New Great Western Livery

[corneliuslundie]

I have said before that different liveries can be very useful for the "average traveller" when changing trains. You can see an Arriva train (for Wales) a mile off at Crewe which can be very useful when you haven't located a train departure board. Though it won't work so well at Cardiff in distinguishing between ATW and the new GWR livery.

 

One question about the FGW change. Is it in fact to distance Great Western Trains from the First brand? This has certainly happened with First Group buses in Somerset, where you now have to look very hard for any First Group mention. They are Buses of Somerset - all local and cuddly. I did hear that they wanted to shed a bad local image.

 

Jonathan

[brianusa]

If all the pregrouping company names were revived, it would be all right with me. At least you would have an inkling where they serve as opposed to todays corporate names which don't mean a thing to the average traveller.

 

Brian.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I think most of us nowadays are sick and tired of corporate spin putting a gloss on everything.

 

Might've worked five or ten years ago, but I think things are changing and people in general are more savvy.

[newbryford]

If all the pregrouping company names were revived, it would be all right with me. At least you would have an inkling where they serve as opposed to todays corporate names which don't mean a thing to the average traveller.

 

Brian.

 

There are certain railways where you may not want to visit either place, the Hull & Barnsley for example  (with apologies to the residents of H&B.)

 

As for the Barry Railway, is Barry the owner, driver or guard?

 

Cheers,

Mick

[wombatofludham]

Image might be important to "the business" but to the average punter it's the least important matter.  If image was important to the average punter how is it, several decades after the privatisation of the electricity businesses the locals still call Scottish Power "Manweb", or used to refer to the local Arriva buses as "the Crosville", or for that matter still keep calling Network Rail "Railtrack"?  All those images carefully crafted by expensive brand consultants completely undermined by a public who still think the electricity comes from a Board, the buses despite having a hulking great "Arriva" name on the side are still the property of the Tilling Group, or that the railways are still owned by a company whose name was synonymous with bad press and therefore burned on the memory.

 

Unless it's the slaves of pathetic designer fashions, or those blind sheep brainwashed into "brand loyalty" by slick psychological advertising, the majority of people really don't care about who runs what.  If you are waiting for a train and don't have an operator specific ticket, you'll take the first one that gets you to your destination the fastest and with a chance of a seat and won't give a monkeys if the corporate greasy pole of the operator feels decking their trains in black, blue, green or stripy paint is vital to projecting their egotistical beliefs in the shareholder value of their company to the world.  It's only important as a form of corporate knob waving to other corporate pendular swinging appendages.  Frankly, the fact my local train is "provided" by Arriva is of no importance to me, especially as I know the nice seats were paid for by the Welsh Government, the trains by British Rail and the whole operation is heavily underwritten by the Welsh Government.  Arriva have made virtually no contribution to my local service other than send a nice return on their operation back to Berlin - although they did help fund the paint the local Art Group used to paint a mural inside the shelter.  Vielen Danke Deutsche Bahn.

[Chy Mengrowyn Paul]

As previously mentioned, the new image is not First distancing themselves but a future cost saving by the DfT for a single, permanent image for each franchise with only the "operated by" lettering being changed in the future.

 

're Buses of Somerset, I understand that the local manager had a lot to do with it, wanting a local image for local pride. It was mentioned that the rest of what was First Devon, Cornwall and Mid Somerset was also to get local images but events have moved on with Devon being sold so here in Cornwall, we are being stuck with the Olympia "marmite" as the standard. Somerset is a good image and works well. Even on a 150....... .

 

Back when I was writing reports for suggestions for the Night Riviera refurbishment before the DfT got involved, I proposed the same idea for our train along with a few units and a station scheme similar to the Looe branch but hey, I'm only a minion.... !

Edited August 20, 2015 by Chy Mengrowyn Paul

[Reorte]

Image might be important to "the business" but to the average punter it's the least important matter.  If image was important to the average punter how is it, several decades after the privatisation of the electricity businesses the locals still call Scottish Power "Manweb", or used to refer to the local Arriva buses as "the Crosville", or for that matter still keep calling Network Rail "Railtrack"?  All those images carefully crafted by expensive brand consultants completely undermined by a public who still think the electricity comes from a Board, the buses despite having a hulking great "Arriva" name on the side are still the property of the Tilling Group, or that the railways are still owned by a company whose name was synonymous with bad press and therefore burned on the memory.

Which suggests that the previous lot did a much better job of it. If a lot of people still associate the railways with Railtrack and the situation back then you've got a perfect example of why image is important, because that's one that really could be done with shaking. And just on the aesthetic side smart, tidy trains and stations are more likely to result in people considering using them. That people use them and will continue to use them whatever was one of the assumptions BR often seemed to make. And not caring about how something looks usually goes along with not caring about anything else much, but conversely obvious attempts at getting very corporate identity have wound up giving me an impression of a train that's likely to be cramped and uncomfortable. The turquoise ones that seem to be heading off to Wales give the image of something rather plasticy that'll be pretty unpleasant to travel in too. I've not been on one so I've not a clue what they're like inside, but that's the subconcious impression I've got.

 

Businesses make mistakes of course but ones that routinely make big and expensive mistakes tend not to stay in business. I seriously doubt that they'd keep spending a lot of money on it if it didn't do anything for their bottom line (which of course isn't to say that they don't screw up from time to time). And even if you don't think much of it brand loyalty does exist.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Reorte

[Glorious NSE]

I fly home and usually head westwards.  Luckily I remember the GWR so FGW sounds close so off I go reasonably successfully.  Once I ended up in Weston SM instead of Plymouth due to two trains on the same platform at Reading!  But I have no idea how to get to Leeds or Northampton or anywhere like that as the LMS or LNER which more or less told you which direction they were going, are now replaced by First This or First That give little indication of their routes. Even the livery is no help so I'm for making things simple.

Actually I think the present company names do rather better than the big four at telling folk where they go(*), but I don't think it's that relevant...

 

If it was, how did anyone cope when everything was "British Rail", presumably nobody went anywhere as they were already in Britain?

 

Hang on, have we found the cause of the traffic drops that sparked Beeching and the dark years of the 70s and 80s? Numbers did go up again after parts of it were named things like Regional Railways and Intercity (names which also don't tell anyone how to get to Leeds)...

 

(*Because they aren't actually called "First This" and "First That" - try First Great Western, or First Hull Trains, or East Midlands Trains, or Abellio Greater Anglia - none of them is any worse, and some are substantially better than the grouping names in terms of what the trains do...)

[The Stationmaster]

Which suggests that the previous lot did a much better job of it. If a lot of people still associate the railways with Railtrack and the situation back then you've got a perfect example of why image is important, because that's one that really could be done with shaking. And just on the aesthetic side smart, tidy trains and stations are more likely to result in people considering using them. That people use them and will continue to use them whatever was one of the assumptions BR often seemed to make. And not caring about how something looks usually goes along with not caring about anything else much, but conversely obvious attempts at getting very corporate identity have wound up giving me an impression of a train that's likely to be cramped and uncomfortable. The turquoise ones that seem to be heading off to Wales give the image of something rather plasticy that'll be pretty unpleasant to travel in too. I've not been on one so I've not a clue what they're like inside, but that's the subconcious impression I've got.

 

Businesses make mistakes of course but ones that routinely make big and expensive mistakes tend not to stay in business. I seriously doubt that they'd keep spending a lot of money on it if it didn't do anything for their bottom line (which of course isn't to say that they don't screw up from time to time). And even if you don't think much of it brand loyalty does exist.

But interestingly the BR 'arrows of indecision' (which in reality they aren't) is one of the most widelyrecognised corporate symbols in Britain, and of course is still in use to direct folk to railway stations etc.

 

As far as Railtrack and Network Rail are concerned the former was terrible and the latter has a massive amount of catching up to do.  But strangely those on the far left are calling for NR to be nationalised (clearly they don't read the 'papers) while one commentator in 'The Daily Telegraph' has this week held it up as a good example for 'not nationalising the railways' - presumably he doesn't read newspapers either, and he actually claimed to have worked in the railway industry (on a catering trolley perhaps?)

[Reorte]

But interestingly the BR 'arrows of indecision' (which in reality they aren't) is one of the most widelyrecognised corporate symbols in Britain, and of course is still in use to direct folk to railway stations etc.

That's certainly true, which is why it's lived on. I think that there are two separate issues here. The first is useful recognition, the second one is more purely aesthetic. I think that it's hard to deny the effect of the first (both for good and bad). The second is clearly far more subjective but I very strongly feel that it's important, partially for the overall impression it gives (dirty trains put people off if nothing else, even if their functionality is unaffe) and partially simply because a world in which only function is considered would be a very miserable one to live in indeed, even if everything worked perfectly. It's easy to say that it doesn't matter for X or Y and there's plenty of other things to fulfil that role, but it's often the sum of them that matters. Obviously it's no use spending loads of effort on something that looks great but is as useful as a chocolate fireguard but I don't understand people who seem to advocate the opposite extreme.

[Ron Ron Ron]

....Luckily I remember the GWR ......

.....I have no idea how to get to Leeds or Northampton or anywhere like that as the LMS or LNER which more or less told you which direction they were going, .....

 

Lucky to remember the GWR?

Yes you are, as only 15% of the British population (I realise you're not included here) have survived to be old enough to remember likewise.

 

LMS & LNER ...who, what ?????

How many of the UK's population have even heard of them?

 

Some sobering stats...

 

More than 25% of the UK population were born after the 90's privatisation of British railways.

If you include those who were under age 5 at the time (1996) and probably can't remember BR, that percentage is about 31%. Nearly a third!!!

 

Almost two thirds of the UK population were born after the end of BR steam.

 

Approaching 75% of the UK population were born after 1960.

 

 

Food for thought?

 

 

.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Ron Ron Ron

[wombatofludham]

Given Arriva Trains Wales branded trains have been lent to Anglia and didn't confuse the patrons of Cromer too much, Central liveried 150s have operated for Northern and the locals in Bolton didn't refuse to catch the train because it was the wrong colour, and Anglia, Trans Pennine and Midland Mainline liveried trains all ran on Central services for a while without causing undue panic at New Street, I still maintain most people couldn't give a fig about the colour of the train.

 

This was backed up with research on competing bus services which showed that, unless a person had an operator specific pass or ticket, most people caught the first bus which came up to the stop going their way, regardless of operator, or for that matter vehicle presentation.

 

Having worked in public transport in the field of aesthetic and architectural design I believe a good standard of design and presentation is essential in all aspects of public transport.  As a philosophy, I don't believe public transport should be second best when car designers, shop and office developers and airlines and airports spend huge sums on aesthetics as a marketing tool.  For far too long, public transport was in a siege mentality caused by a reaction to the increase in vandalism and cost-cutting, leading to such monstrosities as brick shelters and glass fibre slash-proof bus seats.  A good, unified branding that is easy to understand, can be worked into marketing and publicity, easy to read, simple and concise, and yes, attractive and appealing is part of that package but, and it is a but, the majority of people don't really make a conscious decision to recognise a corporate branding.  It helps at multi operator stations to an extent but the people of Greater Manchester, who would have seen Central liveried trains working Central trains services in the past, didn't seem to be too confused when Central liveried trains turned up on their Northern services a couple of years back.   

 

Back on topic though, I still feel the new GWR livery will become quite dull after a while especially when the whole fleet is so bedecked and the shine starts to wear off the paint.  It'll be fresh and interesting at first but after a while it will seem too austere.  That said the interior plans - which let's face it is more important than the outside as it is where Joe and Joanna Normal will plonk their bums for several hours - do look good and if the rest of the journey experience, such as loos, catering, ticketing and staffing, are improved then frankly the outside colour isn't that vital.

[Glorious NSE]

I still maintain most people couldn't give a fig about the colour of the train.

I would agree with that statement in it's most literal sense - I would disagree in another, as you say yourself "attractive and appealing" is important too, and colour is a big part of that - but to be honest I suspect we're all somewhat talking cross purposes with not dis-similar views. 

[The Stationmaster]

Given Arriva Trains Wales branded trains have been lent to Anglia and didn't confuse the patrons of Cromer too much, Central liveried 150s have operated for Northern and the locals in Bolton didn't refuse to catch the train because it was the wrong colour, and Anglia, Trans Pennine and Midland Mainline liveried trains all ran on Central services for a while without causing undue panic at New Street, I still maintain most people couldn't give a fig about the colour of the train.

 

This was backed up with research on competing bus services which showed that, unless a person had an operator specific pass or ticket, most people caught the first bus which came up to the stop going their way, regardless of operator, or for that matter vehicle presentation.

 

Having worked in public transport in the field of aesthetic and architectural design I believe a good standard of design and presentation is essential in all aspects of public transport.  As a philosophy, I don't believe public transport should be second best when car designers, shop and office developers and airlines and airports spend huge sums on aesthetics as a marketing tool.  For far too long, public transport was in a siege mentality caused by a reaction to the increase in vandalism and cost-cutting, leading to such monstrosities as brick shelters and glass fibre slash-proof bus seats.  A good, unified branding that is easy to understand, can be worked into marketing and publicity, easy to read, simple and concise, and yes, attractive and appealing is part of that package but, and it is a but, the majority of people don't really make a conscious decision to recognise a corporate branding.  It helps at multi operator stations to an extent but the people of Greater Manchester, who would have seen Central liveried trains working Central trains services in the past, didn't seem to be too confused when Central liveried trains turned up on their Northern services a couple of years back.   

 

Back on topic though, I still feel the new GWR livery will become quite dull after a while especially when the whole fleet is so bedecked and the shine starts to wear off the paint.  It'll be fresh and interesting at first but after a while it will seem too austere.  That said the interior plans - which let's face it is more important than the outside as it is where Joe and Joanna Normal will plonk their bums for several hours - do look good and if the rest of the journey experience, such as loos, catering, ticketing and staffing, are improved then frankly the outside colour isn't that vital.

However you have overlooked one area which many senior people in the industry, even back in BR days in the late 1960s, thought might be important and which some BR managers clearly believed to be important - and that is the matter of staff feeling they belong to something which is different and/or special.  in other words they having something with which to identify.  The original use of the Inter-City 'raspberry ripple' livery had very much that effect while the BR pinnacle was probably Chris Green' s Network Southeast 'mobile fairground' accompanied by striking changes to station colours but which really spelt out 'we mean business'.

 

The same has happened successfully with some of the late nationalised and various private franchisee liveries.  While I don't much like them as liveries Virgin has been very successful with developing this sort of 'brand identity' among its staff, Great Western arguably so although spoilt by changes made too frequently, GNER very successfully so.  

 

Now some of this also reflects on the passengers' views such as the perception of just about everything going down hill after GNER lost out on the ECML franchise or the inevitable shabbiness (accompanied by abysmal cleaning standards) which is my experience of Abeillo's tenure on Anglia  (interestingly my recent experience of Abeillo's involvement with Scotrail projected a very different image of their management).  Thus livery, and all that goes with it, can be an important thing in the way it impacts on staff and this can perhaps be seen on GW now - FGW will soon be dead, there will be a new franchise which will be GWR and everyone, staff particularly, need to realise that there is a change and that some things have moved on.

 

Having spent many years working in the railway industry I long ago saw how these things can work (and how they can fail) but you are right in one respect - the vast majority of passengers probably don't care what colour their train is painted, what they want is for it to be clean, to have comfortable (and ideally spacious) seating, and to run on time, while many of them want it to have clean and usable toilet facilities (a lesson Crossrail are ignoring, probably to their cost where they are a choice compared with something better - so maybe theirs is a livery which will result in some people not joining their trains?  And of course they are no doubt running the risk that certain areas will far too soon begin to smell of pee - which will no doubt put folk off even more). Which shows how livery could have an influence on passengers - the train might be monochromatic dark green, shiny or dull, but it will most likely have a toilet compared with the more brightly liveried Crossrail train which hasn't got a toilet.

Edited August 20, 2015 by The Stationmaster

[Peter Kazmierczak]

There is something to be said for having a clear, straightforward livery scheme that will stand the test of time. This has a "quality" look to me.

 

 

However, I'm sure passengers will still get on one of these if it pulled-up at the stop.

 

Edited August 20, 2015 by Peter Kazmierczak

[Chy Mengrowyn Paul]

Regardless of colour, a toilet will still get dirty 5 minutes into the first trip of the day and people will still complain !

[Reorte]

Some sobering stats...

 

More than 25% of the UK population were born after the 90's privatisation of British railways.

If you include those who were under age 5 at the time (1996) and probably can't remember BR, that percentage is about 31%. Nearly a third!!!

 

Almost two thirds of the UK population were born after the end of BR steam.

That's very scary! (I fit somewhere between the third and two thirds). Another scary one is that it'll be, erm, 2021 (only 6 years) before we've had privatisation for as long as the Big Four existed.

[Glorious NSE]

That's very scary! (I fit somewhere between the third and two thirds). Another scary one is that it'll be, erm, 2021 (only 6 years) before we've had privatisation for as long as the Big Four existed.

It's already been around longer than the steam era under BR...

[lmsforever]

I fit the category that can just remember the LNER and the years after and the awful rolling stock and dirty locos and now thank goodness ride around in reasonable rolling stock that is kept clean (yes on Chiltern they do)so it is progress.Agree that average passengers don't care about the colour of their train all they want is on tme,clean and one day decent fares!

[WCML100]

As previously mentioned, the new image is not First distancing themselves but a future cost saving by the DfT for a single, permanent image for each franchise with only the "operated by" lettering being changed in the future.

're Buses of Somerset, I understand that the local manager had a lot to do with it, wanting a local image for local pride. It was mentioned that the rest of what was First Devon, Cornwall and Mid Somerset was also to get local images but events have moved on with Devon being sold so here in Cornwall, we are being stuck with the Olympia "marmite" as the standard. Somerset is a good image and works well. Even on a 150....... .

Back when I was writing reports for suggestions for the Night Riviera refurbishment before the DfT got involved, I proposed the same idea for our train along with a few units and a station scheme similar to the Looe branch but hey, I'm only a minion.... !

Im sure i have read further back in this thread that this is NOT DfT orientated but First's decision?

[Banger Blue]

Apparently it all started with a chat, over a cup of Tea, in Par!

[Chy Mengrowyn Paul]

You have had a free tea bag too !

[159220]

As previously mentioned, the new image is not First distancing themselves but a future cost saving by the DfT for a single, permanent image for each franchise with only the "operated by" lettering being changed in the future.

 

Sorry to correct you, but the gWr rebranding by First Great Western has been a First lead project which has been planned for a considerable time, it is seen as a perfect opportunity to draw a line under the past and move into a great looking future for the GWML. I am not publicly allowed to say who my source is due to Chatham House Rules, but I can assure you this is not DfT lead.

 

DfT would see the Class 800/801 dull grey! And might still insist on this! 800/3 shall be gWr branded.

[brianusa]

Lucky to remember the GWR?

Yes you are, as only 15% of the British population (I realise you're not included here) have survived to be old enough to remember likewise.

 

 

 

I would venture to say that there is a diminishing majority who remember the GWR.  I was thirteen when it disappeared but being an avid locospotter before Ian Allan and his books came on the scene, I saw and rode on GW trains.  Being so young at the time didn't preclude shed bashes even during the war and the ability to see long withdrawn engine.  Western Region was a bit easier with the ability to get around better and further afield.  I am not the only one whose interest is still in trains and probably not the oldest so there are others to whom the GW is fondly remembered

 

In this day and age, if you're lucky, age is only a number and a lifetime hobby is worth every minute.  Did I mention my first layout was a Dublo SNG set in 1939!

 

Brian.

[Martino]

Branding and image do have a great effect on the public, even if they not consciously aware. It has been know for generations that if you want to boost business for your corner shop, repaint it!

 

Despite the perception that airlines are chosen for their fares or schedules, image and brand have a great deal to do with it, and can be measured on their balance sheets.

 

My own company in the accommodation business (regrettably I need to protect the innocent here!) decided a change of name and image would be good, only to find out that the new image was not appreciated or trusted in public perception. The change was made backwards, but confusion continues.

 

Brands like Coke and Pepsi are masters at their image, and make constant small and subtle (and expensive) tweaks that seriously affect their performance, yet the average consumer may not consciously recognize the change.