Mikemeg's Workbench - Building locos of the North Eastern & LNER

[mikemeg]

Mike, how to you transfer the movements down to the board (presuming these are operational?).  With the number of arms, there are a lot of moving parts on top of each other and it gets beyond practical (to me anyway!).

 

That is something which I still haven't fathomed out. The first set of challenges was to work out how to build these different lattice structures, given that there were a huge number of variations on the basic lattice girder design. The problems of the building of these, in 4 mm, have now largely been solved. Also, whereas with upper quadrants, even in 4 mm scale, gravity will do some of the work, especially if the arm bearings are very free, with lower quadrants then they have to be, effectively, pushed off.

 

Assembling and accommodating the various wire linkages, along the decking, is the challenge which is being addressed now.

 

How to drive something with twelve, fourteen, sixteen or even more working arms is then the next challenge. I can't imagine a 'bank' of twelve, fourteen, sixteen or more Tortoise motors sitting under the baseboard to drive one of these signal installations, so small solenoids or even memory wire actuators might well be the way to go. I've heard varying reports of the effectiveness of memory wire, especially if the ambient temperature is liable to quite large fluctuations.

 

Anyway, someone, somewhere must also have looked at these problems and I would be very interested to hear how they solved them, though probably on the topic area concerned with modelling signalling installations rather than on this thread.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited November 28, 2017 by mikemeg

[Portchullin Tatty]

Hi Mike, thanks for the reply!!

 

I can offer some steers from my experience:

• with regard to the powering of the signals, there is only one sensible route and that is servos.  The Towerpro SG90s are pretty small and it is possible to get even smaller servos.  If you go to either my RMweb workbench thread or my external blog (www/highlandmiscellany.com and then go for the "signals" tag) you can see how I do this.
• I have found that the maximum number of balance levers/elbows that can be made to work on a single pivot is three - and even this is a push.  That means you can get six on a post but not more.  
• It is possible to cheat a bit by using stiff wire and actually bypassing the levers and even on occasions the elbows.  This is visible if you look hard, but this maybe worth the sacrifice to get a complicated signal going.
• Eddie Ford has used fishing line on Blackgill, along with some miniature return springs (I think, I can't see that he does it just on the weight of the arm).  Again, you can see this if you look, but I am will to bet few knew...........

So I would be interested to see how you do!!  I must confront mine - which is a 9 movement gantry with a rather nice fan route indicator.

 

 

 

Mark

[mikemeg]

Hi Mike, thanks for the reply!!

 

I can offer some steers from my experience:

• with regard to the powering of the signals, there is only one sensible route and that is servos.  The Towerpro SG90s are pretty small and it is possible to get even smaller servos.  If you go to either my RMweb workbench thread or my external blog (www/highlandmiscellany.com and then go for the "signals" tag) you can see how I do this.
• I have found that the maximum number of balance levers/elbows that can be made to work on a single pivot is three - and even this is a push.  That means you can get six on a post but not more.  
• It is possible to cheat a bit by using stiff wire and actually bypassing the levers and even on occasions the elbows.  This is visible if you look hard, but this maybe worth the sacrifice to get a complicated signal going.
• Eddie Ford has used fishing line on Blackgill, along with some miniature return springs (I think, I can't see that he does it just on the weight of the arm).  Again, you can see this if you look, but I am will to bet few knew...........

So I would be interested to see how you do!!  I must confront mine - which is a 9 movement gantry with a rather nice fan route indicator.

 

 

 

Mark

 

Mark,

 

Many thanks for a comprehesive and very informative reply.

 

I will reply to your posting but can I suggest that I do this on the Permanent Way, Signalling and Infrastructure Topic Area, rather than on here. I suspect (and hope) that this discussion will fare better on that thread and might then serve to involve other signal builders who might not read this thread.

 

Regards

 

Mike

Edited November 30, 2017 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

LNER B16/1

 

At some point in the not to distant future, I hope to do another test build on the B16/1. This one will be with the LNER 49a boiler and with the plain splashers of one of the last fifteen B16's to be built.

 

Anyway, though not having the plain splashers, the loco in this photo does appear to have the 49a boiler (distinguished by the dome being further back than on the original boilers). And just check out the state of the front footplate section, sitting at a jaunty angle to the centre section.

 

The photo is courtesy Mick Nicholson.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 12, 2018 by mikemeg

[Dave Holt]

Mike,

If you look closely, the main footplate above the RH cylinder also slopes down to the front and to the outside. Presumably, this has pushed the vertical leg down, taking the front with it. The valance angle is quite substantial, so it must have taken quite a wallop to bend it like that.

I do very much enjoy reading about your builds, even though I have no real interest in ex-NER locos. Looking forward to the next project.

Dave.

[drmditch]

I suppose that footplate is the kind of prototypical feature that is impossible to model (At least by intention!)

A similar problem occurs with tender tank sides not being flat.

 

Perhaps the eye expects models to be 'more like the real thing' than 'the real thing'!

.

[Horsetan]

• Eddie Ford has used fishing line on Blackgill, along with some miniature return springs (I think, I can't see that he does it just on the weight of the arm).  Again, you can see this if you look, but I am will to bet few knew...........

 

Reminds me of Frank Dyer's use of cotton thread on "Borchester Market" signals; I think only the ground discs used return springs or strategically-placed balance weights; everything else was gravity-return.

[mikemeg]

LNER B16/1

 

And here's another photo of another B16/1 with exactly the same 'feature' on the front footplate section. This photo is Ocober 1960 when this loco was stored at Hull Springhead, with several of its sister locomotives, after the 1960 summer timetable and was subsequently scrapped. The photo is courtesy Mick Nicholson.

 

And re posting #631 above, just look at the tender side with its various slight deviations from the flat!!

 

I can still remember one Sunday afternoon 'foray', which I and one of my youthful mates made, to try and relieve one or two of these B16's of their smokebox numberplates and shedplates, knowing that these locos were destined for the cutter's torch.

 

We went into Springhead wagon works and came out with a variety of spanners and lengths of tube (to increase the torque; we'd just started doing Applied Maths!!) to try and move the fixing nuts; all to no avail for nothing would shift. It would be another few years before we learned of the existence of angle grinders!!

 

Anyway we returned the spanners and the lengths of tube to the works and left, disappointed. The B16's remained intact, spared the indignity of being 'defaced' by youthful enthusiasts!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 12, 2018 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

 LNER B16/1

 

Mike,

If you look closely, the main footplate above the RH cylinder also slopes down to the front and to the outside. Presumably, this has pushed the vertical leg down, taking the front with it. The valance angle is quite substantial, so it must have taken quite a wallop to bend it like that.

I do very much enjoy reading about your builds, even though I have no real interest in ex-NER locos. Looking forward to the next project.

Dave.

 

Dave,

 

Firstly many thanks for the kind words; very much appreciated.

 

Re your comment, quoted above, and more surpisingly, the footplate under the cab also appears to be slightly out of line. Judging by the number on the bufferbeam and by a faintly discernable LNER on the tender, this photo must be late 1940's, just possibly very early 1950's, so this loco soldiered on; it was withdrawn in May, 1961.

 

Like so many classes, all of these went long before the preservation movements got going. One of these on the NYMR might have been quite a sight!!!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 12, 2018 by mikemeg

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J25

 

And back to the J25, after waiting for the delivery of an order for various paints. The cab interior has been painted cream and then 'muckied up' a little, after which a photo taken before the cab roof is fixed in position. Now for the rest of the painting; and this one will be done in a fairly weatherworn state!

 

Those small gaps, under the coal rails, will disappear with a coat of weathered black. Looking at photos of the real things, especially when they were 'in their dotage', perhaps we shouldn't worry so much about the odd tiny gap or linear inaccuracy!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 12, 2018 by mikemeg

[Jol Wilkinson]

And here's another photo of another B16/1 with exactly the same 'feature' on the front footplate section. This photo is Ocober 1960 when this loco was stored at Hull Springhead, with several of its sister locomotives, after the 1960 summer timetable and was subsequently scrapped. The photo is courtesy Mick Nicholson.

 

And re posting #631 above, just look at the tender side with its various slight deviations from the flat!!

 

I can still remember one Sunday afternoon 'foray', which I and one of my youthful mates made, to try and relieve one or two of these B16's of their smokebox numberplates and shedplates, knowing that these locos were destined for the cutter's torch.

 

We went into Springhead wagon works and came out with a variety of spanners and lengths of tube (to increase the torque; we'd just started doing Applied Maths!!) to try and move the fixing nuts; all to no avail for nothing would shift. It would be another few years before we learned of the existence of angle grinders!!

 

Anyway we returned the spanners and the lengths of tube to the works and left, disappointed. The B16's remained intact, spared the indignity of being 'robbed' by youthful enthusiasts!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Mike,

 

the artwork for the new LRM B16 49a boiler has gone off for test etching. It includes an extra, EM and P4 friendly, footplate. So there will be two in the kit, giving the opportunity for experimenting with building a bent one.

 

Jol

[mikemeg]

Mike,

 

the artwork for the new LRM B16 49a boiler has gone off for test etching. It includes an extra, EM and P4 friendly, footplate. So there will be two in the kit, giving the opportunity for experimenting with building a bent one.

 

Jol

 

Jol,

 

From photographic evidence, by 1950 (the timescale of my models) a bent footplate was a 'standard' feature of the B16/1's. So with the two different boilers, your kit can now be built far more accurately in its depiction of these locomotives. And the provision of multiple footplates - allowing experimentation with bending one - is a masterstroke, on your part.

 

Many thanks for the posting, Jol, and I'll very much look forward to another B16/1 build.

 

Regards

 

Mike

Edited December 12, 2017 by mikemeg

[Worsdell forever]

A quick question for Mike and Arthur, what are the options for the boiler on the J25? I would be building it as a P1 but I see this one is of the later 67A type with the dome further back and one less boiler band.

[mikemeg]

A quick question for Mike and Arthur, what are the options for the boiler on the J25? I would be building it as a P1 but I see this one is of the later 67A type with the dome further back and one less boiler band.

 

Paul,

 

The actual boiler wrapper, which was supplied with the test etches, represented the original boiler as per a P1.

 

As I wanted the later 67a boiler, I filled the original holes for the dome and the 'trumpet' safety valve cover with brass rod filed back to profile, as well as filling the holes for the clack valves, and re-drilled the boiler for the later dome position and for Ross pop safety valves fitted directly to he top of the firebox. I also re-marked the flat boiler wrapper with new boiler band positions for the later boiler, with one less band.

 

So I 'fiddled' on the test build to represent my mid-1950 timescale.

 

Your requirement (original 67 boiler) will be met, totally, by the kit as it will be supplied as will my later (67a boiler) requirement. The smokebox wrappers (both saturated and superheated) also provide for either flush rivets or visible rivets as they have the rivet positions half etched on the reverse side to be punched out (as I did), if required.

 

From what I have seen Arthur has pretty well covered all of the options on the NER P1, the LNER and BR J25.

 

Regards

 

Mike

Edited December 12, 2017 by mikemeg

[Worsdell forever]

Paul,

 

The actual boiler wrapper, which was supplied with the test etches, represented the original boiler as per a P1.

 

As I wanted the later 67a boiler, I filled the original holes for the dome and the 'trumpet' safety valve cover with brass rod filed back to profile and re-drilled the boiler for the later dome position and for Ross pop safety valves. I also re-marked the flat boiler wrapper with new boiler band positions for the later boiler, with one less band.

 

So I fiddled on the build to represent my mid-1950 timescale. Your requirement (original 67 boiler) is met, totally, by the kit as it will be supplied as will my later (67a boiler) requirement.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

Thanks Mike, I thought it would do the original as the P/J24 did, it's just I don't remember you mentioning it, unless I missed it...

[mikemeg]

Thanks Mike, I thought it would do the original as the P/J24 did, it's just I don't remember you mentioning it, unless I missed it...

 

I overlooked this point, Paul, when I did the build, so no, you didn't miss it. The brake linkage may also have been changed, during the lives of these locomotives, from the two side pull rods to the later centrally mounted compensated pull rod?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER B16/1

 

Mike,

 

the artwork for the new LRM B16 49a boiler has gone off for test etching. It includes an extra, EM and P4 friendly, footplate. So there will be two in the kit, giving the opportunity for experimenting with building a bent one.

 

Jol

 

So just as a reminder, this is the test build of the original Steve Barnfield / LRM B16/1 kit. The adding of lubricators and the painting of this model was suspended to do the J25 test build so after that completion, this can now proceed along with completing the two J72's.

 

The new parts will allow the later LNER designed boiler to be modelled and the plain splasher sides of the last fifteen B16/1's which were all built under the auspices of the LNER in 1923/24. This covers all of the various options present on the NER S3's / LNER & BR B16/1's throughout their lives.

 

From the photo of 61462, above, the flatter smokebox door must have been present, on at least one locomotive, until BR days.

 

And, therefore, a perfectly valid excuse to build another one of these locos; like I need an excuse!!

 

And then there are the three G5's and a Q5/1 to build.

 

And then I want to build an ex Hull & Barnsley F3; later LNER and BR N13. These were the only ex Hull & Barnsley locos which passed into British Railways ownership.

 

And then there is an ex GC 4-6-0 .....

 

And then .........

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 12, 2018 by mikemeg

[ArthurK]

Mike built his J25 from the first test etches. The production etches will have very small blind holes on the outside of the boiler. Putting these on the inside would make drilling them difficult (impossible in the case of the clack valves). The builder can choose the ones that they need, clack valves, and alternative holes for the dome and safety valves (single central  hole for Ramsbottom or Ross pop with base or twin holes for Ross pops direct on firebox top). Unwanted holes are easily filled with a touch of solder. Alternative markers on bottom provide for the different boiler band locations on 67 and 67A boilers  

 

There are alternative smokeboxes for saturated and superheated variants. Each of these latter have  an alternative outer wrappers for late LNER or BR riveted version. The only one not specifically covered in the original wrapper which was attached via an angle to the front plate and exhibited a square corner. The builder can cheat pushing the outer wrapper forward to be flush with the inner. We are only talking about 0.3mm.

 

The cab has a lot more cab detail than my earlier kits and includes (in addition to the reverse lever)  the draincock lever and rod and front sanding lever and firebox damper. I suspect that many may find these too fiddly and may choose to omit them but they are there as an option. The upper cab "boxes" are replaced by shelves as on the original.

 

Time-scale for this is now scheduled for Feb/Mar 2018

 

ArthurK

[sp1]

So just as a reminder, this is the test build of the original Steve Barnfield/LRM B16/1 kit. The painting of this model was suspended to do the J25 test build so after that completion, this can now proceed along with the two J72's.

 

The new parts will allow the later LNER designed boiler to be modelled and the plain splasher sides of the last fifteen B16/1's which were all built under the auspices of the LNER in 1923/24.

 

From the photo of 61462, above, the flatter smokebox door must have been present, on at least one locomotive, until BR days.

 

And, therefore, a perfectly valid excuse to build another one of these locos; like I need an excuse!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

There is something beautiful about brass kits that makes it almost a shame to paint them....

[mikemeg]

There is something beautiful about brass kits that makes it almost a shame to paint them....

 

There certainly is but, alas, the brass can tarnish quite quickly. I have left models unpainted for a couple of years or more and, provided they stay in a reasonably dry atmosphere, then they do remain 'quite shiny' for quite a while.

 

The B16/1 will, though, be painted over the next week or two. To retain a brass one, I shall just have to build another!!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Rob Pulham]

Hi Mike,

 

Ironically I have just won another Gladiator B16 kit, so like you I shall be building another - mine will go the opposite way though, I will be building it as an LNER example.

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J25

 

Perhaps a better photo of the cab interior of the J25. This being a test build then all of the details, which Arthur has included for the cab interior, have been fitted.

 

With a little care and, most importantly, assembling the cab interior on something which will prevent small pieces 'diving for cover on the carpet' i.e. a tray with sides on it, then the assembly of this is doable. I managed to do this without resorting to the magnifying glass though for how much longer the eyesight will hold up I have no idea!

 

Hopefully the 'scruffing up' of the cab paint looks realistic?

 

Just for comparison the second photo shows the cab interior of Arthur's earlier J24 kit.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited January 12, 2018 by mikemeg

[Compound2632]

Hopefully a better photo of the cab interior of the J25. This being a test build then all of the details, which Arthur has included for the cab interior, have been fitted.

 

With a little care and, most importantly, assembling the cab interior on something which will prevent small pieces 'diving for cover on the carpet' i.e. a tray with sides on it, then the assembly of this is possible.

 

Hopefully the 'scruffing up' of the cab paint looks realistic?

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

I wouldn't have the skill, patience to detail a cab to that level - possibly I'd struggle with eyesight too - so please excuse an armchair question: is the reversing lever really supposed to be that tall?

[mikemeg]

I wouldn't have the skill, patience to detail a cab to that level - possibly I'd struggle with eyesight too - so please excuse an armchair question: is the reversing lever really supposed to be that tall?

 

I can't speak on skill but I can say that I do have a modicum of patience.

 

I did ask Arthur the same question and his answer was 'yes, they were very tall; simply to achieve the necessary leverage.'

 

Have to confess though that it does look tall.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[rowanj]

That's a really useful photo of the cab interior, Mike, and a credit to the kit builder and designer. I'm currently working on the LRM version, which,as far as I can tell, provides only the backhead. Though I doubt I'll go as far as you, it certainly needs seats and the vey conspicuous reversing lever.

 

John

Edited December 13, 2017 by rowanj