Hornby 2015 Announcements now made

[railroadbill]

Many thanks.  I must be getting old, mixing up Beachcomber and Bentine…but you understood what I was getting at!  I'll also be bringing out Morton's book to re-read over the next few days.  It is so long since I last read it, I can't remember if he has any detail on his brake levers in it.

(Note the sad attempt to return somewhat closer to the subject of the thread…)

Hi Olivegreen,

 

A fellow fan!  Great, re-read the bit about Charlie Suet at the opera last night and couldn't stop laughing!  Bentine was also great, and I still remember his flying carpet sketch when he was dressed as an arab sitting on his carpet explaining how it flew. He put a box of chocolates on each corner, then at the command "chocs away"....

 

 

The on-thread relevence about this is that Hornby have sometimes come up with "jokey" things, Duracell tank wagon, or contemporary brand names on older vans (was there a Golden Shred one, or something like that?)  Anyway, it looks as if there are some subtle jokes in these announcements, like the Marillion names on the tank locos and so on, which are something amusing to look for. Rather like Cuneos's mouse to be  found in  his paintings.  Very 'British' humour.

 

On which note, season's greetings to all!

 

Bill

[toboldlygo]

I always thought DVT stood for Deep Vein Thrombosis...    

[Dave47549]

.

[coachmann]

Come back Mods, all is forgiven.....

[The Stationmaster]

Oh no! 

 

Are you sure about the "T" for Mk4 coaches being trailer?

I thought the Mk4 coach types were something like FO, RSB, TSOD, TSO and TSOE (which could be easily verified by someone living closer to the ECML than I).

 

Yep, the 'T' in Mk.4 passenger carrying stock is for 'tourist'.

 

We can argue over what the "T" stands for, but if it was trailer, would we not have TFO, TRSB etc? It seems more likely to me that (just like retaining the "O" for open when there are no

Mk 4 compartment coaches) it's another hangover from older times.

 

We do have TFO, TRSB etc, these are HST Trailers....

 

Of course the T in DVT is trailer. But carriage codes have never been terribly consistent.

 

Strange one, this. I myself refer to them as DVT's, but they're not, they're DLV's (Driving luggage vans) 

All fascinating stuff.  Now designations do, and have, change over the years but I do have one document relating to 'InterCity 225 trains' so I thought I would have a look to see what it has to say on the subject, it was issued in May 1991 (and seems to be fully amended up to September 1992 although there is no amendment list).

 

At one end there is a Class 91 locomtive, at the other end there is a DVT (Driving Van Trailer)

 

Intermediately there are, in order from the DVT (i.e. normally blocks end at Kings Cross)

PO (Pullman Open),  yes that is what is printed in the book

PO

SV (Service Vehicle)

TOD (Tourist Open Disabled Toilet)

TO  (Tourist Open)

TO

TO

TOE (Tourist Open End)

 

It seems to have been the case that the 'Pullman Opens' were at some time - after 1991/2 as far as the User Guide is concerned - redesignated as First Open while the various TO vehicles acquired an 'S' immediately following the 'T while the 'Service Vehicle' has quite likely been recoded as a catering vehicle.  Never having paid attention to the ends of the actual vehicles I don't know what designations or TOPS codes they carry but no doubt someone on here might hav an opportunity to do so?

[wombatofludham]

not that old chesnut again !   so before boarding did you not buy a train ticket or was it a railway ticket or is the correct parlance just ticket?   lol.    definitely a 1st world irritation that........

 

As I was on a railrover that didn't apply.  By the way, irony isn't something for smoothingy your clothesy.

[Legend]

I do wonder if the Hornby 2015 range announcement has been so underwhelming to many that it's encouraged this thread to wander around the car park of irrelevance like a wonky shopping trolley, such has been the level of off-topicness?   I mean, we've covered the meaning of the letter T and macro-economic and industrial policy in the UK since 1945, whatever next: the cultural significance of rock music to model railways?  Is China the new Milton Keynes?  Is the UK still a nation of shopkeepers since Hornby revisited their retail margins?  Can Tofu offer a more cost-effective medium for ready to run models?

 

It has been more interesting though than the main announcement.

I think the fact that there were two announcements has had an effect. Also I think people are a bit weary of Hornby statements, I mean how many years have we now heard we expect the entire range to be delivered in the year. There's the low retailers margins and Hornbys efforts to get people to buy direct and what that's doing to the model railway market leaving a sour taste.In addition for me there is no balanced range , so the folks darn sarf seem to have scored again with the Radial ,S15 and class 71 . I know there were J50s in Scotland , but once again no specific Scottish locos are proposed. If you model BR Blue there's not much in it for you either, and frankly nothing with a wow factor! Had they topped this off with a reintroduced APT then it might have been different.

[JSpencer]

I personally do not feel underwhelmed.

 

Ok there is a shortage of new former LMS, Scottish and modern image, but it is still quite a program.

 

As for timing Hormby seem very good now, in fact I think the various manufacturers compare as follows on average today:

Hornby 18 months, this year the 2-HAL and K1 beat that by a wide margin

Bachmann 24 months,

Heljan 36 months

Dapol 42 months

 

I guess Rapido will be around 12 months looking at the progress made to date, while DJ Models is yet to be determined although the O2 and J94 would hint about 20 months.

 

A problem Hornby now faces is do the annouce as soon as they intend to do a model, to hopefully avoid duplication ? Or do they announce only once considerable resources have been spent? The former would stretch the perceived lead times from annoucement to delivery, the latter means you could be gazumped.

 

Not easy.

[Fenman]

I think the fact that there were two announcements has had an effect. Also I think people are a bit weary of Hornby statements, I mean how many years have we now heard we expect the entire range to be delivered in the year. There's the low retailers margins and Hornbys efforts to get people to buy direct and what that's doing to the model railway market leaving a sour taste.In addition for me there is no balanced range , so the folks darn sarf seem to have scored again with the Radial ,S15 and class 71 . I know there were J50s in Scotland , but once again no specific Scottish locos are proposed. If you model BR Blue there's not much in it for you either, and frankly nothing with a wow factor! Had they topped this off with a reintroduced APT then it might have been different.

 

When reading those sort of posts all I can hear is Victoria Wood playing a very dumpy teenager slumped in front of the telly watching gymnastics and complaining miserably that "her on t'parallel bars is rubbish".

 

Considering large numbers of us have been forecasting Hornby's complete financial collapse/imminent bankruptcy, the fact they have produced another expansive programme is staggering.

 

Their deliveries have been frankly poor, and their estimates of delivery dates have been extraordinarily wide of the mark. But product is, finally, beginning to flow through, and the new models (if the K1 is anything to go by) seem right up to current marketplace standards, while they've also put some energy into improvements to older models that were slated when first released (eg, 4VEP - still not perfect, by a long way, but apparently a significant improvement on what came before).

 

No other company produces - or announces - such a broad range, not even Bachmann. Presumably you've also expressed how miserable you are with every other manufacturer, for failing to produce something for every single modeller? How about those Rapido guys - deliberately choosing a prototype that never went to East Anglia? What were they thinking?!

 

Paul

[Dunsignalling]

Oh no! 

 

Are you sure about the "T" for Mk4 coaches being trailer?

I thought the Mk4 coach types were something like FO, RSB, TSOD, TSO and TSOE (which could be easily verified by someone living closer to the ECML than I).

 

Yep, the 'T' in Mk.4 passenger carrying stock is for 'tourist'.

 

We can argue over what the "T" stands for, but if it was trailer, would we not have TFO, TRSB etc? It seems more likely to me that (just like retaining the "O" for open when there are no

Mk 4 compartment coaches) it's another hangover from older times.

 

We do have TFO, TRSB etc, these are HST Trailers....

 

Of course the T in DVT is trailer. But carriage codes have never been terribly consistent.

 

Strange one, this. I myself refer to them as DVT's, but they're not, they're DLV's (Driving luggage vans) 

I stand corrected on the Mk4s and have amended my post accordingly.

 

So, not only is the 'O' superflouous but the 'T' is too, in that there are are no Standard class Mk4s that don't have 2+2 seating?

 

Thanks

 

John

[dibber25]

I think the fact that there were two announcements has had an effect. Also I think people are a bit weary of Hornby statements, I mean how many years have we now heard we expect the entire range to be delivered in the year. There's the low retailers margins and Hornbys efforts to get people to buy direct and what that's doing to the model railway market leaving a sour taste.In addition for me there is no balanced range , so the folks darn sarf seem to have scored again with the Radial ,S15 and class 71 . I know there were J50s in Scotland , but once again no specific Scottish locos are proposed. If you model BR Blue there's not much in it for you either, and frankly nothing with a wow factor! Had they topped this off with a reintroduced APT then it might have been different.

There are, apparently, 170 new items/reliveries etc. Hornby's policy has long been to look at items which have performed well and do more of the same - hence the SR locos. The APT was one of the items which convinced Hornby that EMUs don't sell, so we're not likely to see that again.

CHRIS LEIGH

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...there is no balanced range , so the folks darn sarf seem to have scored again ... but once again no specific Scottish locos are proposed...

It's harsh, but here it is in crude terms: the railway modellers drawn from a population of 40 million or more South of a line through Leeds and Bradford, are always going to score over the railway modellers drawn from 4 million Scots. The businesses concerned are following the money; and larger populations are likely to yield greater opportunity.

 

Interesting comparison, we have yet to see any RTR loco specific to London, the centre of the world, and twice as populous as Scotland entire. The Heljan BoBo will be the first such release. Conversely I do believe that is a pointer to a broadening of the market, which should see some Scottish loco models emerge

['CHARD]

It's harsh, but here it is in crude terms: the railway modellers drawn from a population of 40 million or more South of a line through Leeds and Bradford, are always going to score over the railway modellers drawn from 4 million Scots. The businesses concerned are following the money; and larger populations are likely to yield greater opportunity.

 

Interesting comparison, we have yet to see any RTR loco specific to London, the centre of the world, and twice as populous as Scotland entire. The Heljan BoBo will be the first such release. Conversely I do believe that is a pointer to a broadening of the market, which should see some Scottish loco models emerge

 

In fairness to Legend, he said 'down south,' and I think received modelling wisdom means London and the 'home cunties,' or maybe London and the South East in post-NSE times.

 

A loco 'specific to London' would be frankly ridiculous, as they have to at least break out into the suburbs don't they, so I think we can allow Class 23, Class 15, Class 16.  And then add the various third-rail EMUs, and SR divisional stock.  Can't we?

['CHARD]

Oops!  

[Coryton]

I stand corrected on the Mk4s and have amended my post accordingly.

 

So, not only is the 'O' superflouous but the 'T' is too, in that there are are no Standard class Mk4s that don't have 2+2 seating?

 

 

I stand corrected on the Mk4s and have amended my post accordingly.

 

So, not only is the 'O' superflouous but the 'T' is too, in that there are are no Standard class Mk4s that don't have 2+2 seating?

 

 

It is a bit odd. But then again, if someone says TSO on here, we have a good idea what it means. "S" would need a bit more context in order to work it out.

[Mallard60022]

Just had a Christmas card from Hornby...copy below

 

Message read.."Have a good one meduck and the S15 will be with you shortly when we have escaped from all this stuff".

Nice of them wasn't it?

Sincerely, P @ 36E

 

[Ian Hargrave]

It's harsh, but here it is in crude terms: the railway modellers drawn from a population of 40 million or more South of a line through Leeds and Bradford, are always going to score over the railway modellers drawn from 4 million Scots. The businesses concerned are following the money; and larger populations are likely to yield greater opportunity.

 

Interesting comparison, we have yet to see any RTR loco specific to London, the centre of the world, and twice as populous as Scotland entire. The Heljan BoBo will be the first such release. Conversely I do believe that is a pointer to a broadening of the market, which should see some Scottish loco models emerge

Well,this year has seen the release of the P2.We already have versions of the Director D11/2 from Bachmann,the Claytons from Heljan and a variety of DMU in Scotrail liveries.

[toboldlygo]

Well,this year has seen the release of the P2.We already have versions of the Director D11/2 from Bachmann,the Claytons from Heljan and a variety of DMU in Scotrail liveries.

 

Don't forget the K1 either

[Legend]

And look at all the layouts based on Scottish prototypes , there must be a market. The point was being made that people were underwhelmed by the announcements. My point back is that if there was a bit more geographical and period coverage people may have been less underwhelmed.

 

I do remember Simon Kohler once stating that there were proportionately more modellers north of the border , possibly on yet another reintroduction of the Caley 123 or Pug

[pete_mcfarlane]

Interesting comparison, we have yet to see any RTR loco specific to London, the centre of the world, and twice as populous as Scotland entire. The Heljan BoBo will be the first such release. Conversely I do believe that is a pointer to a broadening of the market, which should see some Scottish loco models emerge

Actually it's the second RTR model of the Met Bo-Bos - Hornby did one in O gauge back in the 1920s. The early ones were powered directly by the mains, and it only had 4 wheels 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-O-gauge-electric-Metropolitan-locomotive-/251749054913?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3a9d69b9c1

[Fenman]

.... The point was being made that people were underwhelmed by the announcements. ...

Well, *some* people may have been underwhelmed.

 

Some of us were distinctly whelmed.

 

Paul

[Legend]

Well, *some* people may have been underwhelmed.

Some of us were distinctly whelmed.

Paul

But not overwhelmed lol

 

Merry Christmas!

[Budgie]

I stand corrected on the Mk4s and have amended my post accordingly.

 

So, not only is the 'O' superflouous but the 'T' is too, in that there are are no Standard class Mk4s that don't have 2+2 seating?

 

Thanks

 

John

If you drop the 'superfluous' O and T, you end up with S. That will be a non-gangwayed compartment second, then.

 

It is irrelevant that there are no Mk.4 compartment seconds. If there were, they would be coded SK. So the open coaches have to be coded SO or TSO, whether you and I like it or not.

[Mythocentric]

Well, *some* people may have been underwhelmed.

 

Some of us were distinctly whelmed.

 

Paul

 

You can add me to the latter group. I've just picked up a K1 (Gateshead's 62024 - R3243) and I'm very definitely whelmed! Well done Hornby!

 

Regards

 

Bill

[Ozexpatriate]

Since you insist

the cultural significance of rock music to model railways?

Highly on topic given the Marillion locomotives.
 

Is China the new Milton Keynes?

At first I would have asked "Is Guangzhou the new Manchester?" but that is self-evident. Perhaps better as "Is Shanghai the new Milton Keynes?"
 

Is the UK still a nation of shopkeepers since Hornby revisited their retail margins?

When has it not been since 18th century mercantilism?

That's an interesting one the answer is probably that it hasn't been for a few years now ...

Please, Steve, not so literal. Famously, (but not the originator) Napoleon said: "L'Angleterre est une nation de boutiquiers."
 

Can Tofu offer a more cost-effective medium for ready to run models?

Quorn would be preferable to Tofu as it keeps it's shape better under typical UK conditions.
It would also be unpalatable to the concrete cows in Milton Keynes.

May I suggest fruit cake? Much more shelf stable. Seasonal predatory depletion of the stock is an eminently sensible reason for purchasing more.

Or like Linda Richman* said (or was it Voltaire), "I'll give you a topic: The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman nor an empire. Discuss".

* A character played by Mike Myers in a Saturday Night Live segment called "Coffee Talk". Apparently the character was based on his mother-in-law who is in fact named Linda Richman. More topics here.