. It must have faded in the rain.

 

:-)

 

Fkcin' hell, get me out of here....

No one leaves the KGB, not even those being tortured.

 

 

*7828 was painted in an oddest shade of BR Green for several years.

Edited by adb968008
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This looks OK for GW loco's !!

 

110311-paint011.jpg

 

Brit15

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How accurate was the GW green used on Airifx locos as Tamiya Japanese Army Green is a match to that.

Edited by Butler Henderson

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The variation may be down to different preparation, as I would expect each area to be done at differing times. I would expect that the tender was done separately, followed by the cab and splashers etc. followed by the boiler cladding after the boiler had completed it's steam test and initial bedding in, in case it had to be removed due to teething problems.

 

At least the steam test will allow time to dig for some more zinc chromate and grind the last of the titanium dioxide while the painter experiments with his palette knife to get the right shade for his next brush strokes. Perhaps a little bluer on the lower half of the boiler where it doesn't catch the light from the sky?  Where's the lapis lazuli ...

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