Network Rail upgrade delayed by government

[The Stationmaster]

There is a rumour going around (and I stress a rumour) that Balfour Beatty are about to pull out of the NW electrification imminently.

 

If so, an important team will be disbanded and dispersed. Difficult / impossible to get such a team together again when they have all gone different ways / industries.

 

Brit15

Balfour Beatty are doing Crossrail work as well - on the GWML side (and seem to be going very slowly considering when they first got on site).

 

With serious investment in revamped 73s, surely there's a case for quietly dropping DC/AC conversion of the middle bit of the Waterloo-Weymouth route, and simply electrifying Basingstoke-Reading as third rail? As Freightliners via Oxford have to run round at Reading, an engine change from 73 to 66 at Reading should not be too much of a problem?

 

Money saved and no OLE engineers required....

Reading - Basingstoke is tied up with the FGW fleet plan and cascades for GW electrification although it is currently scheduled to be the last part of the suburban network to be done.

 

Freightliners via Oxford (from Southampton) have very rarely had to run-round at Reading - I can recall it happening with a couple of trains quite a while back although i can't remember the cause - possibly a broken rail or major failure in some pointwork.  The normal situation when the booked route isn't available - as during some of the Reading possessions - is to divert them with most going GWML to Acton and then via Acton Wells (which could get interesing once Crossrail is happening!)

I don't think Freightliners from Southampton to the Midlands, via Oxford, have to run round at Reading; they use Reading West Curve and then go under the Up and Down Mains via a new fly-over/dive-under. The West Curve already had masts erected when I went past last weekend.

Some of the masts on the curve have been there for over a year.

[Titan]

Balfour Beatty are doing Crossrail work as well - on the GWML side (and seem to be going very slowly considering when they first got on site).

 

I know why too.  And it is not the fault of Balfour Beatty. I can't say any more...

[kenw]

So 8,417,000 x 1,000 Sterling would be over 8B Sterling in rail  investment in Greater London. Give over....

 

I’d like to see everyone from around the country try commuting into London for just one week, any week.

 

Sorry, but please look up "per capita" or "give over" commenting on posts you don't understand.

 

And I'd like to see everyone from around London try commuting into a Northern city, any Northern city, on a 30 year old 4-wheeled 'Pacer' train for just one week, any week - there'd be riots!

[kenw]

Meridians ....

Although they are superficially similar to Voyagers, I understand the electrical systems are highly incompatible so a lot of work would be needed to transfer coaches between them. 

 

Mk3 loco hauled / HST trailers are also electrically incompatible, but conversions have been done

 

I don't think this actually affects the rolling stock situation too much.  Great Western frees up a lot of 15x/16x DMUs which are useable on non-electrified routes elsewhere.  Transpennine would only release a few of these classes from Northern locals that use the same route, along with most of Class 185 which are far from life-expired but too heavy and expensive for most other DMU routes.  Midland Main Line electrification frees up precisely zero of classes 150-170, and could only release a handful even with revisions to East Midlands local services.  It would displace class 222, which have at least 20 years remaining life and are even harder to re-deploy than 185s.  In the worst case the small number of HSTs still on the route would have to be upgraded to meet post-2020 regulations, or the trailers replaced by upgraded ones from Western or ECML.  It's also possible some of the 2020 compliance dates could be deferred to avoid expensive work on units with short remaining lives. 

 

Perhaps Scotrail would have taken the displaced 185s or 222s for their long distance routes in place of their, by then, 45 year old HSTs.

 

Retaining a few HSTs is hardly worst case, much prefer them anyway, but for upgrading to meet post-2020 regulations, the displaced Western trailers are heading for Scotland, and ECML ones, as far as I know, aren't planed for upgrading

[Edwin_m]

Retaining a few HSTs is hardly worst case, much prefer them anyway, but for upgrading to meet post-2020 regulations, the displaced Western trailers are heading for Scotland, and ECML ones, as far as I know, aren't planed for upgrading

No they probably aren't, but upgrading a few more rakes for 2020 compliance is tiny in the grand scheme of things. 

[richierich]

I've read through, and the bit people don't appreciate, is today the railway is directed probably more than ever before by the DfT and ORR, who tell NR what infrastructure works / management to do; ROSCOs in terms of Rolling Stock goes where; TOCs in terms of service provision, what they can / cannot do. The only parts who are more like private businesses are open access operators and FOCs. But the DfT & ORR is directed by the politicians, and also NR is now on the Government's books, I guess the civil servants under their political masters have to seen to be implementing the prevailing will of whatever colour Government has been elected. So short term political whims, in a long term infrastructure business are not really very helpful, which we can also observe in the Electricity Generation Industry. At present reading the railway press, NR are seen to be failing in terms of Enhancement project delivery and asset stewardship of the existing infrastructure, so I'd guess there is a cauldron of pressure building for NR to be restructured.

 

The more worrying part is the 25-40% budget cuts proposed by the Treasury to all departments except Health & Education. I guess this bow wave and its implications has yet to hit the rail industry (now it might be possible to legally challenge this against an agreed CP5 budget settlement). So the worst is probably not over yet . . .

[Mike Storey]

I agree - the impact would be in CP6, if there is to be a significant one (which I am beginning to doubt given the ORR is already demanding efficiencies on an average par with the Treasury).

 

Additionally, NR continue to seek separate, capital funding streams, off the Treasury books, based on something akin to PFI, as per the QEII bridge arrangement, which, as far as I could see at the time, gives a net debt of 0. The big question for funders will be whether HMG will underwrite these, in which case, queEnsbUry Rules might still apply.

[kenw]

re; richierich,

Yes, the "privatised" railways are certainly under much more direct political control than they ever were under BR

The editorial in the last Rail magazine talked much on responsibility and accountability, the present "system" seems designed for the politicians to give them the responsibility without accountability.

 

The MML and TP electrification projects may be officially paused, which most here seen to assume automatically means to CP6 or following on from GWML completion,

but there's been no commitment to this that I'm aware of, and given the scale of planned budget restrictions....

 

ECML electrification was "postponed" around 1960 - it actually happened 30 years later

 

 

edit; somehow lost mention of which editorial was being referred to when posted

[woodenhead]

But given much of the diesel traction currently moving around the Trans Pennine route is BR heritage and particular class of unit is to be banned from 2019/20 then this will mean a cascade of other units to replace those leaving a gap to fill.

 

Temporarily that gap or the Pacer replacement might be the 230 but ultimately new units will be required, building diesel units beyond the 230 seems to be looked badly upon which means wiring is the only option followed by cascade from the south or new builds (HS3) or a combination of the two.

[Mike Storey]

re; richierich,

Yes, the "privatised" railways are certainly under much more direct political control than they ever were under BR

The editorial in the last Rail magazine talked much on responsibility and accountability, the present "system" seems designed for the politicians to give them the responsibility without accountability.

 

The MML and TP electrification projects may be officially paused, which most here seen to assume automatically means to CP6 or following on from GWML completion,

but there's been no commitment to this that I'm aware of, and given the scale of planned budget restrictions....

 

ECML electrification was "postponed" around 1960 - it actually happened 30 years later

 

 

edit; somehow lost mention of which editorial was being referred to when posted

 

The postponement of both actually makes practical sense - I believe we should see some radical amendments to the original plans to incorporate a much revised HS2 scheme north of Sheffield, as proposed by my emerging hero, David Higgins (never "Call Me Dave", if you wanted to keep your job). Had both proceeded within their original remits, a more cohesive solution would have been lost. In effect, the curator of the MOSI has done the industry an unintended favour, by delaying the Ordsall Curve yet again, although many Trans-Pennine commuters will not see it that way in the short term!

[phil-b259]

The postponement of both actually makes practical sense - I believe we should see some radical amendments to the original plans to incorporate a much revised HS2 scheme north of Sheffield, as proposed by my emerging hero, David Higgins (never "Call Me Dave", if you wanted to keep your job). Had both proceeded within their original remits, a more cohesive solution would have been lost. In effect, the curator of the MOSI has done the industry an unintended favour, by delaying the Ordsall Curve yet again, although many Trans-Pennine commuters will not see it that way in the short term!

 

With regard to the Ordsall Curve - I don't see what this has to do with HS2 or George Osbournes HS3 ideas. The Ordsall curve is primarily designed to try and remove conflicting movements from the throat of Manchester Picadilly station. Indeed a better comparison of said curve would be with the new Borough Market Viaduct and Bermondsey dive under designed to eliminate the flat crossing moves and track sharing that was constraining Thameslink, South Eastern and Southern services.

 

All the objector has done is delay north west commuters from getting a better service and I for one am not impressed with his actions.

[Mike Storey]

With regard to the Ordsall Curve - I don't see what this has to do with HS2 or George Osbournes HS3 ideas. The Ordsall curve is primarily designed to try and remove conflicting movements from the throat of Manchester Picadilly station. Indeed a better comparison of said curve would be with the new Borough Market Viaduct and Bermondsey dive under designed to eliminate the flat crossing moves and track sharing that was constraining Thameslink, South Eastern and Southern services.

 

All the objector has done is delay north west commuters from getting a better service and I for one am not impressed with his actions.

 

The further appeal in effect delays the completion of the Northern Hub phase 1 and thus the whole trans-pennine project. BC1 relied almost entirely on the extra 700 trains per day that the OC allowed, and I doubt that has changed much since I was involved. Stiff the extra capacity and you make the rest of it a pipe dream.

[Richard E]

Both Midland Mainline and TPE electrification now given the go ahead again.

 

Manchester to York is expected to be completed by 2022.

 

The Midland Mainline will be electrified to Kettering and Corby by 2019 with Leicester, Derby Nottingham and Sheffield being completed by 2023.

[lmsforever]

Good news but I wonder what has been cut or deferred ,it will be interesting to see what stock is to be used Hitachi are  in the frame as are Bombardier ,this will mean that bidders for the franchiese ,s will know what to order regards rolling stock.I wonder what the next electrification projects will be Scotland seems to be going for a rolling project but what about England ,would be good to see the lines out of Marylebone dealt with as traffic is increasing on all routes with overcrowding a problem for most of the day.

[APOLLO]

Both Midland Mainline and TPE electrification now given the go ahead again.

 

Manchester to York is expected to be completed by 2022.

 

The Midland Mainline will be electrified to Kettering and Corby by 2019 with Leicester, Derby Nottingham and Sheffield being completed by 2023.

 

Damn - I was looking forward to riding the spare electric IEP's on the Wigan to Liverpool stoppers !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Is the Bolton (Lostock Jcn) to Wigan NW via Westhoughton electrification still on ?

 

Brit15

[phil-b259]

Good news but I wonder what has been cut or deferred ,it will be interesting to see what stock is to be used Hitachi are  in the frame as are Bombardier ,this will mean that bidders for the franchiese ,s will know what to order regards rolling stock.I wonder what the next electrification projects will be Scotland seems to be going for a rolling project but what about England ,would be good to see the lines out of Marylebone dealt with as traffic is increasing on all routes with overcrowding a problem for most of the day.

 

Don't get too much ahead of yourself - there is more than enough to be getting on with at the moment and the Trans-Pennine + MML will ensure electrification engineers / designer (plus their signalling colleagues will be far to busy to think about anything else.

 

Making plans at this stage - particularly detailed ones and even more particularly publicising them is foolhardy.

 

Yes the management of the Chiltern franchise have occasionally thought about the issue but rather sensibly take the stance that nobody is in a position to be making long term plans. They know that the Mk3s won't last forever but, as with Scotlands HST proposal they think they can be kept going for another decade or so which buys time before any decision needs to be made.

 

I think one of the key things with regard to Chiltern electrification is what happens to the Oxford - Birmingham plans, while announced as part of a freight initiative, it actually has far more relevance as a passenger artery. If this ever comes to fruition then Cross country (which could have dual voltage EMUs thus nullifying the wires finishing at Basignstoke issue) and Chiltern could both potentially benefit - which then makes wiring of the Ayho - Marylebone a possibility.

[brianusa]

So where does this leave the GW main?

 

Brian.

[phil-b259]

So where does this leave the GW main?

 

Brian.

 

As it was previously. When the Trans-Pennine and MML schemes were 'paused' the SoS said work was to continue on the GWML as fast as possible.

 

As others have pointed out, if the GWML is not ready for the IEP trains fairly soon the Government has to fork out a lot of money every month in expensive lease payments for brand new Hitachi stock sitting in sidings doing nothing.

[jamie92208]

Damn - I was looking forward to riding the spare electric IEP's on the Wigan to Liverpool stoppers !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Is the Bolton (Lostock Jcn) to Wigan NW via Westhoughton electrification still on ?

 

Brit15

As far ask I know it's still on as one of the later phases.  However the later phases are in a bit of a limbo at the moment as Balfour Beatty have withdrawn/been sacked from the job of installing the wires though they are still doing the design work.  I've no idea of anyone else has been appointed yet.

 

Jamie

[corneliuslundie]

What has not changed of course is the shortage of skills.

 

And I am not sure where it leaves the Valleys scheme. I have never been clear whether this is being progressed as part of the GW main line scheme or not, as it is separately funded.

 

Jonathan

[The Stationmaster]

Good news but I wonder what has been cut or deferred ,it will be interesting to see what stock is to be used Hitachi are  in the frame as are Bombardier ,this will mean that bidders for the franchiese ,s will know what to order regards rolling stock.I wonder what the next electrification projects will be Scotland seems to be going for a rolling project but what about England ,would be good to see the lines out of Marylebone dealt with as traffic is increasing on all routes with overcrowding a problem for most of the day.

If the dates quoted by Richard E are correct I think it means that parts of both Transpennine and MML have been put back to CP6 with (it appears) only MML to Kettering/Corby remaining in CP5.

 

According to the original CP5 information that puts back Kettering/Corby from 2017 to 2019, Derby& Nottingham back from 2019 to 2023 (i.e. into CP 6), and Sheffield back from 2020 to 2023.  It also seems to mean taht certain of the 'Electric Spine works might well be slipped/rescheduled, for example Sheffield to ECML was scheduled for completion in 2021.

 

I can't immediately find any dates for TransPennine east of Stalybridge.

[newbryford]

 

 

I can't immediately find any dates for TransPennine east of Stalybridge.

 

Is that where the original "Lancashire" finishes?

 

 

That would explain it...............

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[AMJ]

If MML is the same as it was a few years ago the stock will be cast offs replaced elsewhere by new stock.  East Anglia seem to get second hand stock as well.

[jamie92208]

Trans Pennine east of Stalybridge is due to be done to York by 2022 , obviously slipped into CP6 as well.  .I believe that the Victoria to Stalybridge was added on to the Lancashire bit for two reasons:-

 

1.   To allow trains to run through Victoria to turn back at Stalybridge to increase platform capacity at Victoria.

2.    To access a Grid feeder point that is being built just east of Stalybridge, I believe at the old Power station site.  This will give a lot of extra power that's needed as well as some redundancy.

 

Jamie

[luckymucklebackit]

........  East Anglia seem to get second hand stock as well.

 

Not always - they did get brand new Britannias after all!!

 

Jim