New Great Western Livery

[The Stationmaster]

Sounds like quite a good idea - picking up on the 'we're building a Greater West' theme which has been around for a year or so in connection with electrification etc.  Let's make no mistake there is a major task of transition occurring on a large part of the former GWR network and I don't see it as a bad idea to extend the promotion of that change to include the trains and their contents (although taking 1st Class out of 165 units does seem a bit contradictory when you listen to that video.

 

Thus far the franchise part of the Western - in the shape of FGW - hasn't done a bad job at all in coping with the major changes.  the arrangements and publicity about them during the major rebuilding of Reading - not just the station - have been handled extremely well and stand in stark contrast to the shambles that was London Bridge at one time and don't forget too that this is as much about the staff who are making the change work as it is about any promotion of the way the franchisee is handling that huge change.  The message is that they are managing change and I don't blame them one bit for shouting about it.  

 

My only complaint - it's the wrong shade of green but actually notwithstanding that shortcoming it doesn't look too bad at all in workaday reality.

[HillsideDepot]

 

Rebranding costs fancy money.  I'm sure it's all been accounted for somewhere.  I question whether it was really necessary at this point in time.

 

I'd suggest that this is the perfect time to rebrand. The incoming Thames EMU fleet isn't in First Great Western livery, so will need a repaint, the new High Speed fleet doesn't exist yet, but will need a coat of paint of one colour or another, the Turbo fleet is already undergoing overhaul, including a repaint (as the plain blue ones show). I doubt we'll see many of the HSTs painted green, (although looking at a few sets last weekend, they are looking tired and in need of some attention) as the SETs approach and the 125s head north of the border.

 

With uniforms there is probably a full issue every two years (I think that's what we had on the buses, at least), so if it is the appropriate year, that is probably nil cost. Likewise publicity gets revised frequently, so once the templates are done it's business as usual for the designers albeit picking green elements rather than blue.

 

Sure the hardened, fed-up commuter probably won't see it that way, (I sometimes wonder if personal magic carpets running free of charge would please them!) but for a good proportion of travellers the new image will be a sign that things are changing. 

 

Having said all that, I'll wait until I see the new livery for real before I decide if I like it, I'm definitely in the "not sure" category after looking at the various photos. 

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

Cynical suggestion for new " rebranding" FGW livery. How about "crimson blush" after last night's debacle with Cardiff-bound trains ? "We underestimated" appears to be the adopted line...What an image of the UK to show Irish and Canadian Rugby fans !

[The Stationmaster]

Cynical suggestion for new " rebranding" FGW livery. How about "crimson blush" after last night's debacle with Cardiff-bound trains ? "We underestimated" appears to be the adopted line...What an image of the UK to show Irish and Canadian Rugby fans !

The historic pattern of travel to rugby internationals in Cardiff is for most folk to travel on the day of the match (hence there have been major problems at Paddington & Bristol - and probably elsewhere - today).  FGW have stated that they arranged an extra 8,000 seats today (routes not specified) and are putting on an extra 1,500 due to overcrowding.  But I'm really left wondering what more they could do - today they are running 6 specials from Paddington 3 of which are full load (455 tons) loco hauled trains (for which they would have to hire in stock and locos and possibly even crews) plus one from Swindon to Cardiff and several from Bristol and Salisbury so they quite clearly have done an awful lot by as good as doubling the number of trains from London alone.

 

Regrettably the simple fact is that the railway industry no longer has a bottomless pit of resources to cater for major sporting events and if passenger (numbers) demand exceeds supply then trains will be crowded and tempers will fray.  No doubt as ever everybody except those who actually have to do the job of conjuring resources out of thin air will be full of advice on how to do it and how to make extremely accurate estimates of the number of people who will travel (tee shirts are available). 

[Gwiwer]

I do agree with Mike's comments above but as we are fast approaching a time when there will be surplus Mk3 ex-HST vehicles no longer required for traffic perhaps it is time to create a "Strategic reserve" once more.  BR IC sector effectively did that with Mk1 stock which was well past its normal use-by date but gained a life extension overhaul, new interiors and raspberry ripple livery.  Several rakes IIRC ran weekday peak duties and weekend reliefs until the advent of mandatory central door locking and Pendolini saw them retired.

 

What would it take to create a central pool of ex-HST cars available for spot hire for major sporting and other events, to cover intermittent need for additional trains when diversions are in place and for charter use?

[Supaned]

for a start they'd need buffers at the outer ends (assuming fixed rakes) and the auxilliary equipment rewiring and /or converting from HST 415v 3 phase ETS to "conventional" loco supplied ETS , unless they convert generator vans to provide a 415v supply (or drag round a power car for the same) 

Edited September 20, 2015 by Supaned

[darrel]

A lot of the HSTS are going to scotrail to replace class 170s.

However if they kept some as suggested you would end up with the issue of drivers having to drive tm at least once every 6 months to keep up there compancy or else you will end up with trains and no one passed to drive them

[Gwiwer]

Once every six months is no big deal.  Keep a number of compete sets (possibly standard-only, catering only by trolley if at all) and have some rostered for West of England relief work Easter to late summer.  That will cover most of the requirements for familiarity.  Factor in a few major off-season events (for example Christmas happens every year and always places a strain on resources) and you virtually have a guarantee of maintaining knowledge.

[corneliuslundie]

Sorry, but this is where BR was at one time, with a large part (I seem to remember 14%) of total Western Region passenger income being absorbed to maintain rolling stock which was used only a few times a year. Try reading "Summer Saturdays in the West". These days, apart apparently from commuter services (which is why these TOCs promote off-peak travel), stock has to earn its keep and that means intensive use. These days there aren't even the sidings to hold spare stock.

[Reorte]

Sorry, but this is where BR was at one time, with a large part (I seem to remember 14%) of total Western Region passenger income being absorbed to maintain rolling stock which was used only a few times a year. Try reading "Summer Saturdays in the West". These days, apart apparently from commuter services (which is why these TOCs promote off-peak travel), stock has to earn its keep and that means intensive use. These days there aren't even the sidings to hold spare stock.

The world where "barely enough to scrape by day to day" is called "efficient". A situation has been created where it has to earn its keep through intensive use. Was that the right move? Obviously you can't go too far in the opposite direction; one extreme or the other rarely works well, but it does feel like we're at one extreme.

[The Stationmaster]

The world where "barely enough to scrape by day to day" is called "efficient". A situation has been created where it has to earn its keep through intensive use. Was that the right move? Obviously you can't go too far in the opposite direction; one extreme or the other rarely works well, but it does feel like we're at one extreme.

Such is the amount of money tied up in rolling stock the situation is that any financially minded organisation has little choice but to tailer its assets (owned, leased, or hired) to workload plus maintenance requirements.  The latter can give a fiddle factor by - for example using split exams to avoid stopping sets too long for their big exams and thus potentially making them available for peak traffic days or otherwise planning maintenance to give the same result.  But for most railways/operators, except those who seem to care little about utilising their assets (e.g SNCF), there really is no other choice because the costs are simply too high.

 

And of course it isn't 'barely enough to scrape by day to day' - it is a fleet size that takes into account planned availability and creates enough units or whatever to cover the workload.  No 'scraping by' - provided the fleet delivers planned availability and reliability there will be no problems, if it fails to deliver what it should then someone has to sort it - that's what they are paid to do.  I have worked, in one way or another, with railways/operators who seem between them to have tried or be using just about every variant you can think of ranging from one bunch who planned their services with no reference at all to achievable availability but simply told the engineers what it would have to be, to others who build in so much spare (they're called SNCF) you'd think Dr Beeching had never been born, and various shades in between.  Oddly in terms of overall service reliability there was little to choose between them all because even SNCF can't stable a reserve TGV everywhere which might (in their terms) need one.  Just for info, and it might have changed, but SNCF practice for 'hot spares' was to provide 100% cover for new trains & services for several weeks, i.e. one traffic diagram so one 'hot spare'.

 

The problem with largely, and increasingly, unit worked railways is that you can't stand simply maintained coaches in sidings and forget about them until you want them.  Trains with traction packages hung underneath them need regular checks and maintenance, even if they're doing little or nothing and that does - maybe(?) - make it more difficult to do the job economically.  And if you don't do it economically who pays?

[WCML100]

So what is happening with the scotrail 170's that are being displaced by the western hst sets that are heading up north?

[HillsideDepot]

Two photos of today's "bin-bag express" on the Devon Diesels topic which are relevant here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/97748-devon-diesel-era-photo-record/?p=2026503

[brianusa]

I do agree with Mike's comments above but as we are fast approaching a time when there will be surplus Mk3 ex-HST vehicles no longer required for traffic perhaps it is time to create a "Strategic reserve" once more.  BR IC sector effectively did that with Mk1 stock which was well past its normal use-by date but gained a life extension overhaul, new interiors and raspberry ripple livery.  Several rakes IIRC ran weekday peak duties and weekend reliefs until the advent of mandatory central door locking and Pendolini saw them retired.

 

What would it take to create a central pool of ex-HST cars available for spot hire for major sporting and other events, to cover intermittent need for additional trains when diversions are in place and for charter use?

Seems like any reasonable question these days has a lot of negative answers mainly due to cost. Previous companies including BR had locos, wagons and coaches available for such reasons and they were happy(?) to [provide the service. In my train spotting days, it was ages before some locos left the shed after standing cold. Certainly, they needed attention just like modern diesel engines but surely this is not insurmountable even in todays tightwad environment. There will surely be a contradictory reply!

 

Brian.

[Reorte]

Seems like any reasonable question these days has a lot of negative answers mainly due to cost. Previous companies including BR had locos, wagons and coaches available for such reasons and they were happy(?) to [provide the service. In my train spotting days, it was ages before some locos left the shed after standing cold. Certainly, they needed attention just like modern diesel engines but surely this is not insurmountable even in todays tightwad environment. There will surely be a contradictory reply!

The post above about 14% of revenue being spent on stock not used very often at all suggests that they weren't happy with it, and we've now got a world where the costs involved in doing that are even greater. The question still remains is whether that's an unavoidable change or whether it's due to an overall improvement but that's a downside that's outweighed by the upsides and that there's not a better alternative that gives both.

[newbryford]

I do agree with Mike's comments above but as we are fast approaching a time when there will be surplus Mk3 ex-HST vehicles no longer required for traffic perhaps it is time to create a "Strategic reserve" once more.  

 

Problem is that the Strategic Reserve of locos hiding away in a Welsh Mountain (or similar) doesn't have train air brakes or ETS...................

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Gwiwer]

I believe no problem is insurmountable if enough resources are directed toward its solution.  

 

Rolling stock costs money and there are spot-hire operators out there who make money by renting their trains on an as-required and sometimes short-notice basis.  If a major franchisee were to realise they had an imminent embarrassment on the scale of Cardiff then were those (or other) spot-hirers to be able to assist, and assuming paths could be made available which I grant is not always the case, then more additional trains might have been run for the event in question.  And more could be made available for future events and peak-traffic days.

 

The rolling stock doesn't have to stand idle for months.  At the right price there might be an interest in charters from a non-enthusiast market.  That market has been killed off because there is no stock available to service requests, by and large, though there are some honourable exceptions.  

[newbryford]

The first GWR green HST makes it's way east for the full unveiling tomorrow. The cast logo is covered up.

A view of one of the Mk3's

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited September 20, 2015 by newbryford

[Gwiwer]

From the National Union of Train Spotters (NUTS) : 

 

 

 

Where are the numbers now?  

 

Our members have endured years of struggling to find them on various First / Great Western Trains liveries and will be obliged to consider industrial action if we still cannot see them readily.  This action may or may not include:-

1.  Running up and down 
2.  Waving arms in the air
3.  Muttering something unintelligible 
4.  Spilling our Fanta
5.  Foaming at the mouth
6.  Yelling randomly 
7.  Peering into the pit
8.  Gazing into space
9.  Accidentally hitting someone else with our backpacks
10. Showering

 

8.  

[ForestPines]

I notice the CIS systems at Temple Meads have all been changed over this morning ready for the launch - "Great Western Railway" on the announcements and "GWR" on the departure boards.

[big jim]

The first GWR green HST makes it's way east for the full unveiling tomorrow. The cast logo is covered up.

A view of one of the Mk3's

 

Cheers,

Mick

Don't think much of that big black union jack logo on the powercar

[The Stationmaster]

The first GWR green HST makes it's way east for the full unveiling tomorrow. The cast logo is covered up.

A view of one of the Mk3's

 

Cheers,

Mick

Making its way east but actually heading westwards (unless Single Line Working was in operation - it's on the Down line!

 

I believe no problem is insurmountable if enough resources are directed toward its solution.  

 

Rolling stock costs money and there are spot-hire operators out there who make money by renting their trains on an as-required and sometimes short-notice basis.  If a major franchisee were to realise they had an imminent embarrassment on the scale of Cardiff then were those (or other) spot-hirers to be able to assist, and assuming paths could be made available which I grant is not always the case, then more additional trains might have been run for the event in question.  And more could be made available for future events and peak-traffic days.

 

The rolling stock doesn't have to stand idle for months.  At the right price there might be an interest in charters from a non-enthusiast market.  That market has been killed off because there is no stock available to service requests, by and large, though there are some honourable exceptions.  

 

But that is exactly what FGW did - clearly they hired in (as already explained) several sets of stock plus, probably, the locos and crews to work them.  The hire market is not an inexhaustible source and there are other demands on the limited amount of stock which is available.  FGW ran 2 trains per hour from London to Cardiff - either HSTs or (judging by the timings) maximum load loco hauled trains and I'm not really sure what on earth they could have done more than that.  Where are these extra resources supposed to come from?  There's probably the equivalent of a decent length set of coaches at Southall most of the time and the next nearest are a lot further away so its locos and crews to get them in position (=cost) as well as the actual running of them as additional trains so it no doubt cost FGW a pretty penny although obviously they hopefully covered their costs.

 

The crowds seem to have been exceptional by any measure and it sounds as if even the normal return queueing arrangements at Cardiff were under strain after the match - and that is a well planned and regular operation which normally works well as a control system to keep crowds off the platforms.  Don't forget that for some years at the end of its existence BR only had three charter sets available nationally plus a few spare vehicles which would hopefully make up a short rake, anything else in terms of strengthening a service had to some out of the stock that was there to run the booked service.  As it happens some stock is available on Saturdays outside the summer but again is it in the right place and can it be got to where it's needed, do the crews know the road and/or traction?  For example FGW now has very limited loco knowledge for the simple reason that it has very little loco hauled work and that is very restricted in terms of traction used - handling a loco hauled train with an unfamiliar brake on an unfamiliar loco is a long way removed from driving an HST even if road knowledge is good.

 

And of course there is a regular charter market but it is not huge although a couple of operators seem to survive in it and it is probably - in terms of revenue - making far more from non-enthusiasts than from enthusiasts.  If anybody is so keen as to require coaching sets lying around and locos available to pull them plus men with the knowledge to drive them I suggest they try it - around 20 years back I did a lot in the spot hire market and I knew just how big it was and what it might involve, and I was charging £180 a day for Drivers back then plus several hundred for a loco; it'll be a lot more now I suspect.

[HillsideDepot]

In respect of the capacity issues at Cardiff, regardless of how much rolling stock is available, I wonder what the capacity of Cardiff General Central actually is. Not in terms of train paths, although that is of course relevant, but in terms of passenger flow. It's not as if Great Western have the station to themselves. I'm sure Arriva Trains Wales were at capacity too, with extra units in multiple on scheduled trains and possibly additional services too. Maybe FGW should have made all trains reservation only - but no doubt that would have been wrong in the eyes of the travelling public (although I don't suppose any turned up at the stadium expecting to get a ticket on the day).

 

Still, back to the new GWR livery, anyone seen any pictures from the launch today? Local media seems to only have a man polishing a GWR sign outside a factory unit and an artist's impression of a green SET so far.

[Gwiwer]

No launch pictures here, which isn't surprising as they would likely only come via such as this and other enthusiast-type sites.  It's hardly going to make the news down under when a train is painted a different colour (coat got, tin hat on back-order!)

 

However some traction (pun intended) in the media regarding the apparent "Billion pounds" going into GWR investment.  Most of that will be Government money of course.  Relatively little if any would be First Group money except that they would have to cover the costs of rebranding, surely?

 

Judgement reserved here.  I haven't seen the livery in the flesh yet.  I have had very mixed experiences of the franchise over the past few years but slightly favouring the negative arising from train failures, capacity issues and a distinct lack of good customer service at times when it has perhaps been most needed.  

[paulbb]

More pertinently, how much did FGW pay design consultants for the livery/logo? From the limited number

of images seen  it looks a little dull and suffers from the some problem as Grand Centrals HST sets;

from a distance the train looks like a featureless, windowless dark tube.