Mikemeg's Workbench - Building locos of the North Eastern & LNER

[mikemeg]

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER G5

 

Another of those 'just rested' photos. With the smokebox/splashers just resting on the footplate and the boiler just resting between the tanks and the bunker cage just .....

 

At least the footplate steps are soldered to the underside of the footplate.

 

Does afford the opportunity to check that everything fits.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 20, 2018 by mikemeg

[Worsdell forever]

I don't know about anyone else but I'm glad those front steps are soldered on, that stay looked rather vulnerable.

[mikemeg]

I don't know about anyone else but I'm glad those front steps are soldered on, that stay looked rather vulnerable.

 

Yes, they are vulnerable but that's why the models, in this state, are stood on the cradles. I've bent too many footsteps, after soldering them up, by resting the loco superstructure on the footsteps. Especially after the weight has been added to the tanks, bunker, boiler, etc.

 

One departure I will make, for this, is to use some of Arthur's etched, riveted fillets to go just above each step.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 22, 2018 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER G5

 

Another set up photo prior to assembly with various sub-assemblies (smokebox front/front splashers, cab roof, bunker cage, etc) not yet fixed. The boiler/smokebox has been primed simply so that I can draw on it to mark the positions for the handrail stanchions, vacuum pipe unions, Ross pop safety valves, whistle, etc The locations of the boiler bands can also be marked on the sides of the boiler. Once drilled, the priming will be rubbed off to allow the boiler bands to be soldered on.

 

I added the chimney and dome just to see how much fettling of the seatings will be necessary; on the chimney none and just a little on the dome seating. It is amazing how much difference the proper seating of these items makes to a model.

 

As with the J25's, under the LNER the boilers on the G5's were progressively replaced by the 69a boiler which had fewer boiler bands than the original boiler and had the dome situated further back on the boiler. But the 69a boiler did not have a flush riveted smokebox; the rivets were very visible!

 

On a scratch built A6, which I built a few years ago, I used paper to make a riveted smokebox wrapper overlay. The rivets were pressed out over a sheet of cardboard, using a compass point, after which the paper was varnished, to preserve the rivet indentations, before being glued over the metal smokebox wrapper. This was necessary to avoid increasing the visible diameter of the smokebox.

 

This G5 smokebox is already the correct diameter but needs visible rivets?

 

One or two items, within the cab, will require scratch building i.e. the cab lockers located on the rear spectacle plate.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 23, 2018 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER G5

 

With all of the marking and drilling completed and the positions of the boiler bands marked where the marks are invisible - behind the tanks - then the boiler and smokebox can be returned to shiny brass before starting on adding the boiler bands and boiler details.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

[micklner]

Archer rivet decals for the Smokebox

[mikemeg]

Archer rivet decals for the Smokebox

 

Mick,

 

Sounds like a plan! Where are these decals obtainable and do these rivets come in suiatable sizes and spacings i.e around 1 mm apart?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER G5

 

I did wonder about the height of the cab on the model, as it is much lower than the top of the dome or the chimney. Anyway the drawings supplied in the kit and a side on photo of a G5 confirm that this is the case and that the model is correct. Also shows how shallow the curvature of the cab roof was on these locomotives. And the brass chimney, supplied in the kit, looks pretty well spot on for one of these locos, though the light on the photos of the model does make it appear more slender than it is..

 

Though the design, and hence the building of this kit, is quite different from the kits designed and produced by Arthur, it seems, nonetheless, a very good kit and certainly has stood the test of time. And I've still got another two of these to build and will very much enjoy doing so!!

 

The photo, below, was taken in 1956 when this loco was well over fifty years old and doesn't it look its age - sadly?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 23, 2018 by mikemeg

[Daddyman]

Mike, the smokebox isn't the correct diameter yet. There are three different diameters to the s.box on a late-period ex-NER engine - two you have already done, and these should be the same diameter as the s.box front. As I said in an earlier post, you then need to chamfer the s.box front to meet your top layer of wrapper, and then add another final (possibly riveted) wrapper of 5 thou or 3 thou, which stands proud of the s.box front and is set back half a mill or so from both the front and rear of the layer below. You are therefore right to follow your old idea of paper, or Mick's advice of Archer's - sheet AR88014 - with a further layer of wrapper. The Archer's are perfect spacing and relief for NER s.box wrappers and look far better than the swollen lumps that often result from punching. 

 

See, for what I mean by three layers, Yeadon page 60 bottom, 64 middle, 8 (albeit an F8), 28 top and bottom. You can sort of see what I mean in the photo below - how there is a step-up to the wrapper at the s.box front. 

 

 

Best, 

David. 

Edited January 23, 2018 by Daddyman

[mikemeg]

Mike, the smokebox isn't the correct diameter yet. There are three different diameters to the s.box on a late-period ex-NER engine - two you have already done, and these should be the same diameter as the s.box front. As I said in an earlier post, you then need to chamfer the s.box front to meet your top layer of wrapper, and then add another final (possibly riveted) wrapper of 5 thou or 3 thou, which stands proud of the s.box front and is set back half a mill or so from both the front and rear of the layer below. You are therefore right to follow your old idea of paper, or Mick's advice of Archer's - sheet AR88014 - with a further layer of wrapper. The Archer's are perfect spacing and relief for NER s.box wrappers and look far better than the swollen lumps that often result from punching. 

 

See, for what I mean by three layers, Yeadon page 60 bottom, 64 middle, 8 (albeit an F8), 28 top and bottom. You can sort of see what I mean in the photo below - how there is a step-up to the wrapper at the s.box front. 

 

P1050083small.jpg

 

Best, 

David. 

 

David,

 

Many thanks for this.

 

However the G5 kit, which is featured in this build and which is one of the original George Norton kits, actually has a one piece boiler/smokebox, turned out of tube and with the three levels of the smokebox turned up. At the smokebox end the metal is well over 1 mm thick and is a real b----r to drill. The instructions, brief as they are (these are the original George Norton instructions and not the much more comprehensive instruction set now supplied) does advise chamfering the smokebox front as you also suggest.

 

Even with the one piece turned boiler/smokebox however, the model does need that final 3 or 5 thou layer standing proud from the smokebox front and, on which, the front and rear rows of rivets are present.

 

Once again, David, many thanks for the advice.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Daddyman]

You're welcome, Mike! 

 

By the way, do you find there is some advantage in spraying primer to reveal marking out lines, rather than marking with a Sharpie? 

[micklner]

Mick,

 

Sounds like a plan! Where are these decals obtainable and do these rivets come in suiatable sizes and spacings i.e around 1 mm apart?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Mike

      Archers are cheapest direct from Archers in the USA , good service and normally arrive in less than a week.

      I use AR88001 and AR88015 on my models , have look on their website for which sheet suits your needs. Historex sell them in the UK. They are not cheap but good quality.

      I always use them on light shade painted surfaces , otherwise they won't stick on bare metal and impossible to see on dark surfaces.

[ArthurK]

I general terms the inside height of NER cabs with low arc roofs was 7' (give or take a little). The F8 (NER A)  cab  has a lot in common with the G5 insomuch as the dimensions of the cab side sheets were identical, the GA for that gives 7'. 

 

The external overall diameter of the smokebox was  a shade over 5' (5[' 0 1/2" if my memory is correct). If you need an extra layer you could use the one left over from your J25 build. If you used the riveted version there will be a second half etched layer available from that. It should be about 0.4mm from and from back of the smokebox  proper.

 

ArthurK

Edited January 23, 2018 by ArthurK

[mikemeg]

You're welcome, Mike! 

 

By the way, do you find there is some advantage in spraying primer to reveal marking out lines, rather than marking with a Sharpie? 

 

David,

 

I wanted a method which would allow me to draw lines rather than mark them as the markings on the boiler would have been difficult to erase. These were guide lines for the handrail stanchions, the boiler top centre line, etc. By using the primer I was able to draw the lines rather than mark them into the metal which allowed their removal very easily once all of the marking and drilling was done.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

I general terms the inside height of NER cabs with low arc roofs was 7' (give or take a little). The F8 (NER A)  cab  has a lot in common with the G5 insomuch as the dimensions of the cab side sheets were identical, the GA for that gives 7'. 

 

The external overall diameter of the smokebox was  a shade over 5' (5[' 0 1/2" if my memory is correct). If you need an extra layer you could use the one left over from your J25 build. If you used the riveted version there will be a second half etched layer available from that. It should be about 0.4mm from and from back of the smokebox  proper.

 

ArthurK

 

Many thanks, Arthur,

 

The cab dimensions you quote do match up with the model. I think the smokebox would benefit from a further layer and a half etched layer will almost certainly do the job. I'm pursuaded that the Archer rivets are the best way of representing the rivets if they are not present or cannot be punched out on the wrapper.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 23, 2018 by mikemeg

[micklner]

Mike

        Archer Rivets in use, on this page (at the bottom) from my workbench.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/943-lner-models-in-4mm/page-20

[mikemeg]

Mike

        Archer Rivets in use, on this page (at the bottom) from my workbench.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/943-lner-models-in-4mm/page-20

 

Mick,

 

Very impressive! I'm persuaded so Archer rivets it will be. Many thanks for the info and the reference to your O4/8 using these rivets.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 23, 2018 by mikemeg

[Daddyman]

The advantage of the pack I recommended is that it has more of the size and spacing you need for smokebox wrappers. I believe Mick's are general packs, with more variety but less of each size and spacing. 

 

I'd like to know how Mick gets them to stick. I used Transfix with my first loads and I got rivets that stuck, but which were impossible to move to around to locate. Then I read the instructions (!) and used water, which allowed me to move the rivets around on the model, but then they wouldn't stick. Any thoughts, Mick? 

[micklner]

Microset , don't touch them !! Light coat of Primer  on top next morning, redo any if needed , then top coat asap to seal them.

[mikemeg]

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER G5

 

Another layer of wrapping has been added to the smokebox, using the spare wrapper from Arthur's J25 kit as he suggested above. This will need 'rivetting' but again, using MickLNER and Daddyman's advice, Archer rivet decals will be used. The smokebox will now have to be re-drilled for the handrail stanchions and the vacuum pipe union.

 

The smokebox now does slightly more than match the diameter of the front smokebox plate, so would seem now to be more accurate. Certainly the very visible 'step up' in diameters between boiler and smokebox looks better - nominally 6" as per Arthur's posting, so a 4' 6 1/2" diameter boiler would have a 5' 0 1/2" diameter smokebox, all dimensions over the cladding. So a prominent feature of NER locomotives, is now much more apparent on the model.

 

The brass chimney, shown in the photos and part of the kit, is actually hollow throughout, which suggests that it isn't a casting but is turned up. Either way, it really is a very nice representation of the G5's chimney.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 24, 2018 by mikemeg

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike,

 

I don't know how old you kit is, but the chimney sounds like one of the George Norton turned ones. The supply of these ceased sometime after LRM took adopted the GN range, so turned chimneys and domes were used as pattern masters for the later cast ones. The castings were initially w/m, later lost wax brass.

 

Jol

[mikemeg]

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER G5

 

The boiler/smokebox has now been fixed to the smokebox front/splasher assembly after fitting the bands to the boiler. Now to add some weight to the side tanks and to the smokebox and front section of the boiler.

 

It would be very good if the centre of gravity could be established somewhere between the two sets of driving wheels.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 24, 2018 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

Mike,

 

I don't know how old you kit is, but the chimney sounds like one of the George Norton turned ones. The supply of these ceased sometime after LRM took adopted the GN range, so turned chimneys and domes were used as pattern masters for the later cast ones. The castings were initially w/m, later lost wax brass.

 

Jol

 

Jol,

 

The kit is one of George Norton's Connoisseurs Choice range, so probably produced before LRM adopted this range. I bought this kit from Arthur in untouched condition, so Arthur would know when he bought it. There is a white metal cast chimney in the kit, as well as the turned brass one.

 

The instructions are GN's original set; fairly brief and obviously assuming a fair degree of experience from the builder as there are very few assembly diagrams.

 

So, this kit is somewhere between the test builds (none or very few instructions) and more recent kits where the instructions are very comprehensive and liberally illustrated with diagrams.

 

Still very enjoyable to build and seems to work well.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 24, 2018 by mikemeg

[ArthurK]

Jol,

 

The kit is one of George Norton's Connoisseurs Choice range, so probably produced before LRM adopted this range. I bought this kit from Arthur in untouched condition, so Arthur would know when he bought it. There is a white metal cast chimney in the kit, as well as the turned brass one.

 

The instructions are GN's original set; fairly brief and obviously assuming a fair degree of experience from the builder as there are very few assembly diagrams.

 

So, this kit is somewhere between the test builds (none or very few instructions) and more recent kits where the instructions are very comprehensive and liberally illustrated with diagrams.

 

Still very enjoyable to build and seems to work well.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

That kit was purchased from George Norton in person. I am not sure when he died but it would be 2-3 years before that. I know that I had plans to build it as a push-pull fitted loco to operate on my Teesdale layout to replace my ageing scratch built G5 of 1965.. 

 

 

 

ArthurK

[drmditch]

Please excuse a question that I should perhaps have researched more.

 

When did Darlington Works start using the (snaphead?) rivets that show so prominently on smokeboxes in BR times?

 

I had assumed it was mid to late 40's.