Should we build layouts for us...or for others...

[PaulRhB]

I think we should look at what else we can include in shows not what to take out. My personal thoughts are more high speed modern layouts to capture the modern high speed trains at speed, more of the different looking continental ones and some involving actual operation, multiple shunting puzzles with a purpose.

Not saying these should replace the other types but mix in and appeal to another part of the market as they are quite rare. I've not seen many that feature real high speed running like HS1.

[Reorte]

I think we should look at what else we can include in shows not what to take out. My personal thoughts are more high speed modern layouts to capture the modern high speed trains at speed, more of the different looking continental ones and some involving actual operation, multiple shunting puzzles with a purpose.

Not saying these should replace the other types but mix in and appeal to another part of the market as they are quite rare. I've not seen many that feature real high speed running like HS1.

Rather a hard thing to do justice to without a very large layout I feel, plus layouts almost inevitably concentrate on lower speed locations like yards and stations for greater operational interest. It might work in one of the smaller scales.

[Mark Forrest]

I think most exhibitions tend to include one or two "crowd pleaser" layouts that fit the roundy-roundy, something always moving description - whether they need to represent the current (or recent past) era I'm not so sure. While they serve a purpose they do nothing for me and I'd be put off from going to a show where the majority of the exhibits were of this type.

 

I think there is a need for the roundy-roundy crowd pleaser at exhibitions which aim to attract the general public. Perhaps the responsibility for building them should sit with the clubs who organise these shows?

 

Or maybe, taking it a stage further, the manufacturers who rely on new entrants to the hobby should provide (or sponsor) this sort of thing?

[Poggy1165]

I remember a coarse scale O Gauge layout I once saw exhibited. It was very simple, and there was certainly no opportunity for high speed or continuous running. However, the owner had put in full interlocked signalling, with proper frames, and I think even a level crossing. The stock was stuff he had built himself, not particularly highly detailed by modern standards, and a mixture of steam and diesel, with nothing more modern than a blue railcar.

 

He allowed visiting children to operate it under supervision, and they loved it! I can still recall the smiles.

 

There is a danger, I think, of being too prescriptive, or of making too many assumptions. Especially in an age when the railway is no longer a part of daily life, and young children may actually be more familiar with the Bluebell, or the Ravenglass and Eskdale, than with a Voyager.

[PaulRhB]

Rather a hard thing to do justice to without a very large layout I feel, plus layouts almost inevitably concentrate on lower speed locations like yards and stations for greater operational interest. It might work in one of the smaller scales.

As David, Bmthtrains did in his initial concepts for Ringroad Shame the idea never made it to reality but eurostars and Javelin's flashing past certainly looks impressive and the closest thing to the cool racing cars that still are cool

In OO it could be large or it could be circular . . . . .

[steve1]

Calcutta Sidings runs full length HSTs at speed and there are several 2mm layouts doing similar.

 

As for "sole style" exhibitions, it does work. TVNAM is all US and DEMU Showcase is all D&E but both of these shows are highly popular.

 

And I too have to agree to disagree with the statement about shunting planks being a waste of time. Not everyone has the inclination to build an "empire".

 

steve

[brianusa]

This is rather like the battle of the scales/gauges/toy layouts.  Obviously you build for yourself and what interests you.  However if you are talking exhibition, then it has all been said before.  While those same layouts you built may interest you, they may not interest the general public who have paid their entrance fee and want to  entertained, impressed and have somewhere to take the kids.  Parents are still under the impression that children today are interested in trains especially if they are at the 'choo choo' age.  Hopefully it may be Dad who may have some childhood memory and whose interest might be reignited! 

 

Here in the US, there are some huge HO layouts that feature multi tracks, super scenery and long trains that glide around at prototypical speed.  But you know where the crowds are including the kids; they are at the toy train layout with speedy trains, lots of bells and whistles (literally) and lots of action.  There are none of the shunting layouts as found in the UK; everybody wants action, no doubt as they remember their Dad's trains around the Christmas

Like most, I was given a Hornby clockwork layout at Christmas which started my interest in railways both model and the real thing.  Subsequently I have sampled many gauges and scales from N through LGB and finally settling on O gauge toy trains for their size and simplicity after years of worrying about authenticity and details in scale layouts.

 

Brian.

[John_Miles]

Together with several friends, I have over the last 30 years built finescale layouts, often of pre-grouping stations, which are painstakingly researched and which we make as accurate as our modelling abilities and eyesight allow. There obviously have to compromises in terms of space etc but generally they are reasonably accurate. The work involves a lot of scratch building and takes time. When we go to exhibtions, most of our work is wasted on the average punter. You get questions such as "What kit is that mister" etc. That said, we also get a lot of compliments from what you might call "hard core" modellers and we get a lot of satisfaction from that. We accept that our models don't appeal to everybody and I think that a model that pleases everybody is a pipe dream. So you might as well build what please you. After all building a model takes time and costs money.

[Boris]

[Clive Mortimore]

I build for myself, I have had layouts invited to shows and appeared in magazines. Last year I took my new layout to a show, semi finished but the exhibition manager knew the state of play. It is a small diesel depot set in the 1960s. It received quite a few favourable comments. Only one invite, which I declined. Now I am not bothered if it ever goes to another show or not, I built it for me. I am pleased when any of my work is invited to a show. I have never thought I must build something to entertain the public. If the visiting public and any visiting exhibition managers did not like it then that is their opinion. All I hope it did not have an adverse effect on this year's attendance at the show, I don't think it will as there were many good layouts as normal. 

 

 

Should I ever feel the need to build a layout to "entertain" it would be a four track mainline roundy-roundy. I would find a prototype location, either urban or countryside where there is two over bridges (or tunnel and bridge) spaced about 3 train lengths apart and on a slight curve. No station. Model it as close to the real location as possible. Run stock of the correct time period and region/railway/TOCs so that there is at least one or two trains running (this could be a little too intensive). Basicly do a Stoke Summit type layout, good modelling and loads of trains. Potentially boring to operate but look how long both the public and the puffer nutters will stay.

[Dagworth]

The fact is that only those who are involved with large clubs/groups can exhibit large layouts, as man power is needed to transport and show a layout

Is that so? I'd beg to differ. Both my layouts are one-man projects, the smaller one is 18'x10' and has been out to numerous shows, (Dagworth), the larger is 24'x12' and has been out three times so far. I am not part of a club, and our last outing with Ravensclyffe to RMweb Live at RICOH had a team of three of us. 

 

Andi

[PaulRhB]

Is that so? I'd beg to differ. Both my layouts are one-man projects, the smaller one is 18'x10' and has been out to numerous shows, (Dagworth), the larger is 24'x12' and has been out three times so far. I am not part of a club, and our last outing with Ravensclyffe to RMweb Live at RICOH had a team of three of us. 

That made me smile because I instantly thought of Ravensclffe and what your reaction would be, my own layout is tiny at only 21x10ft with a crew of 4 of us, the only club involved being the one to beat the operators with 

[Zomboid]

Everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do. Including, in some cases, the need to have a specific type of layout, rather than a burning desire to build that particular thing.

I find that, as a punter, there are a few types that I tend to walk straight past (TMDs in particular). It's up to exhibition managers to ensure that there is enough variety/ enough of the right things to satisfy the market that they're attempting to attract.

What they don't have control of is whether they're well operated.

I went to one show recently that seemed to be all about the traders, none of whom were selling American HO and were no use to me, and the few layouts that were there were either not to my taste or being operated in a rather dull manner. So I shan't be going to that one next year...

[Clive Mortimore]

Is that so? I'd beg to differ. Both my layouts are one-man projects, the smaller one is 18'x10' and has been out to numerous shows, (Dagworth), the larger is 24'x12' and has been out three times so far. I am not part of a club, and our last outing with Ravensclyffe to RMweb Live at RICOH had a team of three of us. 

 

Andi

Oi Badge

 

Stop rubbing it in, I was working, and very upset I could not help

[t-b-g]

It is very much up to the exhibition manager to choose a balanced mix of layouts. I don't subscribed to the idea that you have to have an all action high speed modern layout otherwise youngsters won't be engaged. I first got involved with exhibiting around 35 years ago and I have always found that the best way to get youngsters involved is to talk to them. Ask them about their layouts and modelling. Ask them if they like steam or diesel best. Ask them which of the trucks in your goods train looks naughty and should go in the naughty siding.

 

I often talk to exhibitors when I visit shows. My enjoyment of shows is often based, not on the quality of the modelling but on the quality of the operators. Some are genuinely pleased to be there and to talk about what they have done. Others are just having a weekend with their mates and the paying punters are merely an intrusion into their private world. 

 

With the amount of time and effort that it takes to build a layout, plus the work involved in moving it to a venue for a show, I certainly wouldn't want to build something just because it might please some people at a show but I do take exhibition aspects into consideration when designing them, if they are going to be (hopefully) exhibited. Things like lighting, height, display boards etc. all come into the design and planning. So some aspects of the layout may be built with a viewing public in mind rather than what I would do at home.

 

A number of my layouts only ever get operated at shows as I have nowhere to set them up at home. These do tend to be designed very much with exhibitions in mind. They are, however, layouts based on my interests and I try to build layouts that I would like to see myself if I attended a show. So they are still designed to please me rather than others.

 

As for charging for time and cost of layouts, most exhibitions are run by clubs to perhaps pay for clubrooms. I think most people are happy to support the hobby by bringing their layouts along with just expenses being covered. When it comes to the purely commercial corporate shows I have very mixed feelings. Here, we are not supporting fellow modellers to keep their clubs going. We are giving up our time and effort to boost the profits of businesses. In effect, we become unpaid, volunteer employees for the weekend.

 

Now if I was running a business and could get people to work for me for nothing, thereby boosting my profits, I would be on to an absolute winner. The people running these shows are paid for their efforts, unlike a club exhibition manager, who puts in many hours of work for the benefit of their club. So why shouldn't the exhibitors get paid for their time too?

[Mark Forrest]

It's up to exhibition managers to ensure that there is enough variety/ enough of the right things to satisfy the market that they're attempting to attract.

What they don't have control of is whether they're well operated.

I think most exhibition managers will tend to have seen the layout they have booked at another show, so should know what to expect (although that obviously doesn't stop a layout/operator having a bad day).

 

Depends how you define well operated though; prototypical running at scale speeds or anything goes as long as something is moving at all times.

[Zomboid]

We all have different views there. Personally I like to see action. So long as something is moving.

 

Though I'm not fussed about scale speed. I get bored watching a train take 5 minutes to travel 15 feet. And on one occasion I saw that, the fact that it crawled along was quite impressive, but the realism was destroyed by the multiple SPADs that it committed en route...

[Colin_McLeod]

Build to suit yourself. If the trade want to encourage new entrants to increase their profits,then let the trade finance whatever layouts they think will do that

[TEAMYAKIMA]

As for charging for time and cost of layouts, most exhibitions are run by clubs to perhaps pay for clubrooms. I think most people are happy to support the hobby by bringing their layouts along with just expenses being covered. When it comes to the purely commercial corporate shows I have very mixed feelings. Here, we are not supporting fellow modellers to keep their clubs going. We are giving up our time and effort to boost the profits of businesses. In effect, we become unpaid, volunteer employees for the weekend.

 

Now if I was running a business and could get people to work for me for nothing, thereby boosting my profits, I would be on to an absolute winner. The people running these shows are paid for their efforts, unlike a club exhibition manager, who puts in many hours of work for the benefit of their club. So why shouldn't the exhibitors get paid for their time too?

 

t-b-g

 

I couldn't agree with you more.

 

However, I am building a large layout (26x10) based on a minority interest (Chinese HO) and I accept that I may be too expensive for many shows and so I am reconciled that I may need to subsidise my exhibition outings out of my own pocket in order to get invites. I would be happy to subsidise my layout to support a club show, but I would not subsidise my layout to go to a professionally promoted show for the reasons you give.

 

Paul

[Mike Storey]

This is a thoughtful topic and set me wondering. Were exhibitions a big factor in my "decision" to take up the hobby?

 

The answer is, not really. There weren't that many shows back then. Few of my friends had any interest. No, the key driver was my Dad, both for modelling, which he started us both out on, and for the real thing, which he made sure we had plenty of exposure to. Railway Modeller, in black and white, kept me going later.

 

Even my daughter is interested in steam locos and old trains now, despite herself and to the consternation of her partner, due to her upbringing, and our new grandson is set for much the same brainwashing. Yes, he already has Thomas this and that, and the Brio train set is waiting in its box.

 

So, build and exhibit what you like. If the parents/grandparents don't have any interest then the children are less likely to, I suspect, whatever they see.

[rob D2]

I don't understand the maxim of ensuring the continuation of the hobby.

I model for fun , whether the hobby continues when I'm dead is of no consequence really, I don't feel any sort of crusade about it .

[Talltim]

I was reading to the end of the thread before posting, and I'm glad I did, because rob D2 has written what I think. (although maybe more bluntly than I would have!)

[Joseph_Pestell]

Most of us spend our working lives doing things that we don't much like doing to please other people. Our hobby should be a welcome relief from this. So we should build what we like and, hopefully, some others will like it as well.

 

As a former exhibition manager, I agree entirely with those who say that the key is having a variety of layouts. If all the layouts on show are large (as a modern era roundy-roundy in 4mm will be) that can only discourage newcomers to the hobby who don't have that sort of space at home, nor the necessary budget.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I don't understand the maxim of ensuring the continuation of the hobby.

I model for fun , whether the hobby continues when I'm dead is of no consequence really, I don't feel any sort of crusade about it .

I have absolutely no interest in getting into a debate on this particular issue, but just to say that I totally disagree ..... that's it, that's all ........ you won't change my mind as I won't change yours

[Dagworth]

Oi Badge

 

Stop rubbing it in, I was working, and very upset I could not help

We did miss you lots, there will be more chances, hopefully next time we can run pans up

 

A